Denis, please post here

[Denis]

OK, tried the "smell" experiment. I didn't use real odors, just imagined them. It seemed to trigger the real response, pleasant or repugnant. Unexpectedly, the pleasant ones seemed to come from above, the unpleasant from below. I would say they seemed to be going thru the body/mind, not happening "TO" them. I know you said not to think about it, but now that I am "thinking" about it, they must not have been happening TO it because they were purely imaginary, generated by the mind.

I would say they are just experience, no experiencer. However I am not totally sure that's what I felt when imagining them. I'll look some more today.

thanks, dennis

[Moonlight]

Instead of imagining, continue to look for an experiencer of real experiences. Anything and everything. Looking, reading, smelling, tasting. And emotions too. Can you find the person who is angry, or just sensations of anger arising? Does a self exist or not?

Imagining something is a thought in the head. And the contents of a thought are never the real thing, they're ABOUT something.

[Denis]

Hi Moonlight,

Just got home tonight. Coincidentally I had done some looking this morning. What I see is that there is both. Sometimes there is an experencer (which is the mind/body to me) and other times there is only the experienced. To summarize all the looking for 'self' and/or experience that I have done: it is all a matter of suggestion. Have not given up. Just skeptical.

thanks for persevering with me,
dennis

[Moonlight]

What I see is that there is both. Sometimes there is an experencer (which is the mind/body to me) and other times there is only the experienced.

Dennis, what are the experiences in which you find an experiencer? Could you mention some? And when you do find one, try to locate him/it, without the mind giving its suggestions.

Remember, when you do the exercises, you said you can't find a border, and when you listen to sounds, whether 'in' the supposed experiencer, or 'out' of it, they are both arising in the same awareness. What happens with other experiences? 'Where' are they happening?

Close your eyes and put your hand on the hard surface of the table/desk. Is the table touching sensation happening TO the hand/body (experiencer?), or is there an awareness of the hand/table contact sensation, also happening in the same awareness as the sounds arising (experience happening)?

LOOK, don't think.

[Denis]

You are so patient.

An example of an experience in which I find an experiencer is when I listened to sounds, I found the internal were arising in awareness the same as external but I know they cannot be sensed without a mind and body. Therefore the mind/body is the experiencer. Same applies to the sense of smell. I know I am 'thinking' but am not sure how to look for something without thinking about it?

The table experiment seems more external. Feeling the table is something my mind is aware of but not happening to it. It is aware of it at a distance. I see! The touch is just awareness. Not necessarily happening to me. What I feel is just an experience. I guess you are saying don't 'think' about it or I'll reason that it takes a mind/body to be aware of it and call that mind/body 'me'.

Seems like some progress tonight! Thanks, denis

[Moonlight]

I am sorry Dennis, for the delay. It was a very busy Sunday!

Yes! Experiences are experienced THROUGH the body/mind, but are not happening TO the body/mind. Therefore the body/mind is not a 'me'. There is NO me. None at all. Only life/consciousness/awareness/whatever. What you call it doesn't matter, as nothing can describe it. Everything arising in it, and as it, including the body/mind labeled Dennis. No separateness, only life happening.

But don't take anyone's word for it. Test it for yourself, with the exercises, regular experiences, everything.

Tell me what you find.

[Denis]

No problem for me waiting a day. I'll be here. Just appreciate your patience.

OK. Good word, "through." Not "to." I can see that, nothing lasts.

So if the experience is just going through the mind/body, it is just a vehicle to be aware of the events? The mind/body is just an experience as well?

Will work on the exercises. This mind is so analytical it as a problem just looking without the analysis.

I'll get back to you soon.

thanks a bunch, dennis

[Moonlight]

Dennis, sorry for the delays in posting from my side... I haven't been well, and even now am not feeling too good.

Could you write a little about what's happening, and what's being experienced now?

[Denis]

Oh no. Hope you are ok now. Don't worry about getting back to me everyday. I am in a rush to work now so will write more later. You get well.

Dennis

[Denis]

Right now. Putting stories and analyzing aside, thoughts are going through me. Sensations are just happening and going through me as long as I stay in the moment and observe. Not easy to sustain it. It's late so will look at this more tomorrow with a rested mind.

Hope you are better?

Dennis

[Moonlight]

Dennis. Due to my own stuff (family and other stuff) I am not able to continue writing. My apologies. I've asked my friends to continue with you. I hope you dont mind. The delays weren't fair on you. It was great working with you :) and I'll still be around later.

Much love to you!

[Chris]

Hi Dennis, I'm Chris. I'll be happy to continue with you in Moonlight's absence if you would like.

Have you had a chance to do some more looking since your last post? Please let me know what you've found.

[Denis]

Oh, I'll miss you Moonlight. Feel better soon. Don't worry about me. I see Chris is ready to help.

Chris, thanks for your help. I am glad you volunteered.

I have been looking. Not much change over the last week.

What I see is no 'me' except as a mind/body composite capable of cognizing experiences. I know; it sounds like bullshit and not a cheerful view. But it is truly what I see when I look in the moment for a 'self.'

I have had one day, since I began communicating with Moonlight, that I felt I had seen through the 'imaginary self' and became aware of the absurdity of the concept of being separate. It was a superb day and seemed like it would last. The next day I awoke to questioning it and it seemed to fade. The intellectual understanding is still present but I usually feel like a separate self.

What do you think? I appreciate your help.
denis

[Chris]

What I see is no 'me' except as a mind/body composite capable of cognizing experiences.

There is no you ('me'). No exceptions. There is a body and a brain. You are not the body. You are not the brain. They do not belong to a you. There is no owner of the body that "runs the show". Do you beat your heart? Do you digest your food? Do you walk? Do you think? Or, do these things happen without a you to initiate and direct them? Check in your own experience. Observe in your direct experience how these actions happen and let me know what you observe.

I felt I had seen through the 'imaginary self' and became aware of the absurdity of the concept of being separate.

Don't worry about separation ore oneness at this point. Just observe what I suggested above and let me know what you find.

[Chris]

Hello again, Dennis. One other quick note.

I know; it sounds like bullshit and not a cheerful view.

The above is a judgement about what is seen. It is irrelevant to this inquiry. We are not looking for an opinion about what is observed, please just report raw observations.

Chris :)