Requesting a guide please

[Freddi]

Hi Jim
How's it going?
Fred

[jima54]

Hi Fred,

More detail later, but I have been looking at my self identity thoughts (what I said felt like a steady state "Me"), then looking at who's looking and creating this looking process - more identity thoughts, then stepping back from the whole conversation. It is becoming clearer the simplicity of differentiating between what is real and what isn't. I have even resorted to looking at and touching real objects and contrasting to the internal dialog content. I have always had another level of thought to go to after a seeming realization, now I see it is all the same, just more illusion creation and separation. This is settling in but the mind is well trained in stubbornness and explanation so many times I come back to remembering the utter uselessness of the mental chatter after periods of absorption in my stories. There is a sense of the finality of loosing my identity, which is a bit alarming. My mind says "well, here you are at the precipice, do you really want to do this?" Then standing back yet again eliminates the question.

Thanks,
Jim

[Freddi]

Hi Jim
Thanks for letting me know you are looking into self identity thoughts, but, as you will know, that is not the point here. It is A LOT simpler than that. Step away from thoughts, and, for a moment, look at what is actually happening, self identity thoughts, like all others, are mini-trips into what's not happening.
I look forward to your answers to my questions.
Warm wishes,
Fred

[jima54]

Hi Fred,

My post acknowledges that simplicity and the need to step away. That was pretty much the intended theme of the post. It just started with looking at the thoughts then realizing the need to drop it all.

Thanks,
Jim

[Freddi]

Great! So NOW would be a good time to drop it all and LOOK, then?

Fred

[jima54]

Hi Fred,

When those subtle aspects of the ‘me-thought’ are still present, is there a problem with them? Who or what has a preference for these to go away completely?
Later you write ‘This can be confusing, the goal seems to be to make it go away and having it still be present feels like failure’. Who or what feels failure? What is there to fail or succeed?

There was a problem until I started stepping back from every assumption, from the thinking trap. I have a habit of describing what happens in the thinking process to explain behaviors. Obviously this is not of any value to me any longer, just chalk it up to a lifetime of trying to explain things that will take time to fall away now that the core problem of self has been seen.

Look at the assumption that says that all this happening needs something to orchestrate it. Again, scan your first-hand experience, come back to your breathing, notice all the vibrant unfolding of Life, the moving, the dancing. Do you see any entity doing it all? Is it all happening by itself? Is the need for a ‘doer’ any more than an assumption which is unsupported by our direct experience? Question it, don’t leave that stone unturned.

I don't see a Central Planning orchestrating the unfolding of life, I used to harbor the thought that it was Me that had some amount of control. "What could possibly be ...." is a statement of wonder, not an assumption that there is anything behind it.

I could go on about trying to describe my experience right now but I sense that my words are creating circles. Even the best free expression of selfless direct experience can be interpreted as only yet another expression of superfluous mental assumptions. The pointing has been done, the looking is happening, and the words are starting to get in the way. Explaining myself is bait to go back into a mental process and use metaphors and symbols to express. I am standing back watching myself stuck in Groundhog Day, like watching a stupid movie over and over again.

It seems that I came into the dialog with a correct intellectual understanding of no self. There was an altering of my experience and a lightness that followed in my general experience. Since then there have been two other points where understanding and experience has deepened. It doesn't appear that sudden enlightenment is the way to date. Will that continue to the way? I have no idea, why is it a problem? There was a subtle shift in the tectonic plates of my being and that led me here. A clarifying and deepening process seems to be proceeding but along the way my empty words are a problem for me. I step back from that, there is no problem, then I say more words that then appear to create another problem. Step back - go around again. Being deeply established in unity awareness you see my fumbling attempts to express as missing the point. Sometimes I am missing the point when sucked back into mentation, other times the point is very clear to me but not expressed accurately I guess.

When you check in your immediate experience, and observe thoughts, do you actually see a link between them? Where do thoughts come from and where do they go?

The mental process creates the stories, the links. When I see and drop mental process and am in present moment awareness the links are gone. Then thoughts arise and then disappear. The experience is that they arise on their own out of nowhere. There is no place that I can detect where they come from.

Look in direct experience, in what is alive, right here and now. In this moment, is there any more than the current thought? In order to talk about a thought causing another, or being affected by a previous one, we have to invoke memories of thoughts, in other words stories. Is cause and effect any more than one of those stories our minds tell?

The same answer as above plus- what is alive right now? Everything. Seems like one alive thing not many alive things.

Thanks,
Jim

[Freddi]

Hi Jim,

The pointing has been done, the looking is happening, and the words are starting to get in the way. Explaining myself is bait to go back into a mental process and use metaphors and symbols to express.

That is perfectly normal. As you are explaining very clearly here, words are a departure from what is, even if they are also an expression of what is, they can’t describe the ineffable happening of this moment. We are all fumbling for words here, and that’s ok.

1)

It doesn't appear that sudden enlightenment is the way to date. Will that continue to the way?

I'm not sure I get what you are saying here? What expectations do you have about what enlightenment is? What do you think liberation would be like?

Sometimes I am missing the point when sucked back into mentation, other times the point is very clear to me but not expressed accurately I guess

In your answers, best to stick to the simplest words and expressions that come up. Imagine I am a child that has no idea what you are talking about.

The mental process creates the stories, the links. When I see and drop mental process and am in present moment awareness the links are gone. Then thoughts arise and then disappear. The experience is that they arise on their own out of nowhere. There is no place that I can detect where they come from.

That is a perfect expression of looking in direct experience, thank you :-)

what is alive right now? Everything. Seems like one alive thing not many alive things.

Great. Yes, not a multiplicity of things. There is only ever one thing happening.

2) So, when you come to your senses and notice all this eventing of the moment, what is ‘Jim’ or ‘Jim-ness’, is there an entity, there, standing apart from all this aliveness, or is it just another expression of Life life-ing?

Thanks!

Fred

[jima54]

Hi Fred,

I'm not sure I get what you are saying here? What expectations do you have about what enlightenment is? What do you think liberation would be like?

The term enlightenment is a tongue in cheek plug word to reference this whole process of liberation. Frankly, all I really expect is to live life with less weight and to feel that I (impersonal I of course) am flowing with it without rejection of what comes and with a sense of completeness and integration.

So, when you come to your senses and notice all this eventing of the moment, what is ‘Jim’ or ‘Jim-ness’, is there an entity, there, standing apart from all this aliveness, or is it just another expression of Life life-ing?

The sense of Jim-ness is a fairly constant mental image that stands apart from awareness like an arm that that I am lugging around; it is always there but is just a part of what is seen to be here and with some utility. Some amount of self image is a requirement to interact functionally as far as I can see right now. It is much easier now to see how awareness entangled with this image enlivens it, makes it seem close and real.

Thanks,
Jim

[Freddi]

Hi Jim,

Frankly, all I really expect is to live life with less weight and to feel that I (impersonal I of course) am flowing with it without rejection of what comes and with a sense of completeness and integration.

Let’s look at this and investigate these expectations.
1) « I expect to live life with less weight ». Look at what is actually happening right now. Is life weighty? How so? Can you breathe without impediment? Can you stand up? Walk around?
2) « I expect to flow with life ». In your immediate experience, have you found a ‘you’ that can flow with life or not? Is it possible not to flow with life? You say 'impersonal, of course'. Is there an impersonal 'you'?
3) « without rejection of what comes and with a sense of completeness and integration ». Where do these ideas of rejection, completeness and integration take place? Can you see, touch, smell, hear these senses of completeness or integration or are they only ideas, thoughts?
If they are only thoughts, is there any problem with them? Can they actually affect what is?
4) Our language is full of alternatives to what is: next time, yesterday, should, could, tomorrow, looking forward. Expectations, too, are alternatives to what is, they are like little journeys into what is not happening, mental projections.
Stop, look, feel. Have you EVER been able to experience an alternative to what is?

Warm wishes,

Fred

[jima54]

Hi Fred,

« I expect to live life with less weight ». Look at what is actually happening right now. Is life weighty? How so? Can you breathe without impediment? Can you stand up? Walk around?

These are word traps again. What is the point of the whole exercise other than to remove the illusion of self so that life can flow with less restriction or distortion? You can then ask when was there ever restriction and distortion and I will respond "why do any of us seek liberation?" This is a circular discussion where I feel that we are talking past each other. The weight I refer to is the condition of living under the influence of an illusory self. Removal of that illusion results in less weight, my words only, for better or worse.

« I expect to flow with life ». In your immediate experience, have you found a ‘you’ that can flow with life or not? Is it possible not to flow with life? You say 'impersonal, of course'. Is there an impersonal 'you'?

Semantics and perspective - again, is it not the point to remove (I know, how can you remove something that was never there) the illusory self and enter the flow? To let life live through us. You can then say we were always in the flow - then why are we here having this exercise, why is there an LU website? The implication in the question is that I still do not experience the simplicity of what is and the illusion of self and need to look further. What exactly is the point here? I would like to hear the precise words that accurately describe this process so that I can use them as well.

« without rejection of what comes and with a sense of completeness and integration ». Where do these ideas of rejection, completeness and integration take place? Can you see, touch, smell, hear these senses of completeness or integration or are they only ideas, thoughts?
If they are only thoughts, is there any problem with them? Can they actually affect what is?

We have covered this ground many times. Any time an alleged problem is referenced we can always imply that there really is no problem. It is only a product of the illusory self, or thought in general, which isn't real, therefor the problem isn't real and never existed in reality in the first place. I take all of that for granted now. But - when I am asked what I want I will describe release from my previous state regardless of it's cause. It is, or was, the perceived condition at the time. There are no words that can't be construed as coming from thought as they are only symbols and can always be questioned as to their validity. It's a merry-go-round that I would like to get off of (who wants to get off ... right?) I may need to start sending blank pages in response, that may be the most accurate representation of ... what? Where I am right now? No - can't say that. There's no me to be anywhere :-)

Our language is full of alternatives to what is: next time, yesterday, should, could, tomorrow, looking forward. Expectations, too, are alternatives to what is, they are like little journeys into what is not happening, mental projections.
Stop, look, feel. Have you EVER been able to experience an alternative to what is?

EVER implies I should remember my experience in the past and compare to now? That is a thought, not real, how can I do that? Included within "What Is" is confusion, contraction, all kinds of fun stuff. We take these thoughts to be the real state until we get some level of clarity. All of this can be refuted as well right? Until - That is time based. Level - wasn't clarity always present, how can there be levels? Take - who is taking?

Have you ever watched Tony Parsons? He speaks at great length about how there never was a problem, there isn't anyone to get enlightened, there isn't anything anyone can do to become enlightened, there is no place to get to - you are already there. And many in the audience are thinking "Then why are you here speaking to me, what is your point?" Yes, life is living us, that is what we are and there is no self in control of this. Yet here we are talking about it. Why? Life is, and this dialog is a part of it. That is all. What else can be said?

I see thought for what is is now. The old illusory self continues to fade in my mind and a lighter living is taking its place. There is still a falling away of previous habits and beliefs, it will take time or it won't. Self less awareness continues to grow in my experience. The experience of everything as one thing continues to deepen. All of these are written as though a process is taking place. The ideal is that they are already in place and there is nothing to be done as "What Is" always is/was/will be. How do we reconcile the difference in terms when referencing process vs the ideal? It seems the dialog keeps switching unexpectedly between the two. Refusal to acknowledge a process basically nullifies the need for any dialog. What is the purpose?

Thanks,
Jim

[Freddi]

Hi Jim,

Thanks for your post. I see quite a bit of frustration in there. I also see that the process of questioning thoughts is well under way. In fact, you ask the questions and answer for yourself, you are guiding yourself ;-)
I’m only holding up a mirror here. This is between ‘you’ and ‘you’.

What is the point of the whole exercise other than to remove the illusion of self so that life can flow with less restriction or distortion?

No the point of the exercise is not to remove the illusion of self, but to see it as an illusion. Once seen in experience, it may or may not return, but it is no longer a problem.

The implication in the question is that I still do not experience the simplicity of what is and the illusion of self and need to look further.

Consider this for a moment: You have only ever experienced what is. In fact, you have never experienced duality. You only think you have.
Stop and look. Can you give me an idea of what it would be like to experience the simplicity of what is, beyond what is already here and now?

It's a merry-go-round that I would like to get off of (who wants to get off ... right?) I may need to start sending blank pages in response, that may be the most accurate representation of ... what? Where I am right now? No - can't say that. There's no me to be anywhere :-).

That’s it! No words, no descriptions apply. You are getting good at asking the questions and answering! It really is that simple.

The old illusory self continues to fade in my mind and a lighter living is taking its place. There is still a falling away of previous habits and beliefs, it will take time or it won't. Self less awareness continues to grow in my experience. The experience of everything as one thing continues to deepen. All of these are written as though a process is taking place. The ideal is that they are already in place and there is nothing to be done as "What Is" always is/was/will be

You know, Jim, seeing that the self is/was/will always be just an idea, an illusion, is only a beginning (and, yes, that implies some kind of process in time, but we are fumbling for words, here).
Habitual thinking and conditioning continue to come up, but as they do, they are questioned, investigated, and seen over and over as unreal. It is a bit like an engine that has been switched off, but continues to run for a while. That is why at LU we have a couple of 'after-care' support groups where 'people' who have crossed the 'gate' share their experiences and can get help with recurring habitual thinking.

The weight I refer to is the condition of living under the influence of an illusory self.

Would you say that you are not 100 % clear about having seen through the illusion of the separate self?
Or are you disappointed because seeing the absence of self does not match what’s in the spiritual brochure? Life already flows through ‘you’ - sometimes it is bland, sometimes it is painful, and at other times it will be blissful. It will contain highs and lows, left and right, black and white. It is a roller-coaster ride and it is a permanent miracle. All that is needed is to stop and look.
One person I helped through the gate a few months ago wrote this to me: "Peace comes not from ending the war, not from all being in full agreement, peace comes from the allowing of the full expression, or rather realizing that the full expression is already allowed".

Would you like to do some more pointing exercises, to get to the bottom of this illusion?

Warm wishes,

Fred

[jima54]

Hi Fred,

No the point of the exercise is not to remove the illusion of self, but to see it as an illusion. Once seen in experience, it may or may not return, but it is no longer a problem.

I mean the same thing; the illusion is the belief it is self, that is what I say is removed, although the thoughts and images and even the sensation of a self may remain. At first after initial seeing when the sensation of self would be detected I would think "It's still not gone", I have since realized that it will likely remain in some form or another, but that is okay. It will be useful and I view it now almost like a familiar part of the family.

Would you say that you are not 100 % clear about having seen through the illusion of the separate self?
Or are you disappointed because seeing the absence of self does not match what’s in the spiritual brochure? Life already flows through 'you’

The weight I referenced is greatly lessened since approximately 2 months ago. I am 100% sure of having seen through the illusion and am not disappointed in any way. In fact there is a subtle joy. These were my words in the last post - "The important thing is that I no longer carry the illusion of a separate self"

I clearly understand and it is my experience that a lot of what was before will continue, the difference is it's okay. The perceived sufferer of before is not there anymore. It seems like events play themselves out and tend to resolve more quickly into the next natural movement. Events or life motion seem more like thoughts now, they arise out of nowhere and resolve back into nothing.

I am interested in how people navigate after seeing through self. Does doubt return in some circumstances, what are some useful tips for working with persistent beliefs after seeing. What are some of the more common and difficult traps that can occur.

Thanks,
Jim

[Freddi]

Hi Jim
This is what I suggest to you: I give you our six summing-up questions and, when you and I are both happy with your answers, I invite other guides to look at our thread, to be sure.
Then your name will turn blue on the forum and you will be invited to the support groups where you can share experiences, tips, persistent beliefs, and ask for advice if necessary.
What do you say?
Warm wishes
Fred

[jima54]

Hi Fred,

I will look forward to the questions. Thanks for all of your help, I have benefited greatly from this.

Thanks,
Jim

[Freddi]

Hi again, Jim

Great! Here are the questions. Take your time with them. Contemplate them. As usual, don’t look in your thoughts for the answers, scan your most intimate and immediate experience, what is alive, true, here and now. Stay as much as you can away from spiritual jargon, and use your own words.
Be as detailed as you like and don’t forget examples for question 5.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
 
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now. 
 
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
 
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? 
 
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
 
6) Anything to add?

I look forward to your answers!

Warm wishes,

Fred