Introduction

[dridhamati]

Hi Kamalavajri,

Am very appreciative of the time you are making for me.

Thank you, it's both pleasure and learning here.

Will keep direct experiencing and respond when I come back if not.

Ok.

Have a good weekend if we don't 'talk' before.

All the best
Dridhamati

[Kamalavajri]

Hi again, Dridhamati - hope my use of the quote function has improved.
Re: Can the start of the chain of thoughts be found? - No, it just seems to start when it starts in the present.
Was there a controller behind the thoughts? - A decision was taken/arrived to say those thoughts but that it was made by a controller is an assumption.
Can this controller be identified/located? - Only in the assumption of a "self".
How long do these thoughts last? - not very long
Is this what "you" decided? - These thoughts don't come from "me", they are borrowed from elsewhere.
Is this "knowing" what comes next? - only in a mechanical way.

Re: House of cards - sorry, drawing a blank here.

Re: Part 3 - is there a mug? - There is something that may temporarily be used for liquid to be poured into and sipped out of, until it changes (e.g. chips/breaks) and this ceases to be possible. But then I suppose it wouldn't be a mug then. So, yes I guess there is a mug.

Re: Directly experiencing other things -
Scarf - Soft and light to touch.Colour and pattern to see.
Drink - Cold and wet to touch. Slopping sounds to hear. Tangy and sweet to taste
Man - Movement, colour and shape to see. Voice and tone of voice to hear.
Train - Vibration to feel. Movement,colours, shapes, light and shadow to see. Rumbling, whining and voices to hear. Chips to smell.

NB There have been some strong dreams recently. Being chased by men who are trying to kill me and some women friends, my purse being stolen, watching mountains dissolve into snow and disappear!

Thanks and look forward to hearing from you. Kamalavajri

Hi Kamalavajri,

Am very appreciative of the time you are making for me.

Thank you, it's both pleasure and learning here.

Will keep direct experiencing and respond when I come back if not.

Ok.

Have a good weekend if we don't 'talk' before.

All the best
Dridhamati

[dridhamati]

Hi Kamalavajri,

Re: Can the start of the chain of thoughts be found? - No, it just seems to start when it starts in the present.
Was there a controller behind the thoughts? - A decision was taken/arrived to say those thoughts but that it was made by a controller is an assumption.
Can this controller be identified/located? - Only in the assumption of a "self".
How long do these thoughts last? - not very long
Is this what "you" decided? - These thoughts don't come from "me", they are borrowed from elsewhere.
Is this "knowing" what comes next? - only in a mechanical way.

So, to resume from these and previous observations, thoughts -formulaic or not- seem to appear without a “you”, without a “Kamalavajri” involved in the process. Even the "mechanical way" is assumed, yes?
Is there agreement?

Re: Part 3 - is there a mug? - There is something that may temporarily be used for liquid to be poured into and sipped out of, until it changes (e.g. chips/breaks) and this ceases to be possible. But then I suppose it wouldn't be a mug then. So, yes I guess there is a mug.

So there is is no essence that is mug, yet there is a mug. There is no such entity as “mug”, only a mug so you and I, and others can communicate the concept, and drink from it.
Is there agreement?

Re: Directly experiencing other things -
Scarf - Soft and light to touch.Colour and pattern to see.
Drink - Cold and wet to touch. Slopping sounds to hear. Tangy and sweet to taste
Man - Movement, colour and shape to see. Voice and tone of voice to hear.
Train - Vibration to feel. Movement,colours, shapes, light and shadow to see. Rumbling, whining and voices to hear. Chips to smell.

This is good observing, thank you.
Now, putting aside the quality of the observed sensations, which aren't the same, in terms of direct experience what is inherently different between a scarf, a drink, a man, a train ... and a mug?

Re: House of cards - sorry, drawing a blank here.
NB There have been some strong dreams recently. Being chased by men who are trying to kill me and some women friends, my purse being stolen, watching mountains dissolve into snow and disappear!

Let’s leave this aside for the moment and come back to it later if it is still relevant. OK?

All the best
Dridhamati

[Kamalavajri]

Hi Kamalavajri,

Re: Can the start of the chain of thoughts be found? - No, it just seems to start when it starts in the present.
Was there a controller behind the thoughts? - A decision was taken/arrived to say those thoughts but that it was made by a controller is an assumption.
Can this controller be identified/located? - Only in the assumption of a "self".
How long do these thoughts last? - not very long
Is this what "you" decided? - These thoughts don't come from "me", they are borrowed from elsewhere.
Is this "knowing" what comes next? - only in a mechanical way.

So, to resume from these and previous observations, thoughts -formulaic or not- seem to appear without a “you”, without a “Kamalavajri” involved in the process. Even the "mechanical way" is assumed, yes?
Is there agreement?

Yes there is agreement

Re: Part 3 - is there a mug? - There is something that may temporarily be used for liquid to be poured into and sipped out of, until it changes (e.g. chips/breaks) and this ceases to be possible. But then I suppose it wouldn't be a mug then. So, yes I guess there is a mug.

So there is is no essence that is mug, yet there is a mug. There is no such entity as “mug”, only a mug so you and I, and others can communicate the concept, and drink from it.
Is there agreement?

Yes there is agreement

Re: Directly experiencing other things -
Scarf - Soft and light to touch.Colour and pattern to see.
Drink - Cold and wet to touch. Slopping sounds to hear. Tangy and sweet to taste
Man - Movement, colour and shape to see. Voice and tone of voice to hear.
Train - Vibration to feel. Movement,colours, shapes, light and shadow to see. Rumbling, whining and voices to hear. Chips to smell.

This is good observing, thank you.
Now, putting aside the quality of the observed sensations, which aren't the same, in terms of direct experience what is inherently different between a scarf, a drink, a man, a train ... and a mug?

No there is nothing inherently different

Re: House of cards - sorry, drawing a blank here.
NB There have been some strong dreams recently. Being chased by men who are trying to kill me and some women friends, my purse being stolen, watching mountains dissolve into snow and disappear!

Let’s leave this aside for the moment and come back to it later if it is still relevant. OK?

After my last post, I realised I had missed one of your questions:
Who or what wants to be different than a mug?
This came in response to seeing what is perceived of a mug and thinking that this applied to "me". I tried to sense what was giving a sense of "me". It seemed to be a history plus repetitive/defining habits which gave a sense of weight or solidity (or am I theorising?)

All the best
Dridhamati

[dridhamati]

Hi Kamalavajri,

Yes there is agreement

Thank you.
Now, staying with thoughts, and general activity of the mind. Observing this activity, general thoughts, more focused ideas, concepts, views, etc. no agency, or controller could be found. But:
can a “self”, an “essence of Kamalavajri” be found in all this activity?

Yes there is agreement

Thank you.

No there is nothing inherently different

Thank you. That is also the experience here.

After my last post, I realised I had missed one of your questions:
Who or what wants to be different than a mug?
This came in response to seeing what is perceived of a mug and thinking that this applied to "me". I tried to sense what was giving a sense of "me". It seemed to be a history plus repetitive/defining habits which gave a sense of weight or solidity (or am I theorising?)

I had abandoned that question in favour of the one asking for inherent differences between tree, mug, person, etc. above. Thank you for making that clear.
As you suspect there is ‘theorising’. And small (discursive, narrow) mind is good at that. This process (theorising) isn’t useless, or ‘bad’, it simply needs to be seen for what it is: a theory, a concept, a view.

Now here is another little exercise:
- sit comfortably on a chair and close the eyes.
- observe, in direct experience, whatever impacts the sense of hearing.
1. Can these sensations be located?
2. Can a “self”, an “essence of Kamalavajri” be found in these sensations?

All the best
Dridhamati

[Kamalavajri]

Hi Kamalavajri,

Yes there is agreement

Thank you.
Now, staying with thoughts, and general activity of the mind. Observing this activity, general thoughts, more focused ideas, concepts, views, etc. no agency, or controller could be found. But:
can a “self”, an “essence of Kamalavajri” be found in all this activity?

Is there any difference between an agency/controller and a "self"/ essence of Kamalavajri? Thoughts seem to arise and pass without any of these. Waking this morning, a thought/intention was carried through and activated from yesterday. This indicates continuity; that the the thought (and memory!)were strong enough to have a consequence. Even then, this does not necessarily imply that a "self" is responsible for this continuity.

Yes there is agreement

Thank you.

No there is nothing inherently different

Thank you. That is also the experience here.

After my last post, I realised I had missed one of your questions:
Who or what wants to be different than a mug?
This came in response to seeing what is perceived of a mug and thinking that this applied to "me". I tried to sense what was giving a sense of "me". It seemed to be a history plus repetitive/defining habits which gave a sense of weight or solidity (or am I theorising?)

I had abandoned that question in favour of the one asking for inherent differences between tree, mug, person, etc. above. Thank you for making that clear.
As you suspect there is ‘theorising’. And small (discursive, narrow) mind is good at that. This process (theorising) isn’t useless, or ‘bad’, it simply needs to be seen for what it is: a theory, a concept, a view.

Now here is another little exercise:
- sit comfortably on a chair and close the eyes.
- observe, in direct experience, whatever impacts the sense of hearing.
1. Can these sensations be located?

Yes - either "out there" or "in here"

2. Can a “self”, an “essence of Kamalavajri” be found in these sensations?

No, they are just happening and being experienced.
Thank you, Dridhamati

All the best
Dridhamati

[dridhamati]

Hi Kamalavajri,

Is there any difference between an agency/controller and a "self"/ essence of Kamalavajri?

Good question. Some intimate or even claim there is, but let’s not go into this metaphysical sideline right now.

Thoughts seem to arise and pass without any of these.

Yes, that’s the experience here also. Thank you.

Waking this morning, a thought/intention was carried through and activated from yesterday. This indicates continuity; that the the thought (and memory!)were strong enough to have a consequence. Even then, this does not necessarily imply that a "self" is responsible for this continuity.

Just as an exercise in direct experience:
what in these sentences above is observation, and what is inferred?

1. Can these sensations be located?

Yes - either "out there" or "in here"

Can you please define "out there" and "in here"?

2. Can a “self”, an “essence of Kamalavajri” be found in these sensations?

No, they are just happening and being experienced.

That’s the experience here also. Thank you.

This is good work Kamalavajri. May I suggest you observe a bit more closely in direct experience. The investigation is moving into more subtle areas, that require more attention. Thank you.

All the best
Dridhamati

[Kamalavajri]

Hi Kamalavajri,

Is there any difference between an agency/controller and a "self"/ essence of Kamalavajri?

Good question. Some intimate or even claim there is, but let’s not go into this metaphysical sideline right now.

Thoughts seem to arise and pass without any of these.

Yes, that’s the experience here also. Thank you.

Waking this morning, a thought/intention was carried through and activated from yesterday. This indicates continuity; that the the thought (and memory!)were strong enough to have a consequence. Even then, this does not necessarily imply that a "self" is responsible for this continuity.

Just as an exercise in direct experience:
what in these sentences above is observation, and what is inferred?

Just the first bit was observation = waking and noticing a thought from the previous day and it being actioned. The rest is inference.

1. Can these sensations be located?

Yes - either "out there" or "in here"

Can you please define "out there" and "in here"?

"out there" was a dog barking outside the house. "In here" was digesting sounds in the body.

2. Can a “self”, an “essence of Kamalavajri” be found in these sensations?

No, they are just happening and being experienced.

That’s the experience here also. Thank you.

This is good work Kamalavajri. May I suggest you observe a bit more closely in direct experience. The investigation is moving into more subtle areas, that require more attention. Thank you.

Yes - will try to stay with direct experience and cultivate attention and receptivity. Looking forward to your next post. Kamalavajri

All the best
Dridhamati

[dridhamati]

Hi Kamalavajri,

Just the first bit was observation = waking and noticing a thought from the previous day and it being actioned. The rest is inference.

Thank you.
It is important for this process to remain clear about what is observed, and what is inferred, or created by mind: concepts, views, etc.

"out there" was a dog barking outside the house. "In here" was digesting sounds in the body.

Again, in these two sentences, what is observation and what is inference?
Direct experience is about the raw sensations that are perceived through the senses. Remember the exercise with the cup.
So where did "out there" come from? From the conceptualisation of a dog barking at a distance. Was the dog seen? How was it known it was barking? Sounds were heard that memory associated with barking. How is it known that the sound even originated from the dog? And so on.
In effect the statement “"out there" was a dog barking outside the house.” is a complete fabrication, a house of cards which collapsed under the slightest scrutiny.
It might be a useful fabrication in the context of the relative everyday world, but in the context of our investigation it illustrates how removed we can become from our experience.

So here is the question again:
Can you please define “out there” and “in here”?
Please report from direct experience.

All the best
Dridhamati

[Kamalavajri]

Hi Kamalavajri,

Just the first bit was observation = waking and noticing a thought from the previous day and it being actioned. The rest is inference.

Thank you.
It is important for this process to remain clear about what is observed, and what is inferred, or created by mind: concepts, views, etc.

"out there" was a dog barking outside the house. "In here" was digesting sounds in the body.

Again, in these two sentences, what is observation and what is inference?
Direct experience is about the raw sensations that are perceived through the senses. Remember the exercise with the cup.
So where did "out there" come from? From the conceptualisation of a dog barking at a distance. Was the dog seen? How was it known it was barking? Sounds were heard that memory associated with barking. How is it known that the sound even originated from the dog? And so on.
In effect the statement “"out there" was a dog barking outside the house.” is a complete fabrication, a house of cards which collapsed under the slightest scrutiny.
It might be a useful fabrication in the context of the relative everyday world, but in the context of our investigation it illustrates how removed we can become from our experience.

So here is the question again:
Can you please define “out there” and “in here”?
Please report from direct experience.

Oh dear! Yes! It was better on the train in the previous exercise.This exercise was repeated again a few times and the article on "Direct Experience" read.
First response was the sheer difficulty of translating/communicating the raw experience of sound. Here goes, with awareness of using concepts that don't capture the fullness of the sound experience.

There was humming, bumping clattering.
Another time there was a low kind of roaring, a high pitched whining. Very varied sounds going up and down in pitch. A rubbing friction kind of sound, creaking, gurgling, whooshing. Short sharp sounds, rhythm patterns. Some sounds seemed nearby, others further off. Some were loud, others soft. Sounds seemed to be happening pretty well non-stop.

"Out there" and "In here" don't seem to apply in direct experience. There is just sound happening all around and being experienced.

Am away now for a couple of days, seeing my Mum,but will try to post before I go. Then I am around for 3 continuous weeks. Thanks Dridhamati.

All the best
Dridhamati

[dridhamati]

Hi Kamalavajri,

"Out there" and "In here" don't seem to apply in direct experience. There is just sound happening all around and being experienced.

Thank you. Indeed that is the experience here too.

So now I am going to ask a few more pointed questions, to make sure we've left no stone unturned, so to speak.

Have you been able to find:
- a “self” that is the ‘experiencer’? Or,
- a “self” that is the doer, or can control what happens? Or,
- a “self” that ‘makes’ decisions? Or,
- a “self” who ‘does the thinking’?

Please report from direct experience.

Am away now for a couple of days, seeing my Mum,but will try to post before I go.

Wishing you both an enjoyable time.

All the best
Dridhamati

[Kamalavajri]

Hi Kamalavajri,

"Out there" and "In here" don't seem to apply in direct experience. There is just sound happening all around and being experienced.

Thank you. Indeed that is the experience here too.

So now I am going to ask a few more pointed questions, to make sure we've left no stone unturned, so to speak.

Have you been able to find:
- a “self” that is the ‘experiencer’? Or,
- a “self” that is the doer, or can control what happens? Or,
- a “self” that ‘makes’ decisions? Or,
- a “self” who ‘does the thinking’?

Please report from direct experience.

Am away now for a couple of days, seeing my Mum,but will try to post before I go.

Wishing you both an enjoyable time.

All the best
Dridhamati

Hello, Dridhamati. I have been pondering these questions over the weekend. I can't find a "self" in any of these in direct experience. There is an experience, which registers in the senses. Doing happens - a lot of doing - but there is no "I" that can control events - something tries to sometimes. Decisions are arrived at and change sometimes. Thinking happens; thoughts arise and go. There is a sense of awareness (sometimes!) of experience, of actions and their results, of thoughts.
Kamalavajri

[dridhamati]

Hi Kamalavajri,

I have been pondering these questions over the weekend. I can't find a "self" in any of these in direct experience. There is an experience, which registers in the senses. Doing happens - a lot of doing - but there is no "I" that can control events - something tries to sometimes. Decisions are arrived at and change sometimes. Thinking happens; thoughts arise and go. There is a sense of awareness (sometimes!) of experience, of actions and their results, of thoughts.

This is good work Kamalavajri, thank you.

Just to clarify:

...something tries to sometimes.

Could you please explain: what is this “something” that tries to control events, sometimes?

There is a sense of awareness (sometimes!) of experience, of actions and their results, of thoughts.

Could you please expand on this? What is this “sense of awareness”?

All the best
Dridhamati

[Kamalavajri]

Hi Kamalavajri,

I have been pondering these questions over the weekend. I can't find a "self" in any of these in direct experience. There is an experience, which registers in the senses. Doing happens - a lot of doing - but there is no "I" that can control events - something tries to sometimes. Decisions are arrived at and change sometimes. Thinking happens; thoughts arise and go. There is a sense of awareness (sometimes!) of experience, of actions and their results, of thoughts.

This is good work Kamalavajri, thank you.

Just to clarify:

...something tries to sometimes.

Could you please explain: what is this “something” that tries to control events, sometimes?

There is a sense of awareness (sometimes!) of experience, of actions and their results, of thoughts.

Could you please expand on this? What is this “sense of awareness”?

All the best
Dridhamati

What is this something that tries to control events? Like .... going somewhere - traffic jam - thoughts and feelings come in re being late. Is there another route? Is the outside lane moving faster? Wanting to take action to avoid being late. Is this not something trying to control events? Sometimes the evasive action works, sometimes all that results is states of anxiety. Am aware that only going somewhere and traffic jam are direct experience - the rest is thought led.

Sense of awareness - when not asleep or being absent minded, there is a being present while an experience is happening e.g. awareness of smell, awareness of cold.

[dridhamati]

Hi Kamalavajri,

What is this something that tries to control events? Like .... going somewhere - traffic jam - thoughts and feelings come in re being late. Is there another route? Is the outside lane moving faster? Wanting to take action to avoid being late. Is this not something trying to control events? Sometimes the evasive action works, sometimes all that results is states of anxiety. Am aware that only going somewhere and traffic jam are direct experience - the rest is thought led.

So:
- observable situation: traffic jam
- thoughts: being late, another route, outside lane moving faster, wanting to take action to avoid being late.
We’ve observed previously that thoughts can’t control anything.
Are thoughts capable of “trying” to control events?
Isn’t this giving thoughts an agency?
Can agency appear and disappear according to various situations?

Sense of awareness - when not asleep or being absent minded, there is a being present while an experience is happening e.g. awareness of smell, awareness of cold.

Thank you. I see what you mean now.

All the best
Dridhamati