Looking for a guide

[Jack'n'theBox]

OK!

So has the penny dropped?

What does it feel like to see this?

[Ezra]

It feels like experiencing has shifted from 'portrait' to 'landscape'. Lots and lots of space. A lot of warm happy feelings, some tingling gentleness but a lot of space around the feelings. Still very ordinary with all that. Very very ordinary.

[Jack'n'theBox]

OK here are some summing up questions -- answer these from what you SEE not what you think and we'll see if anything else comes up we need to look at:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there
ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from
your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How
does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

[Ezra]

Ok. Will probably take me a few days to cover all of that. Be nice to go throughout it as slowly and depth fully as possible, if i can anyway. That ok?

[Jack'n'theBox]

Sure, just don't "think" about it!

[Ezra]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there
ever?

No, not at all. Never.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from
your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

Separate self is when experience is filtered through the medium of 'me': I feel, I taste, I see, I think etc. The feeling, tasting, seeing etc seems only to be able to be experienced with reference to the self. We place ourself at the centre of experiencing the experience. So, even if the sound is 'over there', it is 'over three' in relation to the self.
When it starts?
I'm guessing you're not interested in when the notion of self evolves in a lifetime, are you? (I'm assuming- from watching my kids- in toddlerhood).
Are you asking about what triggers 'selfing"? Well, in the past few days I'm noticing that any of the sensations or thoughts can trigger 'selfing'. Today,I remembered an incident, for example, when my 'self' felt diminished by someone. I was immediately right back into the story around this incident for a minute or two, actually until I noticed I was cursing like a sailor in my head. So, what happened was first of all I had the thought (the memory), secondly another thought swept in and told me how to feel about it on the basis of the story that has, in time, developed around it.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.

It feels free and full of possibility.
To tell the truth it's difficult to imagine there was any other way of 'seeing' things. Living feels lighter. I have been very soft the past couple of days but not at all high, very happy and well but not excited. Maybe because all is as ordinary as ever. There is great beauty in this broader lighter perspective but no magic.
Maybe there was a sort of 'tightness' in experiencing life through the self that is not there now.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

You asked me - 'Is seeing 'no self' something 'you' can do?
It hit a nerve. Then you directed me toward the Peaceful Possibilty video. That was it. It was reality being here right now and there being nothing to do. It unknotted me and got me out of the way!

Thanks J. I have two more questions to answer. I'll get back to them tomorrow.

[Jack'n'theBox]

OK great responses so far Carmel.

Can you just unpack this a bit more:

You say "Separate self is when experience is filtered through the medium of 'me': I feel, I taste, I see, I think etc. The feeling, tasting, seeing etc seems only to be able to be experienced with reference to the self. We place ourself at the centre of experiencing the experience. So, even if the sound is 'over there', it is 'over three' in relation to the self."

What is the "medium of 'me'" in direct experience?
This 'self' that is referenced, even though imagined, does it occupy an actual space? I mean is there ever a 'here' and 'there' in direct experience?
What is it that places ourself at the centre? Anything?

thanks!

J

[Ezra]

Can you just unpack this a bit more:

You say "Separate self is when experience is filtered through the medium of 'me': I feel, I taste, I see, I think etc. The feeling, tasting, seeing etc seems only to be able to be experienced with reference to the self. We place ourself at the centre of experiencing the experience. So, even if the sound is 'over there', it is 'over three' in relation to the self."

What is the "medium of 'me'" in direct experience?
This 'self' that is referenced, even though imagined, does it occupy an actual space? I mean is there ever a 'here' and 'there' in direct experience?
What is it that places ourself at the centre? Anything?

Sure,I'll do my very best to clarify.
There is no 'medium of me' in direct experience. I was trying to illustrate how when we operate through the illusion of self, experience is filtered through the notion of self; so, Carmel tastes/thinks/ sees etc. Is that clearer?

No, the self is an idea and does not occupy an actual space. And no 'over here' and 'over there' in direct experience. Reading back I can see the confusion but I was trying again to show how, with separate self, experience can be mediated through the self and is experienced only in relation to 'it'. (That doesn't sound much clearer!). A bird singing, for example, is not experienced simply as bird singing: it is a bird singing in my garden, behind me, at the back of my house.

'What is it that places ourself at the centre'?
Am I way of the mark here? Surely, the mind (thought) creates the illusion that we are at the centre of experience?

[Jack'n'theBox]

OK thanks for the clarification. How about the last two questions?

[Ezra]

I've just lost them!!!
Was sending them separately and lost the whole lot. OK. Will give it another lash.

[Ezra]

DO you what, brain has fried. I'm drawing a blank. YOu ok if I post in the morning?

[Jack'n'theBox]

Sure no hurry.

[Ezra]

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How
does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience

Decision
I think decision happens as a result of energy arising in response to a multitude of conditions. I haven't had much time exploring this yet but if I look closely I can see that decisions are not subject to thought. Here's an example: I have a habit of doing a vocal warm-up in the morning (for work) as I drive the kids to school. This morning I was thinking about this whole process and enjoying my open heart as I drove along. I remembered the warm-up and had a little think trying to decide what to do. I was able to watch a decision 'play itself out' with energy swinging one way and the other. Without a thought ordering me to I got down to the warm-up.

Intention
I'm guessing here based on what I'm experiencing so far: intentions are thoughts we hope to realize which may or may not come about depending on what conditions arise. An example- last night, I intended moving my daughter into the boys' room to see if she would have a better night's sleep. Her Dad ended up coming home late, he started playing with the kids so I couldn't get to run the plan by him and I started feeling too wrecked to put anything in place. Without me 'changing my mind' the intention didn't come off.

Free Will
This is the idea that we humans have the capacity to freely make our own choices? I think this probably isn't true. I can see that decisions come about as a result of energy moving one way or that other. Surely, there can be no free will in this scenario?

What makes things happen? How does it work?
Well, once again, it seems to be down to energy responding to a vast sandstorm of conditions.

What are you responsible for?
I'm not sure. Possibly very little. Possibly nothing at all. I'm very uncomfortable even postulating this but if there is no 'me' then surely I can bear no responsibility?

Choice
There are 'choosing' thoughts but the actual outcome is not as a result of thinking but rather again, the decision comes about by energy swinging one way or the other. I'm seeing this all the time with food - 'I should cook something healthy' or ' I'm tired, maybe I'll have a bowl of cereal'. Once again, I can see energy swinging one way and the other until a push of energy causes something to happen.

Anything to add?
Yes. Being completely honest there are a few fears. What if this dissipates once the dialogue ends?
And, in answering the questions above I feel I'm not as clear as I would like to be, particularly about decisions.
I still 'feel' absolutely clear about there being no-self and the feeling of lightness and openness is as much in evidence as ever.
Thanks J.

[Jack'n'theBox]

Hi Carmel some great answers here. Let’s just look at a few points:

You say “what if this dissipates after the dialogue ends”?

Are you identifying seeing there is no-self with abiding in a particular state? You know there’s no Santa right? Are you afraid that as Christmas approaches you may have got it wrong and you nervously start looking up in the sky for flying reindeer and put out milk and cookies just in case!?

“Self” is a mistaken concept – an incorrect paradigm – like a flat earth or the sun moving round the earth – seeing through it is not a “state” – it’s a new point of view.

Take this analogy – I can see a rainbow in the sky. But I don’t leap in the car and try to find the pot of gold at the rainbow’s end because I KNOW that the rainbow is just a trick of light. “Sense of self” is a bit like this. I KNOW there’s no self but sometimes an habitual trigger button gets hit and I start ‘selfing’ – that is acting in such a way that presumes there is such a thing, like if I take offense and get angry when someone says something rude to me – but it’s easy to see that response as an habitual pattern and that there is no real self that is angry – indeed there is no ‘anger’ – just a sensation with a thought story attached. So I don’t stay angry (contracted) for days – it just blows over. The ‘me’ at the centre of everything is seen as an incorrect paradigm so the anger has no place to stick.

“free will” is just another concept that is part of the “self” paradigm – it only makes sense in that paradigm. Take the self out of the equation and there is no need for “free” will – presumably to be “free” there needs to be some “thing” independent of conditions – can you find any such thing?

Have a look and see.

LIfe is so much bigger than the paradigm of the separate self can contain -- are you still holding onto control -- the idea that 'you' are somehow at the centre of everything? That things 'should' happen according to your 'will'? Have a look at this and see if you can let go of the IDEA of control. Remember you never did have control in the first place so it's not like you are losing something real.

[Ezra]

Hi J,

I didn't think I was identifying seeing 'no-self' with a permanent state. I've been looking at that and watched a very helpful Rupert Spira video called (I think) 'Awakening is not the same as bliss'.
I've been looking at 'control' . I don't see myself trying to hold onto 'control'.
I was a little confused by your last post. Was I unclear about 'free will'. Is that why you wanted me to look again?
Thanks.