Want to put an end to wanting

[minddweller]

Hi LU,
I was guided outside of LU by a Triratna order member about a year ago. I'm convinced I've seen through the gross illusion of self and am keen to deal with desire and I'll-will as this form of 'selfing' is still very alive and kicking. Someone has also suggested I start guiding here, so this is something I'm open to explore.

As I've not done direct pointing on here I guess it would be good for all of us to ensure we are 'on the same page'.

So anyone free to guide?

Thanks,
Minddweller

[eyeman]

Hello Minddweller my name is Mike, wonderful to have you here and it would be a pleasure to guide you if needed or assist in moving you to the forums where you can continue with aftercare and further guiding or discussion. It may also be (as it is sometimes), that a little more clarity may be useful and in order for everyone who passes through this system to have a common level of insight, there will be a confirmation process at the end of our dialogue where other guides will be invited to pick up on anything missed. This of course is not compulsory as it's 'Minddweller's' knowing that's important here but useful in order to gain access to further investigation.

It is also important to know that this particular exploration will centre on 'no-separate-self' only. If this has been clearly seen, it may be that it's the further investigation that you are looking for. No problem there but it's helpful to just go through a bit of re-clarification before moving onto that.

Also coming from a Triratna background, there will hopefully be a common understanding of language and meaning.

A few ground rules -

1. Post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. Answer from personal experience only.
4. Read the disclaimer on the Liberation Unleashed main page - http://www.liberationunleashed.com/

Understand that I will be guiding you, rather than teaching you, and the more you put into this process the more you will get out of it.

If you are happy to agree to the above accept me as your guide, let me know and we can begin right away.

Perhaps you could say a little about how things are for Minddweller following the pointing you did last year, was there a clear insight moment? What's changed during the last year?

Mike :-)

[minddweller]

Perhaps you could say a little about how things are for Minddweller following the pointing you did last year, was there a clear insight moment? What's changed during the last year?

[minddweller]

Hi Mike,
Thanks for taking me on.
I'm trying to work out an easy way to quote with the app Tapatalk as I'm writing on an iPhone but can't work it out. I will write you asap to answer the questions.

[minddweller]

So there is no straightforward way to break up quotes, it seems I will have to do it manually.

Perhaps you could say a little about how things are for Minddweller following the pointing you did last year, was there a clear insight moment? What's changed during the last year?

There was a clear insight moment, a bit like everything that had been investigated coming together. It was during a short solitary following on from a few weeks of DP and I was sitting on the bed in the candlelit evening not doing anything particular. The simple thought "There is no Self in the body" was rapidly followed by "And there is definitively no Self in the mind" followed by relaxation and perceptual clarity. I then burst out laughing thinking "This is so ordinary, how could I possibly have missed this before! How foolish!"

The initial period following this period was a mix of joy and I remember feeling deeply disturbed by selfing as I had expected all that to drop away as it made no logical sense that these mental habits should keep going.

I've spent this last year looking into Buddhist approaches into meditation on emptiness. I've been revisiting texts on these topics that now suddenly make a lot of sense whereas in the past I've found them deeply mysterious. I've also enjoyed sharing notes with Triratna order members on a Facebook group discussing (post-)insight practice.

What's changed over the year is that I've come to get used to the mental habits of pushing and pulling that initially made no sense in the light of there being no one causing these but rather being dependently arising due to a lifetime of reinforcing the idea of self (a story that seems to fit experience). This clarity of seeing that there is no 'headquarters' in direct sensate experience has given me an inroad to the whole territory of insight practice.

[eyeman]

Hi Minddweller,

Thanks for expanding on the experience - it sounds very much like the experience of the last year for Mike too :-)

Quite happy to jump to a final list of questions in order to present those to fellow guides but will write a list of areas which would normally be covered during this dialogue and if there's any you feel you'd like to go over again - before this, please mention.

1) The 'self' as a controller making choices, controlling the body etc...

2) The 'self' as an experiencer, Minddweller having thoughts & feelings, seeing sight, hearing sound, etc...

3) The 'self' as a separate entity, distinct from the world.

4) The 'self' in terms of location: Here - There - Inside - Outside etc...

5) Thoughts arising vs Reality in DE.

If there's clarity on the above, then I'll add the final questions in the next post, if you'd like to re-run through any of the above, we can do that. You're welcome to comment on each/all or none of the above if it helps.

Thanks

Mike :-)

[minddweller]

I'll comment briefly on each and if needed we could go into them more thoroughly.

1) The 'self' as a controller making choices, controlling the body etc...

When looking into this I see actions taking place sometimes with thoughts saying something akin to 'I did that' but mostly actions just happen without commentary. In direct sensate experience (without paying any notice to the content of thoughts about experience) there is just sensations and thoughts arising in the moment without any self causing these.

2) The 'self' as an experiencer, Minddweller having thoughts & feelings, seeing sight, hearing sound, etc...

There is no observer having thoughts, feelings etc, just the experience arising. Or put another way, what is seen and the seeing of it is the same perception.

3) The 'self' as a separate entity, distinct from the world.

See above. No self standing outside the experience.

4) The 'self' in terms of location: Here - There - Inside - Outside etc...

Well there is no such thing as self to locate, as it's just an idea, one thought among others. I can't locate where thoughts arise. Awareness is not self as present with all experience, is experience, not a thing, as such has no location and all I can say about it is that it just seem to be yet another idea referring to the knowing aspect of perceptions.

5) Thoughts arising vs Reality in DE.

Not sure what you mean here. Thoughts don't know anything, they don't make choices etc, thoughts are like sounds, they arise and pass away. In direct experience unmediated by thinking there is just sensations arising 'aware of themselves' (hope that makes sense to you!)

[eyeman]

Hiya Minddweller,

You sound totally clear from what you've written above, thanks for that :-)

I'll present these final questions and request that guides take a look once you've responded. They may ask some further questions.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started the pointing dialogue you had, please report how things have been since then. (You did already gave a good response to this so please feel free to copy it in here).

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? HOw does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Look forward to passing your answers on to the guides for confirmation :-)

Mike.

[minddweller]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way shape or form? Was there ever?

No. Never was. Just habitually thought there was.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion consists of cascades of thoughts proliferating around a central thought (theme) of 'I' or 'me'. I guess it starts in early childhood via the acquisition of language and the unquestioned beliefs of parents. It's a bit like 'the emperors new clothes'. Once simply looking and actually being honest with what is seen it is obvious that the emperor has no clothes on, the self is nowhere to be found, apart from in fairytales. The effect of this self-view is to alienate us from life and experience which is whole through dividing experience into self/other. Story still arises (selfing) but when recognised as such there is a relaxing back into what is in direct experience.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started the pointing dialogue you had, please report how things have been since then. (You did already gave a good response to this so please feel free to copy it in here).

There was a clear insight moment, a bit like everything that had been investigated coming together. It was during a short solitary following on from a few weeks of DP and I was sitting on the bed in the candlelit evening not doing anything particular. The simple thought "There is no Self in the body" was rapidly followed by "And there is definitively no Self in the mind" followed by relaxation and perceptual clarity. I then burst out laughing thinking "This is so ordinary, how could I possibly have missed this before! How foolish!"

The initial period following this period was a mix of joy and I remember feeling deeply disturbed by selfing as I had expected all that to drop away as it made no logical sense that these mental habits should keep going.

I've spent this last year looking into Buddhist approaches into meditation on emptiness. I've been revisiting texts on these topics that now suddenly make a lot of sense whereas in the past I've found them deeply mysterious. I've also enjoyed sharing notes with Triratna order members on a Facebook group discussing (post-)insight practice.

What's changed over the year is that I've come to get used to the mental habits of pushing and pulling that initially made no sense in the light of there being no one causing these but rather being dependently arising due to a lifetime of reinforcing the idea of self (a story that seems to fit experience). This clarity of seeing that there is no 'headquarters' in direct sensate experience has given me an inroad to the whole territory of insight practice.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

See above. Just recognising that there was no entity that the thought of self was pointing to anywhere in experience. My two main sticking points during DP were that there ought to be someone causing (in control of) the actions and I also wrestled with the perception of 'inside' and 'outside' until I recognised it was thoughts 'locating' these sensations as boundaries that when looked at in direct experience I wasn't able to locate.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? HOw does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

No self causing actions (as self is just an idea that points to nothing in direct experience). Decisions are made but no decider can be found when looked for in direct experience. These things (choice, free will etc) are ideas and appear as thoughts saying 'I decided' etc but actions just arise with no control exercised from anyone. Like plants don't decide growing but do so in dependence on the right conditions coming together. Not sure if plants have thought processes though! Life flows on, life is king, to put it poetically. A good example is walking. Thoughts don't cause walking, no walker found anywhere, just walking, washing dishes, eating etc.

6) Anything to add?

Good exercise trying to explain how these things work!

[eyeman]

Thank you - I've shared this dialogue with fellow guides and just await for them to take a look and see if they have any further questions :-)

Mike

[eyeman]

Hiya,

The guides have been quick to confirm - please check your private messages for more details

Mike :-)