Seeking guiding

[Annja]

and when eyes shut and the 'fingertip' sensation goes through where the thought of 'face' is...eventually there is a soft warm touch sensation..not sure where that is though...just a sensation with other sensations and sounds..

[moondog]

Hi Gemma,

Once again, lovely comments and description. Like you, I've absolutely no doubts that you've clearly seen that there's no self-entity anywhere, and never was.

So, time for final questions Gemma. When answering question 5, please give specific and very recent examples from direct experience. Once I get your answers, I'll put them forward for other guides for any comments. Then I'll arrange for you to get access to various aftercare and other groups on Facebook and the LU site. Have you got a Facebook name? If so, either let me know here or, if you prefer, PM it to me.

Always from direct experience.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for?

Please give examples from recent experience.

6) Anything to add?

Pete x

[Annja]

Hi Pete

May not be able to post before you look again tomorrow afternoon, as traveling back to England this evening, then with elderly dad. will ponder them on the plane and may be able to have a go in the morning if dad not up early, so look out for a possible post....

Not sure understand question 4. Does 'what was the last bit that pushed you over' mean what was the last bit before 'i' realised there was no separate 'self' during this dialogue, or what was the last bit that pushed 'me' to start the dialogue,
and what does 'what .....made you look' apply to? Does that mean why did 'I' start this process.....

Gemma

[moondog]

Hi Gemma,

No problem. Some time tomorrow will be just fine.

Q4 means whatever it was that finally triggered you to look and actually see there's no separate self, whether it was something I or someone else said, or something you noticed, or whatever. Or maybe it was gradual, with nothing in particular; that's ok too. 'Made you look' just seems to be reiteration of 'pushed you over'. Often they don't, but equally often the guides do have a few queries for their own clarification so, no worries, if any of them want more on this, they'll ask.

None of your answers need be particularly long or detailed, just clear and unambiguous about seeing that there's no separate self anywhere, and never was.

Hope your trip back is ok.

Pete x

[Annja]

Hi Pete

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No there is not a separate 'self' 'me' or 'i' anywhere that can be found. Never was one, but the illusion created by trhe thought of an 'i' was pretty big!
There seems to be others different to interface with yet not separate.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

Well a separate 'self' illusion is when ;i; believe there is a 'me' that can be judged, hurt, hard done to. made happy by having certain things, experiences or outcomes that 'i' want or dont want met. When the illusion seems real it gets a grip and there seems to be a solid 'i' and then 'i' fear a certain outcome that 'i' dont want, fear that 'i' will be judged and give this importance and solidity and suffer worrying about it and how to plan/manipulate others/situations to ensure it does not or does happen.. feel threatened by this and what could happen... The 'i; though 'self' gets stuck thinking its all real and suffering as a consequence...into the 'future; the ;past; which both then seem as though they really exist.
Then awaken into direct experience, thoughts, beliefs, stories no longer facts, real, then just sensing, no worries to be found, just playful light aliveness, curiosity, chuckles even about more painful experiences.like now a lightness, furry warmth sensations and tapping sounds, tingles,...

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days

A relief, a wonder, joyful sometimes.

Yesterday woke to the usual stuff thoughts, beliefs, story, suffering, so sat...the thought 'i did not buy into this direct experience reality'. 'i' just wanted the worry anxiety stuff to be no longer there, to live in the moment and not in the past or future most of the time...to be like it was before the anxiety grew, like normal happy again'' .All 'I' wanted was mu old 'self' back, ..then there was like a journey occured back through my story...and right back to infant school where was the calm peaceful joyful happy for longer than just a short while...nowhere in the story to be found.

So before 'i' started this dialogue that is how it was. Before 'i' had an anchor called 'mindfulness or dharma practice that 'i' knew would always ensure 'i' found my way towards lightness again

Now ..... realising nothing else broke through the illusion of suffering with bits of calm and happiness scattered around that 'I' used to live and thought'i' wanted to have.. with more happiness less suffering of course. This dialogue with direct experience has broken through that... Often still get stuck yet can move into direct experience , wonder/question a bit and lo its alive and light.....all possibilities opening...
Inexplicable chuckles more frequent...delightful becoming a common word in my vocabulary....

With my dad when he gets confused...still into the painful stuck suffer...and yet more easily back to direct experience....play with this on and off throughout the day...calmer more peaceful.. future worry thoughts becoming a trigger to come present...an ongoing effort still...but no alternative...its becoming a habit this direct experience..

Can still shoot dramatically into a reaction..e.g. when partner said the time booked to return the hire car...wooosh in 'i' came and off went 'my' mouth... then noticing come present again...

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

The questions about where the boundaries were between the seer, the seeing process and the seen object, etc, and the exploring of the sensing in this way pushed me over, gave 'me' a way to look and see.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for?

Please give examples from recent experience.

Well there is no'i' to make decisions, things just happen or not...like 'i' can decide to ring a friend...and then something may happen and the call does not get made... later the call gets made as a space occurs and the thought to make the call at the same time....

play a lot with lifting 'my' arm, tapping computer keys and such like now...that just happens or not nothing to do with 'me'...not a 'me' controlling this or anything else it seems...

There is no chooser that 'i' can find so no choice... its like 'i' think 'i' choose something yet when looked at its just a result of what is happening at the time and 'i' think 'i' have chosen... a bit like the idea 'i' choose not to be reactive...then wooosh..there 'i' go again...much less often now though...there is just responses happening.

Intention..well it seems that when 'i' intend to do something like take my dad for lunch at 2. today..things happen and we don't go till 3! Other times 'i' have then cooked at home as lots of other things happened to distract from that intention....#
However, there is the intention to engage with this dialogue...but maybe that is like a plant whose nature is to go towards the light... the nature of awareness is to open to the space..to know itself...so maybe this engagement is not an intention of a separate 'me' it just is how its nature is...like the plant...is there free will? or is it the nature of awareness to thrive and know itself...

And free will...well there is no freedom and thats ok as there is no restraint... so similar with free will...there is no free will as there is no 'prewritten' script ...there just is is-ness....kind of like without a near there is no far...no up as no down...no future as no past... kind of thing...no good as no bad...just this...aliveness rightness feeling aliveness....

Dont know what makes things happen or how it works....beyond phenomena ..conditions arise ....interface ....and responses happen...and more conditions then arise as a response to this interface and meet other conditions, phenomena arising and happenings...and on it goes....

'my responsibility...to be present open responsive honest truthful genuine..

6)

Anything to add?

Well playing in the car whilst driving onto the M25 with the idea of free will, choice like 'i' had the free will choice to do something...anything and it would happen...not a lot you can do whilst driving on the M25 apart from drive though...and it was so strange..the next thing 'i' knew there was the thought "'i' could slap 'my' cheek"...yet my hand was already on its way up before 'i'registered the thought...like a pre/post-glimpse of something already decided...and all 'i' could do was experience the hand coming up and slapping 'my' cheek...not hard but with a bit of a sting...surreal...if 'i' had been in control and choosing and all that would have just tapped with a couple of fingers....

Its bedtime! or awakening time....or just bed...just awake,,warm furry soft...purrry cat noises...trembly soft sensations...dark..light..tapping shapes moving ticking stillnesss.

Gemma x

[moondog]

Hi Gemma,

Thank you for your lovely answers to the questions.

I've asked the guides to have a look at this thread and I'll let you know as soon as I can whether they have any queries to clarify anything, as they often do. It's a good idea to check whenever you can, to keep the flow going if necessary. It can take a day or two, or it can be quicker. No worries.

In the meantime, as I've said, there are quite a few groups you can join if you wish, most of which are on Facebook, so please let me have your details, if you want to join these.

Pete x

[Annja]

Hi Pete
Also to add to

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

This had been coming on gradually...strong meditation practice, huge curiosity and interest... Remember when my curiosity went exponential around Jan 14...just happened got wildly delightedly curious. Tipping in and out of a reality in my sitting meditation.

Then went to a day run by two ordained buddhists at local centre and the focus was openness/spaciousness, clarity, sensitivity/wellbeing...wow hmm ...they talked about 'who is choosing'... etc. ...it made sense to me....and also pointing to things and asking 'what is seen' down the finger...and when pointing to the 'head' well nothing is seen... So then started playing with that idea...bought the book 'on having no head' though not read all yet...been too busy experiencing...
also the body awareness meditation practices 'I' described and the wondering questioning and a way of opening 'my' heart until it expanded taking in the body until heart....mind...body.....awareness all the same somehow, an endless eternal timeless ocean with ripples of communication....no boundaries...
Then 'pointing' with 'myself' in meditation, then with a friend, then talking about this to another friend who suggested this site....
Then a breakthrough with the sense questions and experiencing as described before..

Gemma x

[moondog]

Hi Gemma,

One of the guides is seeking clarification with the following couple of questions:

'What is this awareness that can open space, know itself?"

"Is 'other', like 'self' another thought construct, or are there actual 'things'? When seeing, touching, etc, what is experienced: sensations or a 'other thing'?

Pete x

[moondog]

Hi again Gemma,

One more from another guide.

He says you have said, 'my responsibility...to be present open responsive honest truthful genuine... ' and thinks this could be construed as claiming an autonomous agency with the power to do these things, and so wants you to say,

'Who or what is there to be responsible? What is there other than Life just happening?'

Love,

Pete

[Annja]

Hi Pete
Been out today...back now..figure its language happening....questioning and answering happening....

'What is this awareness that can open space, know itself?"

Well looked at this and the opening space seems to be something that arose when ‘i’ was sitting in the past, a bit like the wondering questioning that happens...tried just being in direct experience as ‘i’ sit and there just is openness there ...cool... within which phenomena sounds smells sensations arise and pass away...guess its ‘my’ trying to use language to express the direct experience causing the above question to arise.... basically there is just is-ness is-ing.

"Is 'other', like 'self' another thought construct, or are there actual 'things'? When seeing, touching, etc, what is experienced: sensations or a 'other thing'?

Other is another thought construct...like ‘cat’ label for furry warm vibrating purr sounding happening...so ‘you’ a label for stuff arising in direct experience ... was playing with this today with an ‘other’ and in direct experience there is shapes colours moving shapes sounds and thoughts arising..yet a little confusing as trying to analyse this as though something there...so played with it some more...

the believing in the story comes still sometimes like of a ‘me’ to which things happen and ‘others’ who are somehow involved in this... like a story where there is questions to answer ....yet when drop into direct experience there is only ...... just questioning and answering happening
on returning home went shopping and the ‘shopkeeper’ was only what is arising in my direct experience.. sounds thoughts shapes...quite surreal...only phenomena actually there...and thoughts arising and passing around the above question as shopping...no separate ‘self’ thinking the thoughts and they arise and pass arise stay around a while and pass....like now as the shapes tap and tapping sounds occur....

physical sensations shapes shadows are experienced when seeing or touching ...like when ‘i’ touch a seemingly solid ‘chair’, in direct experience there is only sensations not an 'other' thing ...shape light colours hard cold.. ... when touch the ‘cat’ there is only soft warm vibrations...sounds...when look...shape...colours... no ‘other’ thing...

Well that was just seriously weird...went shopping with the ‘intention’ of being with an ‘other’ just to play again as its amusing.... ‘self’ ‘other’ thoughts ... well after the shopkeeper pretended to ink a face on ‘my’ face with the pen ‘he’ was holding (he’s never done anything so surreal before)’ ...a question arose from somewhere asking 'him' ‘is there a ‘me’ there now’...add two ‘other’ customers and a lot of laughing arose.....as this was debated... not a 'me’ there deciding what to say next at all!... definitely not a separate ‘self’ in there and no ‘others’ either...just laughing sounds talking sounds shapes moving playfulness...hmmmm

, 'my responsibility...to be present open responsive honest truthful genuine.... ' 'Who or what is there to be responsible? What is there other than Life just happening?'

Well can see why the question from the guide... the languaging suggests an ‘i’ can choose to be this way....guess trying to express how life just happening seems to be in direct experience..alive..responsive aliveness immediacy ..no veils or mists...no obscuring,,no illusion....not a separate 'i' being this...
when in direct experience there is just life happening.....there is no ‘i’ ‘self’ to be responsible...to choose responses...to decide on actions...already figured that cant even ‘choose’ when to raise my arm it just raises or does’nt.......things just happening.... just isness is-ing ....life happening...see shopping experiencing above.....!

Gemma x

[moondog]

Hi Gemma,

I'm happy to say that the guides are now satisfied that you have seen through the illusion of a separate self and none of them has any further queries

I'll now get in touch with LU admin to get you 'turned blue' and they will be contact you with invitations to the various groups etc.

You've been a real joy to guide and I'm very pleased to have played a part in helping you to see through the illusion of a separate self.

Go well Gemma

Lots of love,

Pete