Open invitation - You then decide what to do

[Yari]

No need to be anxious and no need to succeed, we can just talk friendly and see if you're really that curious/willing to see this no-self/ego thing and then decide together what's best.

If you want, I'll help you see this the way it was pointed and showed to me...if not, at least we had a nice talk.

:-)

[Mark]

Hello,

I'm quite new here but very interested in engaging this process. Please let me know how to begin. Thank you in advance.

Mark

[Yari]

Hallo Mark and welcome!

So, what's your background and knowings about spirituality, enlightenment and this kind of stuff? Why you wanna engage in the process, what brought you here?

Nice meeting you, I'm Yari, and I'm claiming that "I" do not exist and You also do not. Its sort of a paradox, isnt it? :-)

Well, let's explore this together;
Quick presentation of what we will analize: Yari exists, and so does Mark. Our bodies and minds are there, just there is no one LIVING AS us. There is no central processor, no true "I" inside of us driving our actions, emotions, ideas.
That "identity" you think you are is not a real thing and its not -you-, its unsubstantial, its an illusion.

What do you think?

[Mark]

Hi Yari,

Thank you very much for the quick response.

I have been involved in "spirituality" for some years now; it's hard to tell precisely when the search started although I read a book on meditation about 17 years ago and that led me to buddhism and zen. Soon thereafter, I started sitting at a zen center and working with a zen teacher here in my home town. I continue to sit at the same zen center to this day although the "practice" has certainly changed and shifted over the years.

In the early years of zen practice, I spent a lot of time diligently labelling thoughts and residing in the physical experience of the body. In more recent years, I have been drawn to the teachings of non-dual traditions such as Cha'an, advaita, and have been very interested in the work of the many many nondual teachers out there today. I guess that's how I stumbled upon this place!

Anyway, that's a brief synopsis of my "spiritual" background. Please feel free to ask me any questions you might have.

I want to engage in this process because I'm interested in "checking" my understanding of things with someone else's. At least that seems to be a way of putting it. I notice the thought "I want to confirm that I have understanding of something." Which is fine. I do! I'm eager to investigate my nonexistence. Or perhaps that is not how you would put it.

Anyway, I notice in reading the free e-book by Ilona and Elena that, at times, while investigating the "I" or "Mark", I see nothing; that there is nothing and that nothing exists. There is just a stoppage of mind and there's nowhere to go.

I see that "I" and "Mark" are just thoughts. That this belief in a separate self which owns experience or has thoughts is just another thought. If I honestly look at this belief in the present moment, there is nothing there. Thought arises from nowhere and disappears to nowhere. It doesn't exist. I find that there is nothing to see or latch on to. It's just stuff happening.

OK, that's it for now. I'm not sure what else to say so I'll toss it back to you. Thanks again Yari for reaching out to me. I really do appreciate it.

[Yari]

Seems to me like you re already there;
is there an "I" or any sort of identification present in your experience?

When you saw there is nothing and its all just thoughts with no substance to it, what is then left to investigate more?

"I'm eager to investigate my nonexistence". Who is there investigating?
So the enquire is still going on maybe, but for what purpose if you see that "there is nothing to see or latch on to. It's just stuff happening." ?

[Mark]

Yari,

Sorry for the delay. I've been away from the computer.

The "I" appears as a thought like "I don't want to do that" or "I'm not happy." It is a thought. "I" see thought and therefore know that "I'm" not thought. When this is seen, then everything just appears as it is. No other identification and there is nothing to investigate. There's no need to go anywhere and there's noone to do anything.

For some reason, even though there's nothing to do when this is seen, looking or inquiring seems to be the thing to do. The habit of inquiring seems to continue. There's absolutely no purpose to inquiry when this is perfect just as it is. But attachment to the thought "I am insufficient" seems to create the need to look for something else. It doesn't make sense. But this isn't seen until it's seen.

None of this has ever happened, but I appreciate you taking your time to respond to my blathering. Much love,

Mark

[Yari]

Well, its ok if you have those thoughts; the "I" thought continues on its own, the illusion is not destroyed, just seen for what it is.

Every function of mind continues, such thoughts as "I am hungry", "I like spaghetti" keep arising, just you now see its Mind's thought and not yours, because you now know "you" are not the mind.

Even inquiring is just mind acivity, life goes on. Just you're now aware that the "I" refers to nothing (but itself), its usally just a pointer to mind/body.

"But attachment to the thought "I am insufficient" seems to create the need to look for something else. It doesn't make sense. But this isn't seen until it's seen."

First: WHO is insufficient?
Second: what are you looking for?

What are you perplexed and baffled about?

[Mark]

"First: WHO is insufficient? "

No one is insufficient. It's just the thought "I am insufficient" arising.

"Second: what are you looking for?"

Nothing. There is no "I" to look for anything.

"What are you perplexed and baffled about?[/quote]"

Nothing. I can see that there's no "I". There is no mind and nothing is in control. The fingers type and there's seeing letters appear on the computer screen. The thought arises from nothing "I'm enjoying talking with Yari." and then it disappears back to nothing. There is no one enjoying anything. There is just this moment. It's wonderful. Thank you.

[Yari]

Ok. Can you demostrate you see this with direct osbervation of reality?

Is it something you are experiencing directly or you just got the intellectual understading of it, that thought "I am insufficient"..where did it come from and what is it indicating?

[Mark]

The question whether or not I am simply expressing an intellectual understanding is what I'm wondering.

"Ok. Can you demostrate you see this with direct osbervation of reality? "

Let's see. When I look for an "I" in this moment, it cannot be found. The table is here, the walls are covered with pictures and papers, there are books on the shelf, breathing is happening, seeing, typing. No "I" is seen, heard, touched, smelled or tasted. No "I" can be found outside of the thought of "I". No "I" has ever existed in present moment reality. No "Mark" has ever appeared outside of thought. Thoughts like "I wonder if this is right." seem to arise in the present moment but as soon as they're seen they're gone as if they never existed. "I" look again for an "I" right here and right now, there is nothing, just breathing, typing, seeing, hearing the fan, feeling feet on the floor.

"Is it something you are experiencing directly or you just got the intellectual understading of it, that thought "I am insufficient"..where did it come from and what is it indicating?"

I don't know where the thought "I am insufficient" came from. It appears then disappears. It seems to have consistency and strength, but when I look at it, it's gone. The notions of consistency and strength are just more thoughts. It doesn't indicate anything real or substantial. It just points to another thought.

[Yari]

The question whether or not I am simply expressing an intellectual understanding is what I'm wondering.

Man, if you see it, you see it.
You can tell because it is not just the intellectual concepts bringing you to this understanding, you clearly see that the "I" is actually present but as a thought, even though it is not a real entity.

You can observe it directly and be sure of this. Let's do it.

Observe a voice in your head saying this is "me"; its your identity, its there as mind activity, its the mind talking to itself.

When you see it..its obvious, and i want you to be sure.

You say you cant find an "I" anywhere. Of course you cant, there is none, its mind activity and all thoughts disappear after a while back into nothing. We' re clear on this, right?
But what you must be aware of is the simple, incredibly simple fact that it is just a thought and nothing else.
That's what you have to look deply at and you must have no doubt. Now.

So have a look now and be sure. Check it one more time and be absolutely sure of what you see.
Right now, clear you doubts with a deep look in reality and direct observation of the FACTS.


What does the "I", the "me" in your head refers to? Do "you" exist? Or its all a collection of thoughts about another thought called "me" you pick up in your memory?

[Yari]

Who is it that is observing? Look at that

[Mark]

Yes. Sorry for messing around. The "I" is just a thought with no reality. It has as much reality as the tooth fairy. It continues to arise, describing a story, but the story refers to other thoughts. It does not refer to anything in this moment, in "real life".

Right now in this moment, there is the reality of this room and sound and movement. Thought arises but does not exist in any real way. The "I" arises and disappears.

The "I" thought can only ever refer to other thoughts. The "I" or "me" does not exist in reality. It is a self-referential thought pattern that has no actual existence.

"Who is it that is observing? Look at that"

There is noone/nothing observing. No separate entity. There is just observing happening. "I'll" continue looking at this. Thanks Yari.

[Yari]

I'll" continue looking at this.

What are you wasting your time for? Keeping looking how the "I" is not there? Of course there is none, and you know that. But is it true? is it absolutely true that it is only a thought?

Just look once and be sure.
If you see it you know because it is evident.
Did you look directly or you' re gazing around and following what your concepts are telling you about this stuff?

[Mark]

Done. There is noone observing. Everything is just happening. Observing happens. Walking, sitting, driving is happening. The I arises as a thought like "I'm driving" "I want to go there", and then it's gone. The I thought creates a story of ownership and control, but noone owns or controls anything. Looking at driving and turning the wheel, there is noone/no thing deciding to turn the wheel. Just turning the wheel. The thought arises "I turned the wheel" but it doesn't have anything to do with turning the wheel. OK.