Requesting a Guide

[Wreath]

Hello,

Here's a brief background on 'me':

I’ve searched, studied and practiced throughout the so-called spiritual world: meditation, martial arts, magick, psychedelics and “medicine ceremonies,” psychic training, hypnosis, tantra, bioenergetics….you all know the list, I’m sure.

I’ve had a fun and wacky time, and some mystical experiences of God-mind or whatever, and I’m glad for it all. But ultimately, I still feel like it’s sent me around in circles. At the end of the day, I’m still just me--or think that I am. To go beyond it feels like the final frontier at this point.

I’ve had brief experiences of no-self that have come unbidden. I’ll be looking at something and just have no idea what I’m looking at or who I am--not that those thoughts occur, there’s just nothing. Then fear creeps in, the fear that I’ll be lost forever, and my selfhood reasserts itself, and I’m right back in the coma.

I understand intellectually the truth of no-self. I’ve sandpapered my brain repeatedly with the writings of Jed mcKenna, UG Krishnamurti, and Bernadette Roberts. I’ve worked it all out and satisfied myself that there can’t be any separation between anything and anything else. I’ve glimpsed it. But on a day to day basis, I don’t feel it.

I’ve done my best to attack the delusions that keep me feeling like I'm real, and have had some major breakthroughs; but still, I suspect the most important ones are hiding in blind spots. I’m hoping that another person, a guide, could help me locate and illuminate those blind spots, since sometimes I feel at a loss as for what to go after at times. I’m hungry for it though, hungry for truth. I’m sick of dead ends, and I’m ready for the final thing.

Maybe here’s a place to start:

I’m having a lot of trouble with the idea that human connection is false, the idea that love is false, since love is the connection between a self and another self, both of which don’t really exist. I have good friends and family who care about me, but I don’t seem to be able to feel the connection to them anymore. I’ve also distanced myself from lovers recently because of this feeling of not connecting. The phrase that keeps coming to me these last months is that my heart is dying. This is really tough for me right now, and I think there may be a big key there for me in terms of taking the next step.

I could just really use an outside perspective on what the hell kind of sense to make about this very painful aspect of awakening. Part of me wants to hang on and go back and feel that connection again but I don’t know if that’s possible. It feels like the void is sucking me down and there’s nothing I can do.

Wow….even just writing that was clarifying as to my current big sticking point.

Anyways, if a guide is available to help challenge me and give me a push, I would greatly appreciate it.

[Vivien]

Hi Wreath,

My name is Vivien, wonderful to have you here. Thank you fro your introduction.
I am happy to assist in exploring 'no-self', though I can only point the way. You have to 'see' it for yourself. That is why we are described as guides, not teachers.

You and I will simply have a conversation, the aim of which will be for you to make the realisation that there is no 'self'. That will be our focus. I will tend to ask various questions and set you some exercises, but nobody will be judging you. You can't get this wrong.

But before we start, let’s get through the formalities first:
If you haven't already seen it, there is introductory info here, the disclaimer and a short video too.
http://www.liberationunleashed.com/

A few ground rules:
1. Post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. Answer only from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Longwinded
analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation.
Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and
essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
5. Understand that I will be guiding you, rather than teaching you, and the more you put into this process the more you will get out of it.

A few technical support:

- You can reply to this thread by pushing the purple-orange coloured button 'Post Reply" at the left bottom of this page.
- You can learn to use the quote function, instructions are located in the link below this line:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660
- Please click the 'subscribe topic' link at the very bottom of the page to ensure you get an email whenever a reply comes in.


If you are happy to agree to the above and have me your guide, we can start the process.

What are your expectations for seeing through the illusion of the self?
How will Life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?

Please answer these questions in great detail. No expectation is too small to ignore.

How can I call you?

Love, Vivien

[Wreath]

Hi Vivien,

Thanks so much for your quick reply, and for being available.

I've read through the site, watched the video, and read the disclaimer. It all looks good.

The ground rules look good too, and I agree to them all. Thanks for the technical tips, too.

You can call me Riley. I think the process will have more impact if I allow my "real" name to be at stake :)

In response to your questions:

What are your expectations for seeing through the illusion of the self?

This feels like a trick question ;) Or at least a tricky one. Because it seems like expectations only exist in the sphere of the illusion of self. Where else could they exist? They’re the projection of desires and identifications onto an imagined future. So whatever is beyond the illusion of self is truly unknown--outside the sphere of expectation.

That’s possibly what’s so scary about it to me right now, although maybe ‘scary’ isn’t the right word. It’s more of a sense of, “wait, this can’t be right, how could I exist without my goals and hopes and expectations?” Maybe I can’t. Maybe that’s what “I” is.

In that sense, my expectations are precious to me, in the sense that they promises all the good things that my identity hopes for. But they've also become a curse in the sense that I’ve begun to see through the illusion, to see that I’ll never get those things, since they’re unreal, and since there's no "I" to be in control of getting them or achieving them. They may still occur, but if they do, they'll just happen. So I’ve got the feeling is being stuck in this awful and basically absurd place where I’m devastated because I’m losing the hope of ever having something that never existed or could exist in the first place.

So it seems like the only way is to get out of the cycle completely, out of the sphere of expectation, out of the selfhood that used to be a comforting womb, and has become constricted and unbearable--pushing me out. I have no idea what’s on the other side, though.

So I have no expectations for seeing through the illusion of self, except maybe for the absence of the conflict that I just described. I don’t hope to gain anything, and I know there’s nothing to be gained. I just want to get rid of the illusion of self that has become a terrible burden.

How will Life change?

Life won’t change. I don’t think life could change. Life is whatever life is. Whether there’s illusion distorting my vision of it or not doesn’t make a difference as to the nature of life. But what I suppose will change is that distorting filter will be removed, and life will appear changed, since I will finally see it as it is, and not through the distorting lens of my own ego.

How will you change?

Similarly, I don’t expect to change. I, as a separate self, IS that distorting filter--so that “I” will cease to appear to exist. But the actual “I,” the sense of being, the “I Am,” will be, like life, the same as it has always been and always will be. In fact, it is identical with life, so in a sense, my answer to this question is just a rephrasing of my answer to the above question.

What will be different?

I don’t mean to just be repeating myself, but my answer is basically the same as the two above. Nothing will be different, except this delusion will be gone. I don’t know what that will look like or feel like, since it’s truly unknown--outside the sphere of expectation, as I mentioned. I’m not hoping for any good feelings, or anything in my life to improve. There’s just this thing in me--and the thing IS me--that at some point mutated into something painful that needs to be ejected. I can guess that the resulting difference will be a lightness and pleasant emptiness in the absence of that thing, but I just don’t know. In fact, I don’t care. I just want it out.

And yet, as I write this, I know that there’s nothing TO be gotten rid of, only an illusion to be seen through. I’m totally at a loss for how this can be. How can I be burdened by something that doesn’t exist? I don’t know. Maybe the perception of there being a burden is itself the problem. But still, the paradox remains: that perception, that distortion, still has the sense of being something that exists and has to be destroyed.

[Vivien]

Dear Riley,

Thank you for your honesty and the detailed list about the expectations.
This list is important, because every expectation is in a way of seeing what is here, right now. Every expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS. Expectations are about the future. But liberation cannot be found in the future.

I go through all the expectations one-by-one. While you read them, please pay attention to what arises in the body. Is there any resistance to any of it?

Because it seems like expectations only exist in the sphere of the illusion of self. Where else could they exist? They’re the projection of desires and identifications onto an imagined future. So whatever is beyond the illusion of self is truly unknown--outside the sphere of expectation.

Is this REALLY seen, or it is rather an intellectual understanding at this point?

It’s more of a sense of, “wait, this can’t be right, how could I exist without my goals and hopes and expectations?” Maybe I can’t. Maybe that’s what “I” is.

Good point :)

So I’ve got the feeling is being stuck in this awful and basically absurd place where I’m devastated because I’m losing the hope of ever having something that never existed or could exist in the first place.

It may SEEM that this is devastating, but actually, this is a good place to be. This can open up new possibilities, like investigating the ‘I’ itself.

So I have no expectations for seeing through the illusion of self, except maybe for the absence of the conflict that I just described. I don’t hope to gain anything, and I know there’s nothing to be gained. I just want to get rid of the illusion of self that has become a terrible burden.

Good. :)

Life won’t change. I don’t think life could change. Life is whatever life is. Whether there’s illusion distorting my vision of it or not doesn’t make a difference as to the nature of life. But what I suppose will change is that distorting filter will be removed, and life will appear changed, since I will finally see it as it is, and not through the distorting lens of my own ego.

Yes, life or outer circumstances won’t change with seeing no-self. Life is always is as it is. Only the perception changes. So everything will be the same, although everything might look different.

However, the filter is the result of X years of conditionings. At LU we only go so far as no self; but seeing that the self is just an illusion is just the first step, however the most important one. X years of conditioning won’t go away in an instance, but without a centre, a ‘me’, there is nothing they could attach to or stick to, so gradually they fall away. This falling can last until the end of the organism. So expecting that seeing through the illusion of the self is the end is quite unrealistic.

Self-referencing thoughts and stories (filters) still can arise as a content of thoughts. However, upon investigation (or sometimes without any investigation) it can be seen that they are only thoughts and nothing more, nothing ‘real’.

I, as a separate self, IS that distorting filter--so that “I” will cease to appear to exist.

It is quite unrealistic to expect that the ‘I’ would cease to be. Identification with the I-thought is the result of a lifelong conditioning. And it is also useful in our everyday life.

But the actual “I,” the sense of being, the “I Am,” will be, like life, the same as it has always been and always will be. In fact, it is identical with life, so in a sense,

Here is a hidden expectation or desire for identification. The belief that ‘I am a separate entity’ can be replaced (or rather layered over) with a new belief “I am life”.

What if there was no identification whatsoever?

I’m not hoping for any good feelings, or anything in my life to improve.

Good.

I can guess that the resulting difference will be a lightness and pleasant emptiness in the absence of that thing, but I just don’t know. In fact, I don’t care. I just want it out. And yet, as I write this, I know that there’s nothing TO be gotten rid of, only an illusion to be seen through.

Lightness or pleasant emptiness might or might not happen. But as you wrote, ‘you’ is not a thing that ‘you’ can get rid of. ‘You’ is just an illusion, a belief. This illusion might be seen through, but nothing will change, since the ‘I’ has never been there in the first place.

I’m totally at a loss for how this can be. How can I be burdened by something that doesn’t exist? I don’t know.

This is what we are going to work on.

What I propose to do is to set you some exercises, physical ones, in which I will ask you to describe the experience of the senses. We call this Direct Experience, or the Uninterpreted Moment. This refers to the data from the sensations themselves, before mind tries to make sense of it and begins to describe what is happening. Observing with the five senses — seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching/feeling. These exercises can help to see what is ‘real’ and what is not.

But before starting, please report what came up reading the comments about the expectations.
Was there any resistance to any of it?

Love, Vivien

[Wreath]

Thank you for the reply.

As far as resistance, yes there was some:

Is this REALLY seen, or it is rather an intellectual understanding at this point?

It is mostly an intellectual understanding at this point, yeah. Answering the question, I almost did it like math in my head. But there is a feeling there, too. Like there’s this cloud of all my feelings, good and bad, associated with the expectations, and then this other open space that’s unknown.

It may SEEM that this is devastating, but actually, this is a good place to be. This can open up new possibilities, like investigating the ‘I’ itself.

Interestingly, THIS brought up some resistance. Like, “No! It’s not a good place to be! How dare you take away my soft, fuzzy sorrow!” Like I had to defend the reality of my negative feelings. That was a surprise, and it made me reflect that the devastation I describe itself must belong to the illusion of self in the same way that the expectations do. Almost like a protective mechanism.

Looking back, I can see ho I've avoided this kind of inquiry because of that same feeling. I'd get as far as this, and then the sorrow and loss would rocket me back into attempts to cover it or avoid it, with sex, love, achievement, whatever. But it would always be there in the background, never resolved. I guess if I protect my sorrow, I'll never have to go past it.

Here is a hidden expectation or desire for identification. The belief that ‘I am a separate entity’ can be replaced (or rather layered over) with a new belief “I am life”.

What if there was no identification whatsoever?

This definitely hit me. So what is left when there isn't the illusion of “me?” That is, what is it that sees through the illusion of self? I'm trying to conceptualize it, and I can't, and I know that it's impossible and pointless to do so. This is a shock. What sees through the illusion of the self if not another layer of self?

It is quite unrealistic to expect that the ‘I’ would cease to be. Identification with the I-thought is the result of a lifelong conditioning. And it is also useful in our everyday life.

Part of me revolts against this. Like, hey, aren't we elite spiritual warriors trying to annihilate all traces of ego? A silly thought, I guess, but this seems too ordinary.

In fact, that same revolt against the ordinariness of the whole thing came up again:

What I propose to do is to set you some exercises, physical ones, in which I will ask you to describe the experience of the senses. We call this Direct Experience, or the Uninterpreted Moment. This refers to the data from the sensations themselves, before mind tries to make sense of it and begins to describe what is happening. Observing with the five senses — seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching/feeling. These exercises can help to see what is ‘real’ and what is not.

To be honest, this is what got the most resistance from me. I’m definitely up for the exercises, but my reaction was, “Oh man, that doesn’t sound very powerful, how is that going to help?” Which is probably a sign that’s exactly what I need to do. After all, I’m used to massive doses of psychedelics and intensive body practices and long phases of initiation and merit-based progress and such, and something that seems so….ordinary….made me revolt a little. Again, that was my initial reaction, and it’s very telling that into the ordinary is probably exactly where I need to go.

Thank you again,

R

[Vivien]

Dear Riley,

I appreciate your honesty.

Interestingly, THIS brought up some resistance. Like, “No! It’s not a good place to be! How dare you take away my soft, fuzzy sorrow!” Like I had to defend the reality of my negative feelings. That was a surprise, and it made me reflect that the devastation I describe itself must belong to the illusion of self in the same way that the expectations do. Almost like a protective mechanism.

Good observations.

Looking back, I can see ho I've avoided this kind of inquiry because of that same feeling. I'd get as far as this, and then the sorrow and loss would rocket me back into attempts to cover it or avoid it, with sex, love, achievement, whatever. But it would always be there in the background, never resolved. I guess if I protect my sorrow, I'll never have to go past it.

Behind almost all protective mechanism, there is fear. But fear is also just a protective mechanism, and it does its job well. It highlights that there is a story there about pain or negative consequences to this investigation.

What I’d like you to do is to investigate this protectiveness/fear. Examine it closely. Ask it as it were a some kind of entity:

What do you want to protect me from?
What is the ‘negative’ story, what would happen if the illusion of the self is seen through?

Observe what images and stories come up ‘justifying’ its right to be protective and fearful.

If you ignore the stories (thoughts) and mental images what is BEHIND the fear?

What sees through the illusion of the self if not another layer of self?

This is a very good question, and this one of the ‘things’ that we are going to work on it.

Like, hey, aren't we elite spiritual warriors trying to annihilate all traces of ego? A silly thought, I guess, but this seems too ordinary.

:) Oh, so there is a desire to be special? To have a better version of ‘me’?
And what if there is no ‘you’ that could be neither special nor ordinary?

Again, that was my initial reaction, and it’s very telling that into the ordinary is probably exactly where I need to go.

Very good observations :)

But before we ‘dig deeper’, please investigate the protective mechanism as I described above.

Love, Vivien

[Wreath]

Thanks a lot for the reply. Questioning that protective response turned out to be pretty fruitful.

Behind almost all protective mechanism, there is fear. But fear is also just a protective mechanism, and it does its job well. It highlights that there is a story there about pain or negative consequences to this investigation.

What I’d like you to do is to investigate this protectiveness/fear. Examine it closely. Ask it as it were a some kind of entity:

What do you want to protect me from?
What is the ‘negative’ story, what would happen if the illusion of the self is seen through?

Observe what images and stories come up ‘justifying’ its right to be protective and fearful.

If you ignore the stories (thoughts) and mental images what is BEHIND the fear?

Okay. This is a bit stream of consciousness, but this is what came up:

I ask it, what do you want to protect me from?

It says: "Being a sad lonely sack. Giving it all up and getting nothing in return. Throwing it all away for nothing. You’ll get to a place far away from what you know, and you'll regret it. You'll waste your life. You’ll realize you were wrong and they were all right: you should have just adapted to society, gotten married, had kids. Stayed with one of the women who loved you. Instead you went on this stupid spiritual quest, waded out way too far from shore, and all for nothing. You missed out. You’re gonna miss out. And no one’s gonna want to be around you."

I can hear the voices of family and lovers…."oh, you’re just being negative, you just don’t know how to love, love is the answer." But these are all people who wanted something from me, emotionally.

"You have to keep up with everyone. They’re getting ahead of you. Everyone’s getting it/got it figured out but you. You’re gonna get beat."

But behind the fear is just...nothing. There’s nothing there. It’s like there's a wall made of fear, and its reverse-magnetic force pushing me away. Behind it, though, is infinity. Infinite emptiness. No qualities. Just nothing.

It’s like the mechanism is protecting me from this infinite void. But they have to be false to do it. They have to act like it’s something else that’s the problem, like "wasting" my life. Because there’s nothing in the infinite that I actually need to be protected from. Its just total silence, total emptiness. It’s very alluring, especially compared to that fearful nonsense.

There’s no danger there, except to these voices, who would be silenced if I entered the void. It’s like the fear is the gatekeeper, but there’s no reason for it to be guarding the gate. It’s like the fear IS the self. The self IS its own fearful self-protection.

But the fear voices tell me that I just can’t handle being a human, that I’m a failure if I go into that void, that emptiness. It tells me I’ll always have an identity, that the infinite isn’t real and I’m just pretending because I can’t cope with life, and self IS real, and if I go into that void, I’ll still be bound by self, but I’ll have the worst kind of self: the worthless, bottom of the pile kind of self. The one who had everything and threw it away for no reason.

The voices say, “You'll never be able to love. No one will love you. You'll regret it and wish you were doing what everyone else is doing. No one will understand you. You won't be able to relate to anyone.”

It all seems to have to do with relationships. Like I'll be cursed to eternal loneliness, always longing. Having missed my chance.

But underneath the fear, I see it. The void. It's unmoved by these freak outs.

I know if I try to reason with these voices I'll just be stalled. There's no reasoning with them. They make no real sense. They're just pure emotional force, wearing the mask of people I've known or experiences I've had.

It feels like these voices and feeling of fear are freaking out so much because they know they're in danger. It used to be I didn't even suspect the existence of the infinite emptiness. There were layers and layers of fear totally obscuring it. But now they're down to a much thinner more transparent layer so they're fighting even harder. And the sorrow element is kind of stunning me and hypnotizing me. It paralyzed me with these thoughts of being such a failure. It's like it hypnotizes me and I stop the inquiry.

That seems like the difference on quality between the fear and the sorrow: fear repels, and sorrow paralyzes. But I do see how sorrow is then just a tactic of fear. It makes me hold still. It's like being stuck in a spider web.

This void. This emptiness. It feels like that's who I actually "am". It feels like that's the answer to the question "what sees through the illusion of self" awareness, consciousness itself, which is infinite emptiness.

And the voices of fear tell me I'm killing myself for no reason. That I'm giving away everything for nothing. Which I guess I am.

Like I'm giving up.

But again….the emptiness is infinitely indifferent to all of this. And at time it feels like there’s more presence of emptiness than presence of fear and despair. It goes back and forth.

That's a little bit of a rant, but that's what came up :)

Thanks again,
R

[Wreath]

Quick followup:

I experienced a residual effect of this exercise, and of conceptualizing fear as a reverse magnet pushing me away from the void.

I felt--on a distinct feeling level, not a thought level--that the only way through the fear is by relaxing into it rather than battling against it. Battling it seems to make the reverse magnet stronger, the emotional force of the fear stronger. But relaxing into it and accepting it softens the force, and I sort of sink into it, into the barrier. I've been fighting fear for a long time, even though I "know" better. This relaxing into it, sinking into it is a totally new sensation.

[Vivien]

Dear Riley,

Thank you for sharing. As you’ve already discovered for yourself, these are just stories, contents of thoughts that arise here and now, in this moment about a supposed ‘past’. They are nothing more than arising thoughts passing by, like clouds on the sky.

There’s no danger there, except to these voices, who would be silenced if I entered the void.

Are these so called ‘voices’ are really dangerous, or they just SEEM to be dangerous?

Dear Riley, there is no ‘you’ that could enter into the ‘void’, or into anything.

This void. This emptiness. It feels like that's who I actually "am". It feels like that's the answer to the question "what sees through the illusion of self" awareness, consciousness itself, which is infinite emptiness.

This is the same hidden ‘trap’ that I mention in my post, replying to the expectations about ‘life’.

There is no ‘actual’ ‘am’. There is no ‘you’ or ‘am’ in any shape or form. Null, zero. Not as an awareness, not as consciousness, not as infinite emptiness. These are just new ‘tricks’, trying to identify with something else. So the old belief in ‘me’ now can be replaced (or rather layered over) with a new one “I am consciousness”, “I am awareness”, “I am infinite emptiness”. Thus, the belief in ‘me’ is kept in place, it is intact. This is what we are going to work on.

And the voices of fear tell me I'm killing myself for no reason. That I'm giving away everything for nothing. Which I guess I am

‘You’ cannot be ‘killed’, because there has never been a ‘you’ in the first place. ‘You’ has always been just an illusion.

I felt--on a distinct feeling level, not a thought level--that the only way through the fear is by relaxing into it rather than battling against it. Battling it seems to make the reverse magnet stronger, the emotional force of the fear stronger. But relaxing into it and accepting it softens the force, and I sort of sink into it, into the barrier. I've been fighting fear for a long time, even though I "know" better.

Very good observations :)

Resistance just fortifies what is intended to be got rid of, because there is a fight against an illusion, a mirage in the desert. But with the fight the illusion or mirage BELIEVED to be ‘real’. So the fight or resistance itself ‘makes’ the illusion SEEM to be ‘real’, therefore the fight is justified. A vicious circle, for just one single reason: to keep the illusion of ‘me’, and not see it only as an illusion.

So, if you agree, let’s start the exercises.

The first thing to investigate is to find out what you currently believe yourself to be.
This should be kept very simple and should not be anything requiring in-depth analysis or thought.

The standard view of 'I', 'me' is that of a person - A body with a mind.
The standard view is that 'I' refers to this body that appears here in awareness. I am this body. Also 'I' have control over this body.
Since 'I' am this body, 'I' see, 'I' hear, 'I' feel etc - I perform all the senses.
This body was born - It will live a number of years - And then it (I) will die.

Feel free to reject what I have suggested if they don't match what you currently believe yourself to be.

Currently, would it be fair to say that you believe that currently you are a person sitting in a chair, looking at a computer screen and reading words off it right now?

What does the word 'I' point to?
What makes this body ‘yours’?
What makes this body ‘you’?

Love, Vivien

[Wreath]

Hi Viven,

I just got home and realized I wrote this reply earlier today and never pressed 'send!'

Anyway, here it is. More soon...


Thanks so much for the reply.

I'm definitely up for the exercise. But I have a pretty busy day today and I don't want to rush through my responses. So I'll dive into that tomorrow.

Also, I'm feeling pretty impacted by what you keep pointing out:

Dear Riley, there is no ‘you’ that could enter into the ‘void’, or into anything.

This is the same hidden ‘trap’ that I mention in my post, replying to the expectations about ‘life’.

There is no ‘actual’ ‘am’. There is no ‘you’ or ‘am’ in any shape or form. Null, zero. Not as an awareness, not as consciousness, not as infinite emptiness. These are just new ‘tricks’, trying to identify with something else. So the old belief in ‘me’ now can be replaced (or rather layered over) with a new one “I am consciousness”, “I am awareness”, “I am infinite emptiness”. Thus, the belief in ‘me’ is kept in place, it is intact. This is what we are going to work on.

Resistance just fortifies what is intended to be got rid of, because there is a fight against an illusion, a mirage in the desert. But with the fight the illusion or mirage BELIEVED to be ‘real’. So the fight or resistance itself ‘makes’ the illusion SEEM to be ‘real’, therefore the fight is justified. A vicious circle, for just one single reason: to keep the illusion of ‘me’, and not see it only as an illusion.

That last bit especially hits me really hard. This is a total shift in how I've been seeing the whole thing. I've been thinking about this as a struggle against something, which I have to win. But your image of fighting a mirage in the desert makes me see it clearly: It's the fight itself that keeps me feeling that the mirage is real!

Vicious cycle indeed. This is exactly the kind of blind spot I was hoping to have illuminated by getting some outside perspective, so thank you!

I'm going to let this sink in over the course of the day, and return tomorrow when I have more time to reply to your questions at the end of your post.

Thank you again!

[Vivien]

Dear Riley,

I've been thinking about this as a struggle against something, which I have to win.

The illusion of the self is in operation in these words too:
“Struggle against something” – meaning the illusion of the ‘me’ – “which I have to win”. This ‘I’ that wants to win is the same illusion that the fight is against. These are no two ‘things’: a (1) ‘me’ that is against the (2) illusion. The illusion is ‘in fight’ with itself.

But your image of fighting a mirage in the desert makes me see it clearly: It's the fight itself that keeps me feeling that the mirage is real!

There is no ‘you’ that could see the mirage. The ‘you’ that supposedly see or not see is the mirage itself.
There is no ‘you’ that could feel that the mirage is real or not. The ‘you’ that supposedly feel the mirage is the mirage itself.

This is exactly the kind of blind spot I was hoping to have illuminated by getting some outside perspective, so thank you!

You’re welcome :)

I'm going to let this sink in over the course of the day, and return tomorrow when I have more time to reply to your questions at the end of your post.

All right, take your time.

Love, Vivien

[Wreath]

Thanks a lot for the reply.

There is no ‘you’ that could see the mirage. The ‘you’ that supposedly see or not see is the mirage itself.
There is no ‘you’ that could feel that the mirage is real or not. The ‘you’ that supposedly feel the mirage is the mirage itself.

My initial response to this was some frustration. And then it clicked. There’s no mirage, no desert, no me either fighting the mirage or seeing through the mirage. There’s nothing.

This seems almost too simple, and there is a desire to grasp to something. But there’s nothing to grasp onto. And no one to grasp it. There’s nothing to be done.

So, if you agree, let’s start the exercises.

The first thing to investigate is to find out what you currently believe yourself to be.
This should be kept very simple and should not be anything requiring in-depth analysis or thought.

The standard view of 'I', 'me' is that of a person - A body with a mind.
The standard view is that 'I' refers to this body that appears here in awareness. I am this body. Also 'I' have control over this body.
Since 'I' am this body, 'I' see, 'I' hear, 'I' feel etc - I perform all the senses.
This body was born - It will live a number of years - And then it (I) will die.

Feel free to reject what I have suggested if they don't match what you currently believe yourself to be.

Currently, would it be fair to say that you believe that currently you are a person sitting in a chair, looking at a computer screen and reading words off it right now?

What does the word 'I' point to?
What makes this body ‘yours’?
What makes this body ‘you’?

Okay, before I answer the 3 specific questions, I will say that my notion of “I” doesn’t refer to this body. I’ve had plenty of experiences where I appear to be “me” without the body--in dream, psychedelic trance, various other altered states. So I came into this inquiry into selfhood already having revised my notion of self to be consciousness which contains my experience (including the body), rather than the body which contains consciousness.

But I’m seeing that’s not enough. That’s still a self. Anything that seems to be beholding or containing experience is still a self. And I don’t really know if that’s real.

As far as your questions, my answers ended up being pretty concise. Hopefully this will help make them easier to attack ;):

What does the word 'I' point to?

The word ‘I’ points to the consciousness which contains my experience, and that experience is a collection of thoughts, emotions, and sense impressions of various kinds.

What makes this body ‘yours’?

The only thing that makes this body ‘mine’ is that it frequently shows up in my experience. Not always, but it usually seems to be at the center of my consciousness’s experience.

What makes this body ‘you’?

Nothing makes this body ‘me.’ As I mentioned, I’ve had plenty of experiences of being conscious without the body being present, so I do not consider my body to be ‘me.’

These were good questions because I feel they show exactly where I'm stuck in all this.

Thanks!

[Vivien]

Dear Riley,

My initial response to this was some frustration. And then it clicked. There’s no mirage, no desert, no me either fighting the mirage or seeing through the mirage. There’s nothing.
This seems almost too simple, and there is a desire to grasp to something. But there’s nothing to grasp onto. And no one to grasp it. There’s nothing to be done.

Has this been CLEARLY seen, or is this rather an intellectual understanding now?
I just would like to know where you are at now.

So I came into this inquiry into selfhood already having revised my notion of self to be consciousness which contains my experience (including the body), rather than the body which contains consciousness.
But I’m seeing that’s not enough. That’s still a self. Anything that seems to be beholding or containing experience is still a self. And I don’t really know if that’s real.

Very good observations.

The word ‘I’ points to the consciousness which contains my experience, and that experience is a collection of thoughts, emotions, and sense impressions of various kinds.

How many ‘I’-s do you have?
(1) ‘I’ as ‘consciousness’
(2) the ‘thing’ (“me”) that owns experience

So the word ‘I’ points to consciousness or it points to the ‘thing’ (“my”) that has an experience?
Or there are many ‘you’-s?

Now we try to find the this ‘I’.
We are LOOKing for a real ‘I’. Real is something that can be found.

What I want you to do for our examination together, is to try to separate out thoughts from what is ‘real’.
But at first, as an example, let’s try to find Darth Vader from Star Wars.
We’re looking for a real Darth Vader that can be found.
In order to prove that it exists, we have to experience it directly by seeing, hearing, touching/feeling, smelling.

The image projected to the cinema screen is not it.
The poster on the wall about Darth Vader is not it.
The memory in ‘my head’ about Darth Vader is not a proof of its existence.
A thought suggesting that “he may be exist somewhere in the galaxy” is just an idea, but not a proof of it.
A lego figure of Darth Vader is not a real Darth Vader.
A life size wax figure exhibited in a museum is not it.
A twelve-year old boy dressed in a Darth Vader costume is not it.

Now, try to find the ‘I’. Look everywhere. Search every corner of the body, memories, feelings, thoughts, or any other places. Don’t leave any stones unturned.

Let's take 'seeing' as a very simple first example.

Right now, these words on the screen are being seen. Examine your experience right now.

Now, what can you find that is seeing them?
Can you locate, find, track-down etc the 'thing' that is seeing these words on the screen right now?
Tell me what you find, what comes up?

Love, Vivien

[Wreath]

Has this been CLEARLY seen, or is this rather an intellectual understanding now?
I just would like to know where you are at now.

I’m want to be very careful about not fooling myself here, but I do seem to see this pretty clearly. Since yesterday, something just seems...gone….and I’m not trying to figure out how to battle ego. There’s just kind of an absence, I don’t know. Hard to say how much is still just my mind playing tricks on me. But then immediately that sentence falls away from me….because who is there for it to play tricks on? Immediately after I wrote that sentence it just seemed absurd. So there seems to be at least the beginning of clear seeing.

How many ‘I’-s do you have?
(1) ‘I’ as ‘consciousness’
(2) the ‘thing’ (“me”) that owns experience

So the word ‘I’ points to consciousness or it points to the ‘thing’ (“my”) that has an experience?
Or there are many ‘you’-s?

At first, I didn't quite understand what you mean here, but then I saw it. I meant to say there is only one ‘I’--the consciousness, the perception itself. There isn’t anything to own the experience, except for thought.

But I’m going to jump to the exercise, because I think my answers to that will go more straight to the point.

Let's take 'seeing' as a very simple first example.

Right now, these words on the screen are being seen. Examine your experience right now.

Now, what can you find that is seeing them?
Can you locate, find, track-down etc the 'thing' that is seeing these words on the screen right now?
Tell me what you find, what comes up?

This actually hit me really weirdly. I look, and I don’t find an ‘I’ anywhere. There’s the computer, and all the other stuff on my desk, the wall, my hands...but that’s all I can find. Or I should say, that's all there is, since there's no I to even look for the I....

Usually I would say, “I am looking at the computer.” But when I ask, “what really is looking at the computer," there’s nothing there. It's like I try to look back into myself, but still, all I see is the computer. It’s this weird sensation like I don't have a head, and the computer is where my head should be. Usually I’d say, “I’m looking through my eyes, out of my head, at the computer.” But I see no head, no eyes, only the computer. So looking, all I can say is there is a computer. But there’s no one looking at it. That’s extremely bizarre. Wow. Really weird. There’s nothing looking at my computer. There’s only the computer. Very surreal. Very odd.

Riley

[Vivien]

Dear Riley,

Hard to say how much is still just my mind playing tricks on me. But then immediately that sentence falls away from me….because who is there for it to play tricks on? Immediately after I wrote that sentence it just seemed absurd. So there seems to be at least the beginning of clear seeing.

Good :)

I meant to say there is only one ‘I’--the consciousness, the perception itself.

This is the same trick for identification that I wrote you about before. I’ve copied my previous reply here. Read it carefully:

There is no ‘actual’ ‘am’. There is no ‘you’ or ‘am’ in any shape or form. Null, zero. Not as an awareness, not as consciousness, not as infinite emptiness. These are just new ‘tricks’, trying to identify with something else. So the old belief in ‘me’ now can be replaced (or rather layered over) with a new one “I am consciousness”, “I am awareness”, “I am infinite emptiness”. Thus, the belief in ‘me’ is kept in place, it is intact. This is what we are going to work on.

There’s the computer, and all the other stuff on my desk, the wall, my hands...but that’s all I can find. Or I should say, that's all there is, since there's no I to even look for the I....

Good LOOKing.

There’s nothing looking at my computer. There’s only the computer.

Thought is based in language and language can be very confusing as it presumes a subject and an object at all times.
So the language suggest that there is an ‘I’ (subject) that is doing (looking) the computer (object).

Put one of the hands onto the table.
Does the pure sensation suggest in any way that there is a hand or only thoughts and mental pictures suggest this?
Does the pure sensation suggest in any way that there is a table or only thoughts and mental pictures suggest this?
Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that anything being touched/felt (object) or there is only touching/feeling?

Same with hearing.
Does the hearing itself suggest in any way that a sound is heard, or there is only hearing?

But I see no head, no eyes, only the computer.

Let’s examine the body a bit more closely.

Here is an interesting exercise on the body.
With the eyes closed, sitting still, notice the other sensations: hearing, smelling, tasting, touching. With only the input from those four senses, and without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does it have a weight or a volume of the body?
Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Is there an inside or outside?
What is the body in the actual experience?

Love, Vivien