Another guide please

[marka]

Sure, I'll respond tomorrow, once I've had a real good chance to really experience all this. I have been looking today at body but not ready to report yet. Thanks for the extra guidance.

[marka]

The point is that there's seeing, hearing, touch, taste, smell -- and thinking. Please try to notice how crucial thinking is to making sense of all of this, including whether or not we "have" bodies.

I don't get this!

I have been observing my body - I am doing it now - fingers touching keys (i only know they are keys because thought says that - although it's not something i think - i take it for granted) pressure on fingers as key pressed, sight on screen, reading words - so eyes scanning over symbols on screen ..... again, the fact i know they are words is taken for granted .....

and that is where I am struggling - so much seems to be taken for granted.

Yesterday I really paid attention whilst out walking and tried to ponder your questions:

Are you aware of the body as a object? Can you sense your body's outline?

I am aware of the body as an object but only when I really focus and only for that split second .... there seems so much ingrained about the body being 'mine' that it is taken for granted that it is.

I was aware of movement, of limbs moving, was it directed? I don't know. I was aware of slight breeze on the skin of my arms, temperature (and that was all it was, in that moment, 'something' detecting temperature. No me as such.)

But - I am struggling to break this up so easily - I don't get/notice so much how thinking makes sense of it all.

Body outline? No, not really! I had to really focus on parts of the body to get a general sense of body position, awareness of where it was, but not so much an outline.

Please describe what it is like to have a body as you do different tasks

Drinking tea - aware of the cup resting gently on my lip, a slight sucking of the liquid, the sound of that, the liquid in the mouth, hot and pushed to the sides of the mouth to start with, then swirling around the tongue, and swallowing - the liquid is pushed to the back of the mouth and the tongue helps to push it down the throat, causing the throat to contract.

and this bit again ..... 'try to notice how crucial thinking is to making sense of all of this'

no, I don't think I do notice that! It might be that thoughts are there, labelling it all and claiming ownership on it, but I do not get it! In the actual moment experience of the drinking tea I think I was more involved in the doing, did not notice thoughts accompanying it?

Finally, in direct experience, do you know you have a body?

Um, I'm not sure I understand what this is asking!? Take the tea drinking experience. I am aware of a mouth, lip, tongue, saliva, back of mouth, swallowing, throat .... is that evidence to know I have a body?

I am feeling frustrated with this phase. It's like I still believe there is a me (at least, this work on the body seems to be highlighting that), and the me is getting annoyed because it doesn't get it!

I will continue observing the body throughout my day. Oh, and that's another thing I've noticed - there seems to be a great difficulty focusing for prolonged periods of time on these body exercises. I can do it for moments, then mind distracts. I even keep forgetting the questions!

There is definitely frustration and sense of real resistance.

[Armstrong]

Please relax - there's no need to struggle.

Thanks very much for trying this!

For a lot of people, sensory clarity is the most difficult, and especially stuff related to the body.

You might say that we've evolved certain patterns of thought (assumptions) and feeling that ensure we survive. It takes effort to notice those assumptions and pay attention to what it is like to have a body.

and that is where I am struggling - so much seems to be taken for granted.

Right, the stuff is taken for granted. You assume you are typing on keys, and that that's what is producing the text your eyes see. Do you agree, there's nothing that you see, hear, taste, smell or touch that tells you that the fingers hitting the keys NECESSARILY produces the text on the screen? Indeed, you "know" that is the case, due to thinking - but the nature of this knowing isn't validated by anything you can see, hear, smell, taste or touch.

Do you see that "having a body" or "being a body" is likewise an assumption? You "know" you have a body - let's ignore the precise meaning of "have" for now. You can see/hear/taste/smell/touch the body. And you know it is your body (via one of these assumptions or thoughts) - but is there anything you can see/hear/taste/smell/touch that tells you that the body you sense is your body?

Furthermore, please do the following:

type out part of a message out to me. Please note that while doing the task, you'll be aware of touch via hands, fingers, butt, sound (the keys) and sight (the screen).

Then stand up and walk a few steps. Note that you'll feel touch on your feet & legs (if wearing pants) as you move, your visual field will flow and perhaps you'll hear your feet.

Alternate between the two activities - typing out the message and walking

And maybe in the middle scribble a note on a pad, or send a friend a text message - break up the activities.

Do you see how there is a continually shifting set of sensations? Depend on what is going on, you are aware of different things. Sometimes the hands. Sometimes the feet. Often the vision. Sometimes the sound.

A lot of people think they are a body, or that the have a body. They imagine the body is like a puppet.

The point here is for you to be clear about what it means to be embodied. Is it like having a puppet? Or is it something else?

[Armstrong]

This video might be interesting at this point: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtzPAQUVRtM

[marka]

Do you agree, there's nothing that you see, hear, taste, smell or touch that tells you that the fingers hitting the keys NECESSARILY produces the text on the screen?

Hmm. NO, I don't agree with this.
Sight.
That alone would tell me, even if I never new language, that each time i press this thing (that we call 'key'), something appears on the screen.

That is, given long enough, and noticing it often enough, I think I could work that out.

Do you see that "having a body" or "being a body" is likewise an assumption?

However, I do see this. It is assumed that there is a me in the body, directing it.

Furthermore, please do the following: ..... Alternate between the two activities - typing out the message and walking

well, I'm doing it. Can hear the keys, especially that long bar at the bottom, can feel the pads of my fingers and can note the marks coming across the screen.

and walking, feel pressure on feet, hear them, note some pressure on chest where top is caught, note hands adjusting this, pulling the cloth and notice the touch on skin.

and writing, now its all pressure on fingers, seeing the ink mark the page, oh, and pressure on heels - sitting on them, adjust legs and notice sensation in side, a folding, realise am leaning to one side, straighten up.

(and then of course, the typing again, the noise, the pressure, the visual field.)

pushing body up, pressure on hands, on palms, walking and noticing sensations ....

Do you see how there is a continually shifting set of sensations?

Yes, most definitely see this.

The point here is for you to be clear about what it means to be embodied. Is it like having a puppet? Or is it something else?

Hmm. Well, based on the exercise, it is like something else. It is a body doing things, experiencing things.
But, you know, its ssoooo difficult to separate this. There's been a glimmer, a glimpse of not being embodied.

[Armstrong]

Nice looking!

Let's try to clear up the key/screen thing:

Question:

Do you agree, there's nothing that you see, hear, taste, smell or touch that tells you that the fingers hitting the keys NECESSARILY produces the text on the screen?

Answer:

Hmm. NO, I don't agree with this.
Sight.
That alone would tell me, even if I never new language, that each time i press this thing (that we call 'key'), something appears on the screen.

That is, given long enough, and noticing it often enough, I think I could work that out.

This example is a bit difficult, but it recurs in real life. Let's explore this. Feel free to ask questions.

I agree with you that any normal person that did the experiment would conclude that the keys produce the words.

So say you do the typing experiment to see if hitting keys makes letter appears. Wouldn't the conclusion, "hitting keys produces letters", be a thought? That is, you'd hit the key and see something and then (hopefully) have a thought, "hey, hitting that key made it happen!" and it would feel correct.

Suppose you repeat the experiment and hit a key again. And then you think, "hitting a key made a letter appear again." And perhaps you have a memory of the first time - another thought - and perhaps the thought, "hitting a key makes a letter appear!"

The original question left out thinking. It read, "Do you agree, there's nothing that you see, hear, taste, smell or touch that tells you that the fingers hitting the keys NECESSARILY produces the text on the screen?" -- and that was to try to highlight the key role of thought in our beliefs. The point being, without thinking, you can't have the insight that hitting keys produces letters.

I agree that we can't do basic tasks or learn things about the world without using thinking to structure things - and that means that much of the time, we have to act as if our thoughts are true. But do you see that although we assume our thoughts are true, if we insist on confirmation via our non-thinking senses (sight, sound, ...) we can't prove things?

I'm asking you to be very meticulous about this stuff. You have to pay close attention to see how thought structures our life.

Imagine you see a car blocking your driveway. You get angry at the owner, because he shouldn't have blocked your driveway. You call the tow company to get that car towed. The towing company explains that it is your car, and you've forgotten that it yours (you have dementia and don't remember buying it), and to please move it out of the driveway so that you won't call back 10 minutes later after you forget this exchange and notice the car in your driveway again.

When you see the car in the driveway and think, "that's not my car!" what in sight says it is yours or isn't yours? A car just looks like a car, right? Isn't it just thinking that says it isn't yours? When the guys says it is your car, isn't it just thinking (as in "he said it isn't my car" or "it isn't my car") that says it is your car after all - not sight?

If you want, please do the following: go into your kitchen, find a white object and take it to the bathroom and rinse it off in your sink. While you do this, please try to notice what you think as you do the different steps.

To get that job done, don't you have to think at each step? Don't you have to act as if the thoughts about the next step are true? E.g. you see an object in the kitchen. You think, "it is white, grab it" - and you do it. Then you think, "OK, go to the bathroom," and you start off.

Question - about the body:

Do you see how there is a continually shifting set of sensations?

Answer:

Yes, most definitely see this.

From your description of the direct experience of doing those activities, I agree, you get it - there's a continual shifting set of sensations as you do different tasks. If I try to describe my experience of having a body, it reads like yours.

Let's explore the body further:

Are you always aware of the outline of your body?

If you sit and close your eyes and pay attention to your body sensations, and try to imagine the shape of your body, and then open your eyes and look at the outline of your body, does what you see conform to what you imagined your body to look like?

Thinking back - do you agree that being in a body and doing different activities isn't like controlling a puppet or an action figure (whatever that would be like)? Isn't it the case that you are aware of things differently depending on the activity - and that the experience shifts automatically?

Do you control how the experience shifts? That is, is there an "attention controller" that you are aware of that, depending on the task, decides and switches attention so that you become aware of things? Or does the experience just shift automatically?

Let's look at attention:

If you close your eyes and listen, does your mind move from sound to sound (eg honking horn, crowing bird)? Do you control where the attention goes, or dos it just flow from thing to thing on its own? Are you aware of anything in your mind that arranges to switch the attention?

[marka]

This:

Wouldn't the conclusion, "hitting keys produces letters", be a thought?

then this:

The point being, without thinking, you can't have the insight that hitting keys produces letters.

Yes to the first one. Thank you for breaking this down. I agree with the second one. It has certainly highlighted the key role of thought in our beliefs.

I'm asking you to be very meticulous about this stuff. You have to pay close attention to see how thought structures our life.

Yes. Understanding is occurring.

When the guys says it is your car, isn't it just thinking (as in "he said it isn't my car" or "it isn't my car") that says it is your car after all - not sight?

This was a lovely example, thanks, really helped - it is certainly thinking that structures the world, in line with beliefs.

Thinking back - do you agree that being in a body and doing different activities isn't like controlling a puppet or an action figure (whatever that would be like)?

Agree yes.

Isn't it the case that you are aware of things differently depending on the activity - and that the experience shifts automatically?

Yes. It is an automatic shift! Sometimes sight, sometimes hearing, sometimes sensation. But always an automatic shift, so, next bit:

Do you control how the experience shifts? ...... Or does the experience just shift automatically?

the experience just shifts automatically! There is a thought to try claim it as 'mine' (i.e. it happens because 'I'm' aware of focusing on different senses) but it is actually an automatic shift. I do not control this.

If you close your eyes and listen, does your mind move from sound to sound (eg honking horn, crowing bird)? Do you control where the attention goes, or dos it just flow from thing to thing on its own? Are you aware of anything in your mind that arranges to switch the attention?

It just flows from thing to thing on its own. Again, mind tries to claim ownership (by thinking about the filter of sound as the instruction) but it definitely flows on its own, there is nothing I am aware of in my mind that arranges this switch of attention.

Getting tired now. Thanks for all your help today and keeping the focus.

[Armstrong]

Thanks for doing it.

Let's continue.

Please do something like this and describe what the experience is like, paying particular attention to thinking: go into your kitchen, find a metal object and take it to the bathroom and rinse it off in your sink.

And let's do an exercise with the body.


With the eyes closed, sitting still, notice the other sensations: hearing, smelling, tasting, touching. With ONLY the input from those four senses, and WITHOUT relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does it have a weight or a volume?
Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?
In direct experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Is there an inside or outside?
What is the body in direct experience?

[marka]

paying particular attention to thinking: go into your kitchen, find a metal object and take it to the bathroom and rinse it off in your sink

thoughts: 'looking in pot, not that, there's a lot of plastic, that one, with the all metal handle', (as walking looking at object) 'its got 3 little bevels, it looks quite dirty, probably needs a wash'
then: 'hot or cold? cold, hot doesn't work too well here, that water is cold, washing, scrubbing, in that gap, right in those bits, it does need a wash, all those marks, its not clean, the water is cold, right in those sides, probably does need a proper wash with hot water, maybe later, dry it now? or just leave it? just leave it to dry itself.'

With the eyes closed, sitting still, notice the other sensations: hearing, smelling, tasting, touching. With ONLY the input from those four senses, and WITHOUT relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can't be known how tall, no.
Weight volume not known.
clothing - boundary hazy, not really discern it.
chair - pressure on my bottom, that's all.
shape/form - not one that can be known as such, in its entirety - just aware of parts, depending on where focus.
inside/outside - I can touch the outside but without thought I'm not sure I know there is an inside

[marka]

So I notice thought tends to offer an ongoing commentary and a judgement at times and some thought to the future (probably also to past but not in that example.)

With the other exercise, the focus is much more on the present moment, what is actually happening. No assumptions or inferences are made, just what is.

[Armstrong]

thoughts: 'looking in pot, not that, there's a lot of plastic, that one, with the all metal handle', (as walking looking at object) 'its got 3 little bevels, it looks quite dirty, probably needs a wash'...

So did you take something from your kitchen to your bathroom? The point of that exercise was to do something idiosyncratic. I would expect the thoughts would be different than just task-related. As in, "why am I carrying kitchen stuff to the bathroom?" or "this is disgusting."

As you wrote:

So I notice thought tends to offer an ongoing commentary and a judgement at times and some thought to the future (probably also to past but not in that example.)

Indeed. Can you please make up your own exercise and do it, and describe it, where your mind generates thoughts about an "I"? If you look back at your washing results, you'll see your thoughts didn't reference an "I" - they were just related to the objects you manipulated. If you pay attention, you ought to be able to notice; there are a lot of thoughts about "I" all day long. Here are some exercises that might make it easy:

1) Look at new cars/books/clothes and try to imagine replacing what you've got with new car/clothes/books. You ought to find yourself thinking of things like money, how you'll look to yourself or others, the benefits to you.

2) Try to plan a vacation or some trips for education or entertainment. Eg look for a yoga retreat that you'd like to attend.

The point is to get you to notice thoughts about an "I" so that we can see what the thoughts lead to (when they aren't seen as thoughts) and whether or not the "I" in the thoughts can be found. In the case of the yoga retreat, you might find yourself thinking, "I don't like that teacher" or "I don't like his teaching style".

On to the body.

Asked about the chair you've got:

chair - pressure on my bottom, that's all.

Indeed. Is there an inside/outside to that? If you don't think, but just feel the pressure, can you tell inside from outside?

You might try walking and noticing the pressure on your feet. Can you tell what is inside/outside without thought?

shape/form - not one that can be known as such, in its entirety - just aware of parts, depending on where focus.

Can you identify parts without thinking? I get your attention moves - but wherever it moves, do you ever feel something and sense inside/outside? Or do you just sense pressure? Go ahead and lie down on the floor for a few seconds and scan your body - have your attention move around - do you ever sense inside/outside? Or just pressure?

inside/outside - I can touch the outside but without thought I'm not sure I know there is an inside

Could you please repeat that experiment - tap something - and:

1) tell me more about the I that is touching.
2) how do you know what is outside.
3) what is inside? How do you know?

It may make it a lot easier if when you do the tapping or touching you are simultaneously looking for the "I" that is doing the tapping/touching.

Please remember, in this one, eyes are closed so you can focus on touching and thinking - and the point is to just see if there's inside/outside when using touch.

[Armstrong]

Quick thought on those previous exercises:

They might be a lot easier if you "shake things up" a bit.

Please do the following: pick up and move some objects around. As you do, try to pay close attention to the touch sensations.

Many of us, most of the time, don't pay that much attention to touch when our eyes are open. If you try to, you'll notice there's what you see and the feeling of touch. It can be a pleasant experience to pay more attention.

That may make it easier, when you close your eyes, to try to investigate this inside/outside stuff with touch.

Another thought: if you normally pick things up with your right hand, use your left. Or vice versa.

[marka]

Ok, I will be away for a while today, bit busy and have a class to take this evening, will try to write later.

I will happily do the exercises but have already noted that a lot of my thoughts reference an 'I' or 'me/mine'.

[marka]

Go ahead and lie down on the floor for a few seconds and scan your body - have your attention move around - do you ever sense inside/outside? Or just pressure?

definitely just pressure. To sense inside I have to start thinking about what might be there. I have assumed that the pressure means I sense outside but i guess that's not even strictly true - there must be some thought that tells me 'that is outside'.

[marka]

So did you take something from your kitchen to your bathroom?

Yes, but where I live is small, the bathroom is next to the kitchen - there wasn't too much time for thought! Plus, I didn't know what to think about (thought again) so ended up focusing on the object.

Can you please make up your own exercise and do it, and describe it, where your mind generates thoughts about an "I"? If you look back at your washing results, you'll see your thoughts didn't reference an "I"

There probably was an 'I' in those original thoughts. However, I've done it again:

'if I go on a yoga education I want to go for some time, like 2 or 3 months and really have some good work done. Where is the money coming from? I haven't got that sort of money. We don't even know how much it will cost yet! Let's go to Thailand, rent a home for about £100 month. I need flight money as well, that's 400 .... then i need to eat, but if i stay somewhere with a little kitchen I won't have to eat out all the time.
What time of year can I get away - what with the classes we've just started. Hmm, I could time it to work with the workshops I want to do and with some more of the yoga levels. Or I could go to that one about the spiritual heart?
.....

The point is to get you to notice thoughts about an "I" so that we can see what the thoughts lead to (when they aren't seen as thoughts) and whether or not the "I" in the thoughts can be found

When they aren't seen as thoughts they lead to an impression of an 'I' existing, directing things. So it furthers the idea that I exist, that there is an 'I'.

And no, on examination the 'I' cannot be found easily.

Can you identify parts without thinking?

No, it is just body.

Could you please repeat that experiment - tap something - and:

1) tell me more about the I that is touching.
2) how do you know what is outside.
3) what is inside? How do you know?

Touching my calf as I sit cross legged. Thinking about the inside/outside and the 'I' touching - there is a momentary flash, image, of what is inside that area. So thought thinks of what is inside - I don't sense it through direct experience.

The 'I' that is touching - actually this is just hands touching calf, or one piece of smooth skin touching one piece of smooth skin with some hair on it.

I don't know what is inside through touching alone. I only know through the input of thought (the visual image - blood vessels, bone, muscle, tissue).