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[pozablo]

Excellent Elene!
The way you actually do the exercises, and report what you find, is a pleasure to work with.
Nice discovery that when attention is focussed on emotion as something that is just happening, rather than something that must be controlled in some way, the emotion runs it’s course. You will find that some emotions run their course more quickly than others, and that has to be ok also.

No doer, no thinker. For some people this is a bit frightening at first---what is it like for you?

Let’s look at this feeling of “me”. Find that feeling - the familiar feeling of being, aliveness. Let that feeling just be for a bit.
Where is the feeling? On the left side of your head behind the eyes, on the very top of your head? Where?
What is the feeling made up of? Please describe in words, the best you can, what it feels like.
Does it change or is it constant?
Does it come into being or is it always there?

Now notice the labelling process.
Is there a difference between the pure feeling itself, and the label “I/me” attached to it?

Note: even after realising no-self, the 'sense of self', as well as most of the habitual thoughts, feelings and behaviours built up under the illusion of self, will continue to arise from time to time, at least in the short term (not surprisingly - these are lifetime habits). Sometimes this is called 'selfing' ... so 'selfing' carries on for a while, even though it is known that there is no truly existing self at the core of it all.

Cheers,
Pablo

[pozablo]

I forgot to say, keep watching thoughts, emotions, bodily actions, “decisions”, everything. How they happen. How they change. How something else happens. Impermanence.

[Elene]

Dear Pablo,

Thank you for kind words, it motivates, appreciate it a lot.

No doer, no thinker. For some people this is a bit frightening at first---what is it like for you?

It’s not frightening, more, it feels like relief, as like you put down heavy backpack after caring it for a long time.

Let’s look at this feeling of “me”. Find that feeling - the familiar feeling of being, aliveness. Let that feeling just be for a bit.
Where is the feeling? On the left side of your head behind the eyes, on the very top of your head? Where?
What is the feeling made up of? Please describe in words, the best you can, what it feels like.
Does it change or is it constant?
Does it come into being or is it always there?

First time when I discovered this feeling years ago was when I was just remembering “myself” in different age to find how much I changed (sounds stupid :D). So I found that in all age, starting from 3 years, in school, during studentship, during career there was something nonchanging under all the noise around. Something genuine, not related with knowledge or skills or experience.

So this feeling of “me”, that I am, feels like something that lies under the life noise. It could be found only in silence.

It cannot be described by words, it specific features, just some kind of existence, aliveness.

It is not localized. More, when I am in silence watching the thoughts sometimes there feeling that the body itself is in this aliveness, not conversely.

It feels like it is always here, sometimes discovered, sometimes not.

Is there a difference between the pure feeling itself, and the label “I/me” attached to it?

Somehow I discovered genuine beingness, aliveness year ago. It was after the very painful for the arrogant ego situation that could not be accepted. So it was like an escape from ego that could not bear itself. Here are some memories how ego was back. It was like adding some ballast to pure weightlessness, more and more. First it was almost imperceptible, but after some additional ballast this aliveness itself became invisible, covered and should be discovered again. So this attachment is very heavy.

Note: even after realising no-self, the 'sense of self', as well as most of the habitual thoughts, feelings and behaviours built up under the illusion of self, will continue to arise from time to time, at least in the short term (not surprisingly - these are lifetime habits). Sometimes this is called 'selfing' ... so 'selfing' carries on for a while, even though it is known that there is no truly existing self at the core of it all.

Thank you so much for this important note. Ego uses any chance to demonstrate the futility of this "investigation". So it's important to consider.

Keep watching and reporting.

Elene

[pozablo]

Excellent, thanks.
More later.
p

[pozablo]

Ego uses any chance to demonstrate the futility of this "investigation".

Many people speak of ego like this, as if it is some real thing with a life of it''s own.

What is this thing that you refer to as ego? Please watch this thing carefully, not trying to figure it out or thinking about it in terms other people have used. Just watch it carefully, then report in some detail what is observed.

Meanwhile, of course, keep watching the other stuff.
This is going very well!

p

[Elene]

Hi Pablo,

What is this thing that you refer to as ego? Please watch this thing carefully, not trying to figure it out or thinking about it in terms other people have used. Just watch it carefully, then report in some detail what is observed.

The ego as it was imagined before was some kind of stable enough entity with its own features, such as believes, values, habits, temperament, history etc. And yes it was imagined as having its own life and power. And it was supposed to be different than “me” and there was the battle inside. And it was continuing to be “alive” till your pointing.

The moment attention moved to this “ego” to find if it really exists, there came obvious that there is no “ego”, as it is no “me” and no internal battle. It feels like much more oxygen around, like being out of cage.
Still some “old” habitual tendencies are observed, like thoughts followed by emotions then more thoughts, but mostly they are recognized when arising.

There are some typical situations that repeat every day and there are also some recognizable changes in this triangle (thought-emotions-more thoughts).

It’s also obvious that all images of “awakening” and expectations that were before are also melting somehow.

[pozablo]

Ah, so sweet, Elena!

Lovely.

Those habitual tendencies you mention...yes, who knows when or if they will stop arising completely. But, recognized as unimportant, they fade into background noise. Like a radio in the other room, even when tuned to a station that does not interest us, they easily capture the attention.... but it's ok. Just part of the human condition. Noise. Unimportant. So much more going on than that.

All those images and expectations...yes. There is so much talk about spirituality, and enlightenment, etc etc. A lot of people making money and getting laid by talking that talk. And lots of others just confused. Magical fantasies of eternal bliss and all-knowing wisdom...of becoming somehow a superior being. More of the same ... wanting More, More, More. Whether it's more money or more power or more ___________, it's just unending. Hungry ghosts, never at peace.

Now there is a taste of peace.
Please tell me, what might be helpful now?

Smiling,
Pablo

[Elene]

Thank you so much, Pablo!
Continuing reporting for a while will be nice. Your pointings are still important.
The feeling is very unusual, "just" peace, nothing more. No firework, no one who was expecting it :)

[pozablo]

Thanks.
I"m with you all the way, and looking forward to more reports.
p.

[Elene]

Hello, Pablo,
Here are some observations:
To be honest when yesterday after reading the message -

Now there is a taste of peace.
Please tell me, what might be helpful now?

- there was a thought: you are somehow misleading the guide, nothing happened, everything is the same, you are just philosophizing after reading Advaita books :)

But after continuing watching of everything that arises some very subtle changes are obvious: No more need or wants. Before when I have read that state of no needs and wants is total freedom it seemed like depression, very unattractive. Suppose because wants were lack of something and had to be fulfilled to allow the state of satisfaction. But now it seems that any want that arise is not equivalent of any lack. The peace is not depended on any wants' fulfillment, it just is. Wants can arise or not, can be satisfied or not but it does not change anything in this peace.

It’s so subtle that my knowledge of English does not allow to be clear enough, sorry.

The another difference is that here is no need to understand anything. Because of my professions analyzing and systematizing processes and observations was very habitual for me. But with no me it also is gone. Somehow thoughts and questions still arise, but here is no interest to know exactly how everything works, what are the mechanisms that run the world etc.

So the questions is: will you advice to continue watching and reporting? Or it’s ok just be :D

With gratitude,

Elene

[pozablo]

The peace is not dependent on any wants' fulfillment, it just is. Wants can arise or not, can be satisfied or not but it does not change anything in this peace.

Yes. Yes. Yes. Lovely.
The mind/body (shall we call it the “organism”?) will continue to move toward those things that produce pleasure and well-being (although the two do not always go together). But it will do so more effectively and creatively and wisely without the noise and confusion and anxiety resulting from the belief that there is an “I” that is responsible for guiding the process.

The other difference is that here is no need to understand anything.

Yes Yes again. Freedom from that as well. If curiosity is in the nature of the organism, that may reappear. Without the waste and confusion of magical thinking about "I" or "God", interest will wane in some areas, grow in others.

you advise to continue watching and reporting? Or it’s ok just be :D

Well, let’s try some standard questions. Is there an “I” anywhere? Has there ever been?

P.

[Elene]

Hi Pablo!

Thank you for reply,

Is there an “I” anywhere? Has there ever been?

Asking this question and nothing at all could be found. It feels like nothing exists at all. Not aggressive “nothing” but just “no thing”. Every movement of body and mind are seen, observed somehow. But the observer itself could not be found.

It’s never been any “I”. Mind still can remember everything but these memories are stored, not “alive” as it used to be. Here is no ballast of past. No future predictions. No mood. But it does not feel like boring or vacuous. It just is. Can’t even remember how I found this Gate. Basically the facts could be remembered, but it is not history and continuation in things or events. Do not feel like “I need to remember when and how it started and should follow it till the end and carry whole story each time”. It’s like when you watch the movie, it’s nice, then you lost in thought and after see that movie did not stopped when you were not watching, it continues and it is no necessary to be concentrated on movie all the time. It just flows it’s own way. Something like that, not good enough metaphor.

The words are not able to clearly express anything, they are too pompous and heavy and make no sense. Everything that is written here makes no sense, is not understandable for mind. Remember before I used to think about such writings that they are too wimp and depressive. Now it’s clear that it is just attempt to describe somehow what could be observed with heavy words and is not depressive at all :)

The same time everything flows as usually, children, people, meeting, talks, duties. The only change is that here is no involvement, it goes the way it goes. As far as some involvement appears, it feels so heavy that is seen momentarily.

It’s obvious that here is no need to own, to possess, not only on physical, but even on intellectual level. Including ownership of knowledge. “My” master is used to say: “I don’t know anything at all”. Now it’s clear what is under these words.

The same time here is not laziness. It was very habitual to “me”. Maybe because everything is flowing by itself here is no reason for laziness? Things happen or don't happen. Both is ok. Don’t know :)

Best regards,

Elene

[Elene]

The mind/body (shall we call it the “organism”?)

Sounds great. Somehow body and mind become the "organism" again after such a lot of efforts to be a "person".

[pozablo]

Beautiful, Elene.
Very happy here. And thank you for such a complete answer.

I haven't guided anybody for a while,so did not ask that question in the official format.

You have already beautifully answered #1, so no need to answer it again in detail, just respond briefly to it as below. Please answer the others in as much or little detail as so moved.

Thanks,
Pablo

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there
ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from
your own experience. Describe it fully as you seeit now.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How
does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
6) What about others? Is anybody to blame for any action? What is the way to relate to those who on purpose cause suffering to others? (that is my question, not an official one!)
7) Anything to add?

[Elene]

Hi Pablo,

Here are some answers to the questions:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there
ever?

No “me” or “I” exists. And never was. More how it’s seen is in previous post, as you've mentioned. Nothing more to add.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from
your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

It’s difficult to explain. Somehow it’s about repeating thoughts that are believed to be real and finally “create” beliefs. For example there is memory from childhood that it was surprising that adults take everything so seriously; everything seemed to be for fun. But after getting call-downs again and again some personal feature “I am not serious enough” and then goal to become more serious finalized. Something like that. And as a result you carry a lot of characteristics, try to remember your history to meet the “expectations” etc. And you believe that you are this role, this person, with past and future. You need to confirm it again and again and there is no rest and end.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days

The difference is very subtle. It’s not like everything is bright and joyful like it’s often described. Answering question attention moves to different fields and it becomes obvious that there are changes. But the feeling is that it was always been like this. Only peace, emptiness and fullness at the same time. Thoughts come and go, emotions come and go.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

The last push was the question about ego, this one:

What is this thing that you refer to as ego? Please watch this thing carefully, not trying to figure it out or thinking about it in terms other people have used. Just watch it carefully, then report in some detail what is observed.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How
does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

Here is nobody to make decisions, to have intentions, to make choice or to control. Here is just observation. Everything happens somehow itself.
No idea what moves it and no interest to understand. At least right now. It’s very funny that some time ego “I” used to be the “effective goal setting” trainer ;) “I” thought a lot about the responsibilities, especially concerning the children. They seemed to be very hard and emotional. And there were a lot of worries about how it will be managed in case of awakening :D So may be it is just the instinct of alive organism, don’t know, but it runs itself more effectively and without worries and anxiety and here is joy of being with children.
Another example: yesterday there was business call with potential business partner. It took around hour. As it happens it was about future plans, responsibilities and decisions that should be made. The attention was on these stuff. It ended with the headache and it was some kind of self-regulation signal. After asking whose future and decisions they are and founding no one, headache disappeared. No idea how this business relationship will continue and if it will continue and no worries about this. Somehow it’s clearly seen how people communicate with each other as with roles, persons, try to offer you some occasions to worry about and are surprised when could not find anyone that worries.

6) What about others? Is anybody to blame for any action? What is the way to relate to those who on purpose cause suffering to others? (that is my question, not an official one!)

It’s very difficult question. Here is seeing that there are no “I”, no persons, no decisions, no responsibilities. Here is no more negative emotions towards people who “made me hurt”. If speak more globally have no opinion at all. Somehow it seems that suffering does not happen. I have heard about different disasters last time. But the feeling is the same if it did not happen. Meaning even imagining of such kind of things provokes much more emotions that are experienced. It’s often said that compassion is very human feeling but somehow do not feel any compassion for last time. It does not mean that here is some opposite feeling, but it just does not exist. I wright about this because it’s said such a lot about love and compassion towards people… But no such kind of feelings, nor their opposites. Just nothing. No idea if it’s good or bad :)

7) Anything to add?

Nothing to add, no opinions, no waiting, no intentions, body/mind is functioning like organism, everything goes it’s own way. No apathy at the same time :) No idea if it is what all this seeking was about, it does not even matter. No Buddha laugh was mentioned, but laugh a lot during last days.

Best regards,

Elene