Looking for a final push

[Sarah7]

Hi Daniel
Again some nice looking and noticing here.

Well it seems to be random whether the thought comes and is noticed as just a thought, or I get caught up in believing the thought. But even then, I don't know how 'I' can get caught up, since the 'I' is a thought itself, so the difference must be that when I don't notice the thought as just a thought, more thoughts come to verify the first thought, but when the thought is noticed, the verifying thoughts don't come. But again I'm confused, because why shouldn't the verifying thoughts still come, what's stopping them?

So it was noticed that verifying thoughts cease sometimes? And it is noticed that there is no ‘you’ controlling thought? And that there is no ‘you’ to notice whether a thought is noticed or it isn’t? Yes? So what would stop a verifying thought? Who or what is there to do that? Is there an expectation that all verifying or ‘me’ based thought ceases?

Thoughts appear and disappear but they don't literally come and go because there is nowhere for them to come from or go to. Thoughts are uncontrolled, any assumed control must be a thought itself. Thoughts can't think because thoughts are thinking itself.

'Must' be? Have you verified that? Have a good look.

Thoughts are real as part of experience. I know there are thoughts because I experience them. Ultimately, the contents of thought aren't real because they are just words and words aren't real. I don't think thought actually does things, the thought could come 'I'm going to walk to the shop', and then I walk to the shop, and it appears that the thought made me walk to the shop but I don't think that's true.

OK – so lets look at this. Pay attention to movement and doing through the day. If forgetting happens – no worries – just pick up where you left off. Find the doer or the controller of movement or doing. Pay attention to what thoughts say as doing happens – when do they come in? Before, after or during like the commentary? Does the thought prove that they control? Test this. Does doing just happen – even when ‘you’ are thinking about it? Like the driving. How much of your day is automatic pilot? If you there is an area where control is believed to be – please bring it here and we can look closer.

'You'/'I' is a thought, so without thought, 'I' isn't.

Is this seen?

I guess I only know this retrospectively. I could be daydreaming, and then all of a sudden realise I have been walking along daydreaming for five minutes, but I don't know how this is realised or what realised it, it seems to be just a spontaneous 'awakening'.

Is daydreaming not awake? Or is daydreaming part of what is and it is thought that wants something different e.g. an awakened state 24/7?

Yes I'll do this every chance I get, sometimes I close my eyes and look for 'me' and there is nothing there. Is this helpful, to look like that, or just when the thoughts come?

Anytime and as much as possible! Question and verify everything! What exactly do you know? I don’t know if you are a writer Daniel – and this suggestion is not something you ‘should’ do – but I found that writing helped me focus when looking, challenging and questioning.
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Raweir]

So it was noticed that verifying thoughts cease sometimes?

There is a difference between being locked into a vicious cycle of negative thoughts, and then just noticing a negative thought pass by. I notice a lot that after a negative thought is noticed then thoughts can come and say things like 'There is no me', ' Oh well, nothing matters' etc.

I actually find looking at present thoughts to be quite difficult, it feels like just a mess and that I can't understand any of them, most of the time I'm looking at memories of thoughts, which I know are thoughts themselves, but if you were to ask me to sit and watch my thoughts, I would find it very difficult.

And it is noticed that there is no ‘you’ controlling thought? And that there is no ‘you’ to notice whether a thought is noticed or it isn’t? Yes?

Well I can't find whatever it is to which the 'you' points, so yes. But it's very strange that some thoughts are noticed and some aren't, how can a thought be believed in, when there is no one to believe? Surely belief requires a subject, a believer. So it seems that thought is the believer and the belief. Thought poses as a believer to believe a thought.

So what would stop a verifying thought? Who or what is there to do that? Is there an expectation that all verifying or ‘me’ based thought ceases?

The expectation is that thoughts will no longer be limiting. 'I'm not good enough', 'No one will like me', thoughts like those may come, just like the thought 'I'm a lady' could come but they won't have the power to limit 'me', once it's seen clearly that the 'me' isn't there.

If you there is an area where control is believed to be – please bring it here and we can look closer.

To be honest I still feel in control and responsible for my behaviour, nothing has changed there really. But if you were to ask, 'could it be that there is no one in control?', then I would say yes, it could be, but that's not necessarily how I feel most of the time.

Is this seen?

Well I can't find what it is the word 'I' points to, whereas I can find what the word 'cup' points to.

I found that writing helped me focus when looking, challenging and questioning.

I have found just writing to you has exposed many beliefs I have, just because I'm seeing that sometimes what I'm writing doesn't match my experience.

xx

[Sarah7]

Hi Daniel

There is a difference between being locked into a vicious cycle of negative thoughts, and then just noticing a negative thought pass by. I notice a lot that after a negative thought is noticed then thoughts can come and say things like 'There is no me', ' Oh well, nothing matters' etc.

But you do see it! Try this – every time you notice – even if it is after the fact – smile! :)

I actually find looking at present thoughts to be quite difficult, it feels like just a mess and that I can't understand any of them, most of the time I'm looking at memories of thoughts, which I know are thoughts themselves, but if you were to ask me to sit and watch my thoughts, I would find it very difficult.

Can you see the thought stories laid on top of this? You are seeing – because you wrote this! Looking is simply taking notice of what is happening right now. That’s all. What sensations, what emotions and whether thinking is happening. Picture the sky and imagine the clouds floating across - try that with thoughts – remember you are looking from a distance, registering the thought has crossed but not the content and when you spot one – smile!

So it seems that thought is the believer and the belief. Thought poses as a believer to believe a thought.

WOW! Sit with this! See this.

The expectation is that thoughts will no longer be limiting. 'I'm not good enough', 'No one will like me', thoughts like those may come, just like the thought 'I'm a lady' could come but they won't have the power to limit 'me', once it's seen clearly that the 'me' isn't there.

Are thoughts not part of what is? Who or what do they affect? What is being limited? Can you find that limitation? If so where is it? Is it in thought only?
Without the thought 'I am limited' what is left?

To be honest I still feel in control and responsible for my behaviour, nothing has changed there really. But if you were to ask, 'could it be that there is no one in control?', then I would say yes, it could be, but that's not necessarily how I feel most of the time.

OK – lets look at this. Make yourself happy NOW. Don’t think about it, just do it. If you are in control of behavior then that should be easy! Can you do it?
Are you in control of what thoughts you have? If so then you must plan your thinking before you think?
Can you give me an example of behaviour that you control?

I have found just writing to you has exposed many beliefs I have, just because I'm seeing that sometimes what I'm writing doesn't match my experience.

Can you explain please? Is this another expectation?????
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Raweir]

Hello Sarah

Are thoughts not part of what is? Who or what do they affect? What is being limited? Can you find that limitation? If so where is it? Is it in thought only? Without the thought 'I am limited' what is left?

The limitation is actually thoughts and feelings, I'd say feelings mostly. I imagine/remember social scenarios in which I feel inferior and inhibited. Of course it wouldn't matter if there wasn't some feeling/thought that said 'I shouldn't be like this', 'I should be outgoing', there is some expectation, without which there wouldn't be a problem.

Without the thought 'I am limited' there would be a feeling of inferiority/inhibition, which I would say is the limitation, so the thought doesn't actually limit, thought on its own is powerless, unless thought causes feelings but then it's still the feelings anyway.

I would say I am being limited but we both know where that leads.

OK – lets look at this. Make yourself happy NOW. Don’t think about it, just do it. If you are in control of behavior then that should be easy! Can you do it?

If only.

Are you in control of what thoughts you have? If so then you must plan your thinking before you think?
Can you give me an example of behaviour that you control?

A simple behaviour: raising my hand

Complex behaviour: decisions; deciding what to say, deciding where to go, what to do

Simple behaviours I can kind of see there is no one doing them, but I want to be careful that it's not a belief, I still feel as though I can choose whether or not to do it or do it on demand etc.

Complex behaviours I guess are just more tricky to look at because there is more to them, they're kind of like loads of simple behaviours combined.

Can you explain please? Is this another expectation?????

No I just meant that this writing has helped me to see beliefs that I have.

xx

[Sarah7]

Hi Daniel

The limitation is actually thoughts and feelings, I'd say feelings mostly. I imagine/remember social scenarios in which I feel inferior and inhibited. Of course it wouldn't matter if there wasn't some feeling/thought that said 'I shouldn't be like this', 'I should be outgoing', there is some expectation, without which there wouldn't be a problem. Without the thought 'I am limited' there would be a feeling of inferiority/inhibition, which I would say is the limitation, so the thought doesn't actually limit, thought on its own is powerless, unless thought causes feelings but then it's still the feelings anyway.

Lets look at bit more closely at this feeling/sensation of limitation/inferiority/inhibition. Can you tell me where it is felt in/on the body? Is the sensation constant or does it fluctuate? What exactly makes that sensation or feeling limiting? Is it thoughts? Can a sensation or feeling actually ‘be’ limiting? How? How long has this feeling been labelled ‘limited’? Has it just happened, does it have a history this sensation (apart from what thought gives it). If thought says its unpleasant is it really? Go to the sensations and check under the label and story. Is unpleasantness added by thought? If you don’t think about it, do you know that this sensation is something labelled or called limiting? Is there any inherent limitation in the sensation itself? Go to the sensation located at the sole of your foot – would you call that limiting sensation? Or is it just a tingling vibration? Now compare these 2 sensations. Can you see how the thoughts get mixed up with the sensation? Is there an ‘I cant’ in there – that’s a thought. Is there an ‘I don’t want’ in there – that’s a thought. Go past the thought to the body sensation. Can you detect interpretation of the sensation? Thoughts again. Can you see the labels thought is trying to add - like – ‘this is limiting’, ‘this is unpleasant’? Do these thoughts actually belong to the sensation? Without these thoughts would you know these feelings/sensations were limiting?

A simple behaviour: raising my hand

Have you ever noticed sometimes that you arrive at a destination and don't really recall actually making the journey? It was as if the body was just doing its thing, driving just happened. It was as if the body was just doing its thing, driving just happened. It is only afterwards that the mind grabs hold of the experience and states 'I was driving the car' or, if questioned whilst driving (a present continuous activity), it would say 'I am driving the car'.
Whether your mind is totally concentrating on each gear shift that 'I' make, each look in the rear view mirror that 'I' makes, each twist of the steering wheel . . . or the entire journey is done automatically, the same result is achieved. Similarly when doing household tasks. Whether mind is involved or not, the task still gets accomplished.
So as you go through your day how much is auto pilot? Check and see if you can find a self moving the body around. Walking, eating, typing, dressing yourself, etc. Is there a WHO living your life? Or are there just thoughts about everything, including a self, seeming to live your life? Just look at the evidence. In your daily life, in all your actions, keep returning to this focus on the thoughts as you move around. Keep checking if there is something real, besides a thought that owns and directs the body.

Complex behaviour: decisions; deciding what to say, deciding where to go, what to do

Do ‘you’ decide to have a drink or does that decision just ‘pop’ into your head. Where does that thought come from? Is there a sensation that you interpret as ‘I need a drink’? Watch closely as decisions happen - what is noticed?

Simple behaviours I can kind of see there is no one doing them, but I want to be careful that it's not a belief, I still feel as though I can choose whether or not to do it or do it on demand etc.

Quite right! Verify everything!
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Raweir]

Lets look at bit more closely at this feeling/sensation of limitation/inferiority/inhibition. Can you tell me where it is felt in/on the body?

It feels like there is a lot of energy in my head, maybe it is just an overload of thoughts after all.

Is the sensation constant or does it fluctuate?

It seems to grow to a terminal intensity.

What exactly makes that sensation or feeling limiting? Is it thoughts?

I wouldn't say the sensation or feeling is limiting, rather, limitation is the feeling. It's hard to describe the mechanism from memory but there are thoughts saying 'Quick, say something otherwise they'll notice you're being quiet', 'It's too late now, they already know you're quiet', things like that.

Can a sensation or feeling actually ‘be’ limiting? How?

I don't know how the body-mind mechanism (I've heard it called) works. I don't know if thoughts and feelings can affect the movements of the body, such as the thought 'I'm quiet' actually stopping the body from talking.

How long has this feeling been labelled ‘limited’? Has it just happened, does it have a history this sensation (apart from what thought gives it).

It doesn't have a history apart from thought, when it comes up thought labels it and thoughts arise about similar feelings in the past (memories).

If thought says its unpleasant is it really? Go to the sensations and check under the label and story. Is unpleasantness added by thought?

No, the sensation isn't a problem at all, thought adds this, and an expectation that I shouldn't be limited and that I will be judged by others for it

If you don’t think about it, do you know that this sensation is something labelled or called limiting? Is there any inherent limitation in the sensation itself? Go to the sensation located at the sole of your foot – would you call that limiting sensation? Or is it just a tingling vibration? Now compare these 2 sensations. Can you see how the thoughts get mixed up with the sensation? Is there an ‘I cant’ in there – that’s a thought. Is there an ‘I don’t want’ in there – that’s a thought. Go past the thought to the body sensation. Can you detect interpretation of the sensation? Thoughts again. Can you see the labels thought is trying to add - like – ‘this is limiting’, ‘this is unpleasant’? Do these thoughts actually belong to the sensation? Without these thoughts would you know these feelings/sensations were limiting?

I wouldn't know the label without thought.

I think I've been wrong saying that there is a feeling at all, I now think it's all thought, the limitation isn't a feeling. 'Limitation' is what I'm calling the group of thoughts that come in those social situations, and they totally take over. If there were no thoughts, I would act without limit/expectation/judgement/fear etc. But how can thoughts change the way the body acts? How can they have such power?

Have you ever noticed sometimes that you arrive at a destination and don't really recall actually making the journey? It was as if the body was just doing its thing, driving just happened. It was as if the body was just doing its thing, driving just happened. It is only afterwards that the mind grabs hold of the experience and states 'I was driving the car' or, if questioned whilst driving (a present continuous activity), it would say 'I am driving the car'.
Whether your mind is totally concentrating on each gear shift that 'I' make, each look in the rear view mirror that 'I' makes, each twist of the steering wheel . . . or the entire journey is done automatically, the same result is achieved. Similarly when doing household tasks. Whether mind is involved or not, the task still gets accomplished.
So as you go through your day how much is auto pilot? Check and see if you can find a self moving the body around. Walking, eating, typing, dressing yourself, etc. Is there a WHO living your life? Or are there just thoughts about everything, including a self, seeming to live your life? Just look at the evidence. In your daily life, in all your actions, keep returning to this focus on the thoughts as you move around. Keep checking if there is something real, besides a thought that owns and directs the body.

I try to notice activities as much as I can, I feel like it's easy to see in these types of activities though; washing up, making a tea, playing piano, driving, walking, cycling. But when 'I' is being challenged, it seems more difficult, probably because there are more thoughts. What is it that gets pulled in by thoughts? Is it just that attention is on thoughts rather than on reality?

Do ‘you’ decide to have a drink or does that decision just ‘pop’ into your head. Where does that thought come from? Is there a sensation that you interpret as ‘I need a drink’? Watch closely as decisions happen - what is noticed?

Yeah I suppose all decisions start with a thought which isn't chosen.

xx

[Sarah7]

Hi Daniel

I think I've been wrong saying that there is a feeling at all, I now think it's all thought, the limitation isn't a feeling. 'Limitation' is what I'm calling the group of thoughts that come in those social situations, and they totally take over. If there were no thoughts, I would act without limit/expectation/judgement/fear etc.

First make sure – check next time a strong feeling comes up that the sensation just is and thoughts add story. Wont matter what the sensation is or feeling for that matter – look at the relationship between sensation and thought. OR emotion and thought. Just notice.

But how can thoughts change the way the body acts? How can they have such power?

Then look at the power of thought. Test this. Notice where thought appears to have power and see if you can actually look at the time to see what it refers too. You may not catch it straight away. Forgetting may happen. No worries. Just keep looking. OK!

I try to notice activities as much as I can, I feel like it's easy to see in these types of activities though; washing up, making a tea, playing piano, driving, walking, cycling. But when 'I' is being challenged, it seems more difficult, probably because there are more thoughts. What is it that gets pulled in by thoughts? Is it just that attention is on thoughts rather than on reality?

How are thoughts not reality? They ARE what is happening at that moment? Yes? So see if you can notice that exact point where they ‘appear’ to be pulled in. Just like looking when washing up! You ask ‘what gets pulled in’. Look – do you see?

Yeah I suppose all decisions start with a thought which isn't chosen.

No suppose - test this with another example!
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Raweir]

How are thoughts not reality? They ARE what is happening at that moment? Yes? So see if you can notice that exact point where they ‘appear’ to be pulled in. Just like looking when washing up! You ask ‘what gets pulled in’. Look – do you see?

It's just that attention is focused on the thoughts.

xx

[Sarah7]

And is there any controlling attention?
S xx

[Raweir]

No it just focuses on the thoughts. Then when it stops focusing on the thoughts, a thought comes and says 'Wow I was sucked into the thoughts just then'

xx

[Sarah7]

Hi Daniel - Ill post again when you have had time to look at the other stuff from thepost before. OK!
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Sarah7]

Hi Daniel - We are having some DIY done in our computer room - so I might vanish! Im hoping not! I should be back Sunday evening hopefully - Ill keep you posted if we are not back up and running. Sorry for the inconvenience and interruption.
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Raweir]

Ok, no problem. I'll continue just looking at what we've talked about already.

xx

[Sarah7]

Hi Daniel
Anything noticed?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Raweir]

Hello, hope the DIY went well.

Something I realised last night was that the 'body-mind' is self-contained and I really don't know how to express what I felt but it was like I realised that the body and the thoughts are all there is to it and there is nothing else added on from outside (like a controller).

Also, the day before, I noticed a thought and I could see that the thought had its own personality in a way, like the way it said the words, and I realised that's the same personality I take as 'mine', then I thought that maybe the personality is defined by thoughts.

Other than that I'm kind of demotivated with the whole thing because I feel like nothing will change after I see it and the same problems will remain and there is some fear of the future. Also the last few days I kept thinking 'All will be taken care of' and things like that and it annoyed me because I can see it's just a spiritual cliche that the mind has taken on to comfort itself.

xx