Seeking for a guide

[Vivien]

Hi Sayah,

I read your post, and after that just started to cry. Felt enourmos gratitude towards you and.. well, for everything. Funny. Like with no reason first just burst in to tears. This is so great..

:) yes, for some, feeling of gratitude often arises with this process.

So actually I don't need thoughts to feel, that actually it is totally opposite. That thoughts just label the sensations in the body. Or do I need a thought "run away" to run away? Or is there a running just happening...and then the thought of "i'm running" comes? oh, my head is burning now..

Since probably you don’t have to run away from a tiger in the next day or so, I would suggest observing other arising feelings.

When you’re thirsty, do you need a thought first that “I’m thirsty” in order to feel thirst in the body, or does the sensation arise first, followed by a mental label “I’m thirsty”?
Is it possible that sometimes there is a physical sensation first (like thirst or hunger) in the body, followed by a mental label, and other times there is a thought first “I screwed it up” followed by an emotional response in the body?

In the next few days, pay attention to any arising sensations in the body that are labelled as some kind of emotion or states (love, sadness, anger, frustration, peace…)
What happens when the label “I’m angry” is believed or taken seriously?
And what happens when the label is ignored, and the attention goes only to the raw sensation?

Past and future is just a content of thought; memory or fantasy, and they are not real. The third question.. hmmm.. mind is such a large concept..I don't know..it just is, where it is. Nowhere. In thoughts you think, your mind is somewhere, but it's just another thought. Thought of your own mind.

So, is there any proof that the past has ever happened?
Is there a ‘me’ that owns the ‘mind’?

All arising thoughts are real at every moment and part of the current experience, but it's content isn't... so if a person believes his thoughts to be real, then the current experience kinda "suffers", and he lives in imaginery world. Hmm.. actually it is his current experience, worry or dream. It is what it is.

What is this ‘me’ that could live in an imaginary world?
Where is it in direct experience?

No, there is no an awarer, that's a thought too! There is nothing or nobody that is aware. Your mind think there is.

Can a mind think?

There were a thought "I'm gonna choose the right hand". Then "I" chose the right hand. Then a thought "move it now", or "no, I won't" like a dialogue.. and the hand was rising like "it wanted" while my mind was in the middle of the funny dialogue. Hah! So it has it's own way of moveing. But sometimes it moved, similary like the thought.

So what makes the hand move?
Or there is just moving?

Right now, chooseing happens, and then the mind labells it "I am chooseing". It's not totally clear to me.. but I get it in some way and "know" that it's the truth. Like right now, I'm very tired, so I have sensations in my body; eyes tickels, yawning happens, and then the mind labells it "I'm tired, I wanna go to bed". And then "I" go to bed. So is it that I would go to bed anyways, with or without my mental narrative... that it's just commenting EVERYTHING and putting the concept of "I" in every sentence?

Good question. Find it out. :)

Can you choose to fall asleep?
Can you find the moment / point / spot where you choose to fall asleep?
Is there a chooser?

Here is an interesting exercise with the body.
With the eyes closed, sitting still, notice the other sensations: hearing, smelling, tasting, touching. With only the input from those four senses, and without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can you know how tall the body is?
Can you know the weight or the volume of the body?
Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?
In direct experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Is there an inside or outside?
What is the body in direct experience?

Love, Vivien

[Sayah]

Hey Vivien!

When you’re thirsty, do you need a thought first that “I’m thirsty” in order to feel thirst in the body, or does the sensation arise first, followed by a mental label “I’m thirsty”?

No, I don't need a thought of beeing thirsty. Sensations comes and then thought.

Is it possible that sometimes there is a physical sensation first (like thirst or hunger) in the body, followed by a mental label, and other times there is a thought first “I screwed it up” followed by an emotional response in the body?

Yep, both ways. Thought "I look ugly" and propably the feeling of depression arises.

What happens when the label “I’m angry” is believed or taken seriously?

It makes stronger the feeling and sensations in the body. Today I noticed I was a bit nervous to see one person. I noticed, that there were sensations of uneasyness.. and noticed a thought "What if she doesen't like my clothes..blaa..blaa" and therefor came the uneasy sensations in the body. So if the thoughts are believed as truth, a lot of sensations come to body: stress, fear, anxiety, sadness... it's all mostly caused by thoughts taken seriously.

And what happens when the label is ignored, and the attention goes only to the raw sensation?

Sensation deseppears. When "you" give your full attention to sensations, they just pass by..they come, but they also go. When today noticed these sensations, tried to accept them as they are, felt like a mother watching own baby, and it kinda went away, got smaller, that it had nothing real under there, under sensation, just a thought believed.

So, is there any proof that the past has ever happened?

This is a tricky question.. well, obviously past has happend, this body is here, it has been born from a mother and father, got dna and genes from there, friends, schools, everything that has happend has brought this person called Sayah in this point, right now and right here. "I" am past. But at the same time, past is a story, it's a memory; a thought, so at THIS moment past isn't real, but it HAS happend. "I" am a proof of past, this body-mind combination. There are some behaviour for example, that has learned from home, from parents.. OR actually it's a thought too! Damn, it always comes to this same... IT'S ALL JUST THOUGHTS! (starting to get frustrated at this, to get it and not to get it, at the same time)

Is there a ‘me’ that owns the ‘mind’?

No.

What is this ‘me’ that could live in an imaginary world?

Yeah, there is no me, it's just a thought too. It's all just thoughts...

Where is it in direct experience?

I'm not sure actually what direct experience is.. Is it the present moment as it is? How this body-mind function every moment, without focusing the mental narrative? Can you even put to words of what is direct experience (or what happens in it)?

Can a mind think?

Thoughts "live" in mind. That mind is like there home. Mind itself is a big, endless, deepest mystery of all, but thoughts are like small things "happening" there.

So what makes the hand move?
Or there is just moving?

There is just moveing happening. Noticed many times today the same thing. That things just happen, without needing a mental narrative to that. Actually they did many times differently. Body gets up the chair and does something and mind thinks something about tomorrow..

Can you choose to fall asleep?
Can you find the moment / point / spot where you choose to fall asleep?
Is there a chooser?[/quote

Yes, very good question! I really CAN'T choose when to fall asleep! Nor find any moment, point or spot to that..
Chooser is just a thought.

Can you know how tall the body is?

No

Can you know the weight or the volume of the body?

No

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?

Well, yes I can feel the clothes touching my skin.

Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

I can feel the chair against my back and under my legs.

In direct experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Funny feeling.. when just beeing present eyes closed, you really can't "feel" the shape or form of the body.

Is there an inside or outside?

I can't really separate them.. feels that there is just "one thing"..but of course I feel a tongue INSIDE my mouth, so inside it is..yes, I feel inside but NOT outside. Feel breathing etc.

What is the body in direct experience?

I don't know..it just is.

Thank you Vivien!

Love, Sayah

[Vivien]

Dear Sayah,

When "you" give your full attention to sensations, they just pass by..they come, but they also go. When today noticed these sensations, tried to accept them as they are, felt like a mother watching own baby, and it kinda went away, got smaller, that it had nothing real under there, under sensation, just a thought believed.

Very good observations. What is resisted persists. The avoidance itself strengthens what was intended to be eliminated. The more ‘I’ want to get rid of something the better ‘I’ get attached to it. Because when something is resisted it means that its ‘reality’ is already approved. There would not be a need to eliminate something if it had not been believed that thing is real and true. So the thing is ‘believed’ into ‘reality’. It does not mean that it is real, but it can seem real.

But when there is no resistance to WHAT IS here and now, thoughts and feelings can be seen for what they are – simply thoughts and bodily sensations passing by, like clouds on the sky.

This is a tricky question.. well, obviously past has happend, this body is here, it has been born from a mother and father, got dna and genes from there, friends, schools, everything that has happend has brought this person called Sayah in this point, right now and right here. "I" am past. But at the same time, past is a story, it's a memory; a thought, so at THIS moment past isn't real, but it HAS happend. "I" am a proof of past, this body-mind combination. There are some behaviour for example, that has learned from home, from parents.. OR actually it's a thought too! Damn, it always comes to this same...

Nice. :)
You wrote: ‘I’ am past.
If the ‘I’ is just a thought, then what is ‘past’?

Just consider . . .
Look in the mirror. See the body.
Was the body that is seen in the mirror, the one that was born on a certain date?
Or is the body that is being witnessed in the mirror, different to the body that was born on a certain date?

Other than this thought, how else is it known that the body was born on that specific date?
Or is the thought the only link?
And because that thought is believed in, it is said to be 'reality'.

However, all it is just a thought appearing that is believed in?
Can you see this?

This is not to dismiss it as a valid idea. However, can you see that 'This body was born on xxxx' is simply a thought appearing that is believed in? And nothing more than that.

So, can this body have a past?
Or everything that is labelled as ‘past’ is just a mental story?
Other than contents of thought stories is there a past?

Damn, it always comes to this same... IT'S ALL JUST THOUGHTS! (starting to get frustrated at this, to get it and not to get it, at the same time)

Yes, it’s all just thoughts :)

What is it that get frustrated?
What is it that can get it and not get it at the same time?
Or this is just another thought taken to be real?

I'm not sure actually what direct experience is.. Is it the present moment as it is? How this body-mind function every moment, without focusing the mental narrative? Can you even put to words of what is direct experience (or what happens in it)?

When we talk about direct experience we refer to the 5 senses: seeing, hearing, touching/feeling, smelling, tasting; + noticing the arising thoughts. This last one is often left out from the investigation, but since you can differentiate from an arising thought and the content of the thought, I left it in the list.
So direct experience is simply what is here and now, in this moment and can be sensed with the 5 senses. We can use other synonyms to direct experience (DE), like sensation prior to thoughts, or uninterpreted moment.

And yes, you’re totally right, direct experience can never be described with words. In DE there is no DE, this is just another mental label on WHAT IS. And still, we use words to try to describe what is in DE (and often unsuccessfully)

Thoughts "live" in mind. That mind is like there home. Mind itself is a big, endless, deepest mystery of all, but thoughts are like small things "happening" there.

Go to the experience of this moment.
So, what is the thinker of thoughts?
Can you find an 'I' that generates the thoughts?
Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience?
Can it be found?

Is there an 'I' that controls thoughts?
Is there an ‘I’ or a ‘thing’ that has ownership of thoughts?
What do the thoughts belong to? What owns them?

Using thinking, do you think you'll ever find anything OTHER than thoughts?
I mean, we are looking for a REAL 'I' right now aren't we?

ell, yes I can feel the clothes touching my skin.

OK. You already ‘know’ how to differentiate between an arising thought and the content of the thought.

When we talk about thinking, there are two types of ‘thoughts’:
(1) The mental narrative that appears as words
(2) mental images that appear as visual pictures (like memories about the past)

I invite you to do this exercise:
Think of a cup. Get a very clear picture in your mind. See clearly the size, shape, colour, volume of the cup. Notice whether it is decorated or plain. Notice whether it has a handle. Notice whether it is heavy or fragile. Do you have a clear picture in mind?
Now, can you physically grasp that image of a cup?
Can you pour tea into it? Can you drink from it? In Reality?

This mental image of the cup is the same thing as an arising thought “I’m ugly”. As an arising mental image it is real, but its content (cup) is just an imagination.

So, when we try to find the boundary of the body and clothes, in DE experience there are:
(1) the raw sensations of touching/feeling
(2) arising mental image of the body or particular body parts with ‘clothes on’
(3) arising mental narrative (thoughts) interpreting the mental image: “I can feel the clothes touching my skin”

So, if you ignore not just the mental narrative but the mental images as well, what is left?
Is there a body, or skin, or clothes in DE?
Or there is just touching/feeling?

I can feel the chair against my back and under my legs.

Same thing.
Is there a chair, or a back, or legs in the raw sensation?
Or there is just touching/feeling?
Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that there is a chair or back?
Or just mental images and thoughts suggest them?

Funny feeling.. when just beeing present eyes closed, you really can't "feel" the shape or form of the body.

Yes, good observation.

I can't really separate them.. feels that there is just "one thing"..but of course I feel a tongue INSIDE my mouth, so inside it is..yes, I feel inside but NOT outside. Feel breathing etc.

Again, the same thing.
Apart from mental images about ‘a tongue and mouth’ and the thought label “I feel a tongue inside my mouth”, is there a tongue or mouth hidden somewhere in the sensation?
Without mental images and narratives is there an inside or outside?

What is the body in direct experience?

I don't know..it just is.

So, is there a body in direct experience?
Or in other words, does the body exist in DE?
Or there are just sensations?

Thank you Vivien!

You’re very welcome :)

Love, Vivien

[Sayah]

Hello Vivien!

I have felt a little different today. Somehow more light. There clearly is something happening.. Meeting people is easier somehow.. like "I" forget "myself" and just be more present, not that much concentrateing "my" mental narrative. I also did today Reiki for my friend, and for the first time I really felt, that "i" had nothing to do with that, that there is NOBODY controlling ANYTHING what happens, felt like my hands aren't "mine", they just do what they do. Feelings of relief, lightness and joy. Wow! :) So greatful! Vivien, thank you sooo much for helping me!!

If the ‘I’ is just a thought, then what is ‘past’?

Yes, now I get it. The past is also a thought. Just a thought. Rememberd a very powerful dream, that I saw few years ago. I was sitting on the ground, watching in the sky, seeing clouds.. and everything around me moveing fast, then realized they were my thoughts, past and future, fantasies, dreams... and I was just sitting still. Then a sentence came to sky: "There is no past, no future, only this moment" And all I saw, was a BEAUTIFUL clear sky, with no clouds. Hah! Could dream teach you more clearly?! :):)

Was the body that is seen in the mirror, the one that was born on a certain date?

No! :)

Or is the body that is being witnessed in the mirror, different to the body that was born on a certain date?

Yes yes.

Other than this thought, how else is it known that the body was born on that specific date?
Or is the thought the only link?

Well, there must be documents, papers, pictures.. of my birth moment. But it's not THIS body at THIS moment. It's just a thought. Since I can't travel to year 1979, and experience it again (luckily :)), then it must be only a thought.

However, all it is just a thought appearing that is believed in?
Can you see this?

Yes, I can see it. My birth, or anything happend after that, has nothing to do with THIS moment.

So, can this body have a past?
Or everything that is labelled as ‘past’ is just a mental story?
Other than contents of thought stories is there a past?

No, it can't. Only in the level of thoughts. But they are not real. Has nothing to do with REALITY.

What is it that get frustrated?

Yep, I laughed when realized "my" thoughts yesterday: "I will never get this", "Vivien must be frustrated with my stupid questions", "Yes, I'm a looser, not wise enough to figure this out..." HAH. Well, if these thoughts are believed, no wonder that feeling of frustration arises! :) :) So how would I put this..again, there is nothing REAL under there. The feeling again went away, when realized they are ONLY thoughts, and NOT real.

What is it that can get it and not get it at the same time?
Or this is just another thought taken to be real?

Yep, ALL thoughts!

So, what is the thinker of thoughts?

It's also just a thought. Thought, that there is a thinker. :)

Can you find an 'I' that generates the thoughts?

No. Thoughts just arise, go and come again.. with NO ONE to generate them.

Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience?
Can it be found?

No there is no thinker, it's only a thought too. It appears in the experience, as a content of thought, which isn't real.

Is there an 'I' that controls thoughts?
Is there an ‘I’ or a ‘thing’ that has ownership of thoughts?
What do the thoughts belong to? What owns them?

No there is no I, that controls the thoughts, nothing controls them. And no one is owning them either. They are just thoughts, and belong to NO ONE.

Using thinking, do you think you'll ever find anything OTHER than thoughts?
I mean, we are looking for a REAL 'I' right now aren't we?

That is exacly what I have realized now, that why there are feelings of frustrations or whatever.. because "i" am TRYING so hard to figure this out by THINKING. And realized, it's not gonna happen that way. Because thinking is thoughts and there is all the time this "I"... and what ever.. it's all thoughts! So no, I'll find nothing there, nothing real. And it's so hard to put in words, when today had these "no one is here to talking with this friend" -moments.. it just feels, that "i" have no idea, who is talking with my friend. Talking just happens, like listening and laughing. And it is such a freeing feeling!!! I can just say, that there is such lighness in beeing today. No idea, what REAL "I" is. Is there such? What is it?

Now, can you physically grasp that image of a cup?
Can you pour tea into it? Can you drink from it? In Reality?

No. :)

So, if you ignore not just the mental narrative but the mental images as well, what is left?
Is there a body, or skin, or clothes in DE?
Or there is just touching/feeling?

Yep, now I got it! Last time "I got fooled" by mental narrative and images! Really, if just "be", there is only feeling. Actually it's hard to explain more, than that. There is only a "feeling". If you are totally present, you can't really separate "your body".

Is there a chair, or a back, or legs in the raw sensation?
Or there is just touching/feeling?
Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that there is a chair or back?
Or just mental images and thoughts suggest them?

No no no! Haha. Now I really get it. They are just images. Sensations of course can't suggest ANYTHING. :)

Apart from mental images about ‘a tongue and mouth’ and the thought label “I feel a tongue inside my mouth”, is there a tongue or mouth hidden somewhere in the sensation?
Without mental images and narratives is there an inside or outside?

No and no! They are all just mental narrative! Wow, somehow "I" feel great at this moment. Something is really opening RIGHT now. And feelings of huge gratitude arises.. and also tears. Oh, boy.. :) I sense something and my mind labels it "something big and unexpected".. heh.

So, is there a body in direct experience?
Or in other words, does the body exist in DE?
Or there are just sensations?

Yep, in REAL experience, there is no body. just sensations. Wow. Oh, this insight! :)

Viven, I'm leaveing to another town for the next three days, for a very intensive work project. I don't have a computer there in the field. So I have to answer you by my cell phone, and it's kinda tricky.. so don't mind, if there is no quote, or fewer sentences. And also, going to work at least 12 hours a day, so I try my best for sure to answer you at least once a day, BUT, if it is impossible, then it is. Just wanted to let you know, if you won't hear me for a day, I'm still here and hell yeah, gonna go all the way. :)

Love, Sayah

[Vivien]

Dear Sayah,

I'm leaveing to another town for the next three days, for a very intensive work project. I don't have a computer there in the field. So I have to answer you by my cell phone, and it's kinda tricky..

Thank you for letting me know. You don’t have to post while you’re away if it’s too complicated, but if you feel like doing, or you would like to share something, feel free to do that. Do what suits you best.

So greatful! Vivien, thank you sooo much for helping me!!

Very welcome :) But actually, you are doing the looking, you’re doing the work, I’m just pointing where to look.

Rememberd a very powerful dream, that I saw few years ago......Then a sentence came to sky: "There is no past, no future, only this moment"

Beautiful :)

So, can this body have a past?

No, it can't. Only in the level of thoughts. But they are not real. Has nothing to do with REALITY.

Excellent. Let’s talk about ‘reality’ then. We use the word ‘reality’ with direct pointing to distinguish the mental narrative, images and concepts from what is here and now in DE. To see, what is real and what is not. However, the word ‘reality’ suggests an objective 'thing', whereas we are referring to a relationship, actually a relating.

So, if we go a step further…
Can we say that there is an objective, independent reality?
If a tree falls in a forest but nobody (human or animal) is around to hear it, is there a sound?

So, what is the thinker of thoughts?

It's also just a thought. Thought, that there is a thinker. :)

So, if there is no thinker (subject) then can there be thoughts (object)?
Or there is only thinking?

And it's so hard to put in words, when today had these "no one is here to talking with this friend" -moments.. it just feels, that "i" have no idea, who is talking with my friend. Talking just happens, like listening and laughing.

If there is no ‘me’ here, then is there a ‘he’ or ‘she’ in others?
Is there a dividing line between ‘me’ and ‘you’?

There is only a "feeling". If you are totally present, you can't really separate "your body".

And if “you’re not totally present” then you can separate ‘your body’?
If there is nothing outside of this present moment, then can anything be totally present or not totally present?
Is there anything outside of direct experience?

in REAL experience, there is no body. just sensations.

So, if there is no BODY in DE, then is there an inside or outside?
When there is hearing, is there a ‘me inside’ and a sound ‘outside’, or there is just hearing?
When something is seen, is there a ‘me inside’ and seen ‘outside’, or there is just seeing?

Just wanted to let you know, if you won't hear me for a day, I'm still here and hell yeah, gonna go all the way. :)

Does this mean that seeking is still going on?

(It’s fine if yes, I just would like to get a clear picture).
Here is the opening sentence, when you started this thread.

I am seeking a guide to "see through".

Is there a person, a separate self here right now that needs guiding?
Can you find one?
Is there even a 'you' that is doing the seeking?
Is there a 'you' that chose to begin this conversation?

Love, Vivien

[Sayah]

Hey Vivien!

I had no time in the field to catch up this conversation, but now I'm back home, so let's continue. And yes, I really want to "go all the way through" with you, Vivien. :)

Can we say that there is an objective, independent reality?
If a tree falls in a forest but nobody (human or animal) is around to hear it, is there a sound?

Reality is same as "my" five senses. There is not "your" reality and "his" reality. There is only reality, what this body-mind can sense. The rest is just thoughts about reality. I can THINK what is going on in the world at this moment, read a newspaper etc. but it is not real at this moment, at this room, at this moment. Reality is to see letters in the newspaper, and if some feeling arises after reading a news from a war, that feeling is real, not that news. "I" just makes images of that war, and that's why sensations arises.

The second guestion is a classic! There is no sound, there is not even a forest or a tree. Cos it's always related to spectator.

So, if there is no thinker (subject) then can there be thoughts (object)?
Or there is only thinking?

Well yes, if there is not a subject, there can not be a object either. Only thinking.

If there is no ‘me’ here, then is there a ‘he’ or ‘she’ in others?
Is there a dividing line between ‘me’ and ‘you’?

No, there is no "she" or "he" in others. There is just seeing, hearing, or touching etc. with "others" happening. And the line comes only in the images of thoughts. In reality there is no such.

And if “you’re not totally present” then you can separate ‘your body’?
If there is nothing outside of this present moment, then can anything be totally present or not totally present?
Is there anything outside of direct experience?

There is nobody to separate the body. The body is and does what it does, and separation happens only in thoughts. "not beeing present or beeing present", is only a thought too.
And, there is NOTHING outside of this moment, so there can NOT be anything present, or less present, or totally not present. It's only happening in thoughts; these judgements.
There is nothing outside of direct experience. In the content of thoughts there are, but not at this moment.

if there is no BODY in DE, then is there an inside or outside?
When there is hearing, is there a ‘me inside’ and a sound ‘outside’, or there is just hearing?
When something is seen, is there a ‘me inside’ and seen ‘outside’, or there is just seeing?

Yep, there is always just hearing, seeing, or touching etc. And there is no outside or inside, they are only images in thoughts. It happens in thoughts; you, me, others, my body, your body, I see, I hear, you run, I run... there is just running happening.

Is there a person, a separate self here right now that needs guiding?
Can you find one?

Well, there is still happening the identyfying of thoughts.. "I'm" starting to get little more clear picture of REALITY, but..... like I know, there is not a separate self, who needs guiding. There is this thought of "I, who wants to see the TRUTH". I realize, that it can not happen in the level of thoughts, it can only happen in the direct experience, the SEEING. As long as I try to "figure this out", it is only banging my head to wall, and uneasiness arises...

There has been thoughts that this conservation is also "for nothing". That there is NOTHING to solve. That my mind is, that makes something to solve. There is no truth, that needs to be "seen". The truth is HERE and NOW. Sometimes I just start to laugh, when thinking of this process. What is this process anyway?! To "learn" that there is NOTHING to learn. :) :)

Is there even a 'you' that is doing the seeking?
Is there a 'you' that chose to begin this conversation?

No there is no "me" doing the seeking, or started this conversation. It's all happening in the level of thoughts. "i" see now more clearly how all my "misery" is caused by this thought of "I", that is believed. Still do. In the work project, "i" did these excercises "in my thought". Realized, when I was nervous or whatever, and EVERY time, it was caused by believeing thoughts. Every time, "i" saw it, the sensations of "heart pumping fast etc." desappeared.

But still can't see ALL the way THROUGH...

Love, Sayah

[Vivien]

Dear Sayah,

Reality is same as "my" five senses. There is not "your" reality and "his" reality. There is only reality, what this body-mind can sense. The rest is just thoughts about reality. I can THINK what is going on in the world at this moment, read a newspaper etc. but it is not real at this moment, at this room, at this moment. Reality is to see letters in the newspaper, and if some feeling arises after reading a news from a war, that feeling is real, not that news. "I" just makes images of that war, and that's why sensations arises.

Yes, good looking.

There is no sound, there is not even a forest or a tree. Cos it's always related to spectator.

Excellent. :)

if there is not a subject, there can not be a object either. Only thinking.

Is this a logical conclusion, or is it clearly seen in DE?

There is nobody to separate the body. The body is and does what it does, and separation happens only in thoughts. "not beeing present or beeing present", is only a thought too.
And, there is NOTHING outside of this moment, so there can NOT be anything present, or less present, or totally not present. It's only happening in thoughts; these judgements.
There is nothing outside of direct experience. In the content of thoughts there are, but not at this moment.

Beautifully said. :) An appearing thought is real, but never its content. Its content is just a fantasy. Its content SEEMS to be ‘real’ when the thought is believed (or in other words: when being lost in the content of a thought happens) and not seen for what it is – simply just an arising thought.

Yep, there is always just hearing, seeing, or touching etc. And there is no outside or inside, they are only images in thoughts. It happens in thoughts; you, me, others, my body, your body, I see, I hear, you run, I run... there is just running happening.

Exactly.

There has been thoughts that this conservation is also "for nothing". That there is NOTHING to solve. That my mind is, that makes something to solve. There is no truth, that needs to be "seen". The truth is HERE and NOW. Sometimes I just start to laugh, when thinking of this process. What is this process anyway?! To "learn" that there is NOTHING to learn. :) :)

Exactly. There is a habitual tendency to resist whatever arises in this moment. Because in this moment there is no identification with the I-thought (which is also just a habit). But as soon as the resistance take place, the illusion of the sense of ‘I’ emerges.

No there is no "me" doing the seeking, or started this conversation. It's all happening in the level of thoughts. "i" see now more clearly how all my "misery" is caused by this thought of "I", that is believed. Still do. In the work project, "i" did these excercises "in my thought". Realized, when I was nervous or whatever, and EVERY time, it was caused by believeing thoughts. Every time, "i" saw it, the sensations of "heart pumping fast etc." desappeared.

Yes, good observations. Emotional response ‘comes from’ believing thoughts. When the thoughts are not believed the associated emotional response is cut. And every time it is ‘cut’ the association is weakened.

But does this mean that there is a desire or an expectation not being lost in the content of a thought?
Or not having an emotional response?
What desires it?
Is there a ‘me’ that wants to be free from thoughts, or this is just another thought?

Well, there is still happening the identyfying of thoughts.. "I'm" starting to get little more clear picture of REALITY, but..... like I know, there is not a separate self, who needs guiding. There is this thought of "I, who wants to see the TRUTH". I realize, that it can not happen in the level of thoughts, it can only happen in the direct experience, the SEEING. As long as I try to "figure this out", it is only banging my head to wall, and uneasiness arises...

Yes, it cannot happen on the level of thoughts, and it’s good to notice this.

Is there an expectation to not identifying with thoughts and stories anymore?
How liberation should look like or feel like?
What expectations are there about liberation?
What is missing?
Is there anything that is missing or just thoughts suggest this?
Please list ALL expectations about liberation, even the subtle ones, and we can go through them together.

What is an expectation? Expectation is a mental concept. In order to compare it with the current experience, the current experience needs to be conceptualized. As a result, there ‘are’ two mentally fabricated constructs that can be matched up, with a ‘result’ of putting a label of either “this is liberation” or “this is not”.

After seeing through the illusion of the self, being lost in the content of a thought and identification with the I-thought still happen. Because, being lost in the content of a thought, and the identification with the I-thought is nothing more than conditioning, they are only conditioned habits. And just because seeing through the illusion of the ‘me’ has happened does not mean that XX years of conditioning will go away at once. Habits of a lifetime have been there for thoughts to pop up and suggest an illusory reality and an illusory self. And just because it has been noticed of late that 'self' is a mirage, would being lost in thoughts just stop?

Like, when you go to a cinema, being lost in the story happens with the identification of the character on the screen. But sooner or later there is a sudden ‘awakening’ with the realisation that this is just a story and the characters on the screen are not real. But in the next moment or so, being lost in the story can happen again and again.

But every time ‘you’ check what is this ‘me’, where is it, it is clearly seen that it has never been, except as the content of a thought.

But still can't see ALL the way THROUGH...

Is it possible that this is just another thought?

Love, Vivien

[Sayah]

Hello Vivien!

But does this mean that there is a desire or an expectation not being lost in the content of a thought?
Or not having an emotional response?
What desires it?
Is there a ‘me’ that wants to be free from thoughts, or this is just another thought?

Yes, there really is desire and expectations of that and also not haveing a emotional response. "I" know they are all thoughts, that there is not REAL "me", who wants to be free, but still.. get in to those thoughts, that "when I'm liberated" I won't get lost in content of thoughts nor haveing emotional responses.. and because I still do, then I get frustrated..and "I" don't wanna be frustrated, nervous, be afraid or what ever, because these feelings are simply ariseing because of believing the contents of thoughts. So "I" don't wanna get lost in there anymore.. but still do.

Is there an expectation to not identifying with thoughts and stories anymore?
How liberation should look like or feel like?
What expectations are there about liberation?
What is missing?
Is there anything that is missing or just thoughts suggest this?

Well, yes, there are so many expectations of liberation. And yes, the most big one is, that "i" won't be identifying thoughts anymore. And if I wouldn't', then life would be so much easier. Less moody, just calm and peace of mind :) Feeling Oneness and Love for all. I would be more kind, wise, secure, live fulfilled life, accepting everything as it is, feelings, thoughts, situations, people, everything.. I would have more success, have a wonderful job and respect, find the man of my life (oh my god, these sounds so ridiculous!) and if not, then that would be fine also. That I would be just fine all the time. (Hah). Because I see, that there are many negative thoughts rolling all the time.. and because I get lost in there, there are so much feelings of shame, unworthy, fear, etc.. and that blocks me in my life! So it is missing, that still do get lost the stories, fantasies, worries.. and don't wanna anymore!

And at the same time, I realize, nothing is missing, expect of the content of thought..and there is a big difference now than a week ago when we started! It's all so much more clear, not get caught so much with the stories.
and big insights!

Well, this day has been hectic, don't have much more to say now..

Thank you!!

Love, Sayah

[Vivien]

Dear Sayah,

Thank you for your honesty and the detailed list about the expectations.

This list is important, because every expectation is in a way of seeing what is here, right now. Every expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS. Please re-read my previous (yesterday’s) post about expectations. Expectations are about the future. But liberation cannot be found in the future.

I go through all the expectations one-by-one. While you read them, please pay attention to what arises in the body. Is there any resistance to any of it?

Yes, there really is desire and expectations of that and also not haveing a emotional response. "I" know they are all thoughts, that there is not REAL "me", who wants to be free, but still.. get in to those thoughts, that "when I'm liberated" I won't get lost in content of thoughts nor haveing emotional responses.. and because I still do, then I get frustrated..and "I" don't wanna be frustrated, nervous, be afraid or what ever, because these feelings are simply ariseing because of believing the contents of thoughts. So "I" don't wanna get lost in there anymore.. but still do.

So, you don’t want be a human anymore! It won’t happen. Being lost in thoughts and having emotional responses don’t stop with liberation! A ‘liberated’ human is still a human. Emotions are part of the human life. Even animals (that are ‘liberated’) also have emotional responses for certain stimuli.

Thoughts are lying! ‘You’ never get frustrated, nervous, or afraid. There is no ‘you’, there are only physical sensations labelled as ‘frustration’, ‘nervousness’ or ‘anger’.

the most big one is, that "i" won't be identifying thoughts anymore. And if I wouldn't', then life would be so much easier.

Never, ever? Then how would you take part in a conversation? In this moment while you are reading these lines, there is a subtle identification that ‘I, called Sayah’ read what ‘Vivien – the other, wrote to me’.

Life is already 'easy', only thoughts suggest otherwise.

Less moody, just calm and peace of mind :) Feeling Oneness and Love for all.

Feeling oneness all the time? Is it possible? If there was only oneness, then how could you cross the road without being hit by a car? If there was only oneness, then there wasn’t any separation between the car and the body, there weren’t any car, body or road, there was only a seamless experiencing.
Or, with hunger, how would you know which mouth to put the food if there was only oneness?

Experiencing oneness is a ‘spiritual experience’, a state, which has nothing to do with liberation. A state NEVER lasts. Everything is in a constant change. The experience of oneness can last from a few seconds to several days or weeks, but eventually it’ll go away. In oneness the organism cannot survive.

Liberation is not a state. Liberation is about seeing that there has never been a self that owns or governs life. This cannot come and go. This is not a state, it is a ‘fact’. Like when a child realises that Santa Clause has never existed. Can you believe in Santa Clause again after seeing that it has never been?

Is it possible to experience only love? What is love?
Love is non-resistance. Love is acceptance. Love is peace with what is in this moment, whatever is.

I would be more kind, wise, secure, live fulfilled life, accepting everything as it is, feelings, thoughts, situations, people, everything..

So in one part there is an expectation feeling only love and having no thoughts (or not identifying with thoughts) at all, but at the same time there is another expectation for accepting all feelings and all thoughts. Thoughts after thoughts, contradicting each other.

While there is a desire for kindness, there is a belief in a not-good-enough self. Where is this self?
If there is desire for being wise, it means that there is a belief in an unwise self. Is there really an unwise self, or these are just appearing conditioned thoughts?
What is security? Does security or non-security exist at all?

What is a fulfilling life? Isn’t it just a mental concept with random attributes that needs to be met in order to put the label “it is a fulfilling life” onto what is happening here and now?
Does life have a meaning or just thoughts suggest this?

I would have more success, have a wonderful job and respect, find the man of my life (oh my god, these sounds so ridiculous!) and if not, then that would be fine also.

Life doesn’t change with liberation. Only ‘your’ perception change. These expectations are all about the future. The future does not exist. While chasing fantasies, the wonder of this moment is missed. Liberation cannot be found in the future. It is here and now.

That I would be just fine all the time.

If there is no resistance to what is, then everything is just fine.

Because I see, that there are many negative thoughts rolling all the time..

Come on Sayah, you’ve already seen this. Thoughts don’t have attributes, they cannot be good or bad. Not the so called negative thoughts are the ‘problem’. The ‘problem’ is stem from the resistance to these thoughts. Liberation is about accepting whatever arises in this moment, regardless whether it’s labelled as bad or good. The emphasis is on resistance or non-resistance to what is.

and because I get lost in there, there are so much feelings of shame, unworthy, fear, etc.. and that blocks me in my life!

What is this ‘me’ that is got lost in thoughts?
What is this ‘me’ that is blocked and have a life?
Can a thought be blocked?

What is shame?
Is there a feeling of shame, or shame is just a mental label, and when it is believed there is an associated physical response in the body (like contraction)?

Examine the belief in shame in general.
Shame is a belief. What is a belief?

There is a list about what is regarded as shameful. But are these facts?
Are social norms are facts?
Are they real? Do they really exist?

So it is missing, that still do get lost the stories, fantasies, worries.. and don't wanna anymore!

Being lost in stories is just a CONDITIONING. It won’t go away at once. And some stories are useful (like being careful when you cross a road) or (not putting your hand into the fire).

Here is a very interesting 17 min video about this conditioning from the scientific perspective.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8l2nvTv9_Xw

And at the same time, I realize, nothing is missing, expect of the content of thought..and there is a big difference now than a week ago when we started! It's all so much more clear, not get caught so much with the stories.
and big insights!

Yes, with time being lost in stories lessens. But the ‘problem’ is not about being or not being lost in them, it is about the resistance when it happens.

Please re-read carefully both this and my yesterday’s post about expectation and identification and please report what comes up.

Love, Vivien

[Sayah]

Hey Vivien!

I wrote yesterday honestly EVERY thought that I have about what expectations I have of liberation. There is understanding, that they are only concept of thoughts. But I wanted to put them all out, so I could see how ridiculous they are, and have nothing to do with reality. That I could see, how crazy fantasies the mind can make up. Sometimes I believe them, often not. But had to put it here, to see the illusion. Thank you for your response. I really understand that liberation cannot happen in the future, of course.

When I read your post, often the reaction was laughter. :) Because you told things, that are so obvious. So there were no resistance at all.

Thoughts are lying! ‘You’ never get frustrated, nervous, or afraid. There is no ‘you’, there are only physical sensations labelled as ‘frustration’, ‘nervousness’ or ‘anger’.

Thank you for reminding me :)

Feeling oneness all the time? Is it possible? If there was only oneness, then how could you cross the road without being hit by a car? If there was only oneness, then there wasn’t any separation between the car and the body, there weren’t any car, body or road, there was only a seamless experiencing.
Or, with hunger, how would you know which mouth to put the food if there was only oneness?

Heh! Well, yes realized that have stuck up this memory of mine, that happend years ago. Meditated a lot, and then, boom!, had this "oneness experience", that lasted like a week. It was totally beautiful and amazeing experience, and in THAT state of mind, I just saw "myself" in everybody. Felt enourmos Love for everything! Cried my eyes off every day, cos first time I saw the world; it's colours, sounds, people AS they are, everything.. and the mental narrative still was going on, but didn't get lost in there AT ALL. So, because I have had this experience, I kinda mix it to this. That it would be the same. Of course it's not. That is just a memory, it doesn't exist anymore at this moment. but realized, it's the hindurance...

Is it possible to experience only love? What is love?

Oh wow, you said it! Love is accepting everything as it is!! That is just beautiful! Yes, I think Love is. You can't really "feel it", loose it, own it, or whatever.. It's there all the time. In every moment. That phrase just opened something in me.. wow. That is absolutely true!

While there is a desire for kindness, there is a belief in a not-good-enough self. Where is this self?
If there is desire for being wise, it means that there is a belief in an unwise self. Is there really an unwise self, or these are just appearing conditioned thoughts?
What is security? Does security or non-security exist at all?

Yes, all just thoughts!! See it now very clearly! Ugh, got really caught up these stories in my head again yesterday.. Yes, they ALL are just thoughts!!!! Security is just an idea, a illusion of a separate self, who "is secure or less secure". There isn't such thing. Not separate self, so can't be security either.

What is a fulfilling life? Isn’t it just a mental concept with random attributes that needs to be met in order to put the label “it is a fulfilling life” onto what is happening here and now?
Does life have a meaning or just thoughts suggest this?

Yes it all thoughts!! And caused by this "I" -thought, some kind of separated of life. Hah. There is only Life. It's happening, as it is. But this "I" -thought have this quality of "controlling life". There is no control. Meaning of life is also a thought of course. Life is as it is, and mind wants label everything that happens. Simple as that. Mind just labels.

Come on Sayah, you’ve already seen this. Thoughts don’t have attributes, they cannot be good or bad. Not the so called negative thoughts are the ‘problem’. The ‘problem’ is stem from the resistance to these thoughts. Liberation is about accepting whatever arises in this moment, regardless whether it’s labelled as bad or good. The emphasis is on resistance or non-resistance to what is.

Thank you for the great reminding AGAIN. Of course it is like that. It really is the resistance of what is, that "cause the pain". Accepting, accepting, accepting..... that is the answer for everything. :)

What is this ‘me’ that is got lost in thoughts?
What is this ‘me’ that is blocked and have a life?
Can a thought be blocked?

Yes, there is not me. It's a thought. A block and even a life, they are just thoughts. Can you even understand Life in thoughts.. cos they are just thoughts. A conditioned mind.. can it ever understand? I think the great insights of Life comes beyond conditioned mind.

Examine the belief in shame in general.
Shame is a belief. What is a belief?

There is a list about what is regarded as shameful. But are these facts?
Are social norms are facts?
Are they real? Do they really exist?

Belief is a concept of thought by conditioned mind. It has grown by this culture, society, family and friends.. and then there is this shame, that has a lot doing with religion, Christianity (in my country). It's roots are in the bible... and from generation after generation, it has grown in this mind of mine, that different kinda things are "shameful". They are just stories. All norms are just stories too. Suddenly they become "true", and you act in a certain way in certain situations. It's all caused by this conditioned mind. You become like a automatic robot, who don't really SEE, what is HERE and NOW. You see only forms and norms... I guess that's why this is called "awakeing", cos then you SEE reality, instead of listening stories of reality from others or by your conditioned mind. Of course there are still labelling happening, but there won't be that much getting lost in there.

Yes, I see, that nothing really changes, after you see the illusion of a separate self, only the perspective changes. It hasn't happend "all the way" in me.. I guess it has "a little bit". Or I don't even know, has it already happen? How do you know it?

Love, Sayah

[Vivien]

Dear Sayah,

When I read your post, often the reaction was laughter. :) Because you told things, that are so obvious. So there were no resistance at all.

Wonderful :) Laughter is a sign that thoughts are not taken seriously.

Heh! Well, yes realized that have stuck up this memory of mine, that happend years ago. Meditated a lot, and then, boom!, had this "oneness experience", that lasted like a week. It was totally beautiful and amazeing experience..
... and the mental narrative still was going on, but didn't get lost in there AT ALL.

So then, this is the root of the expectation that being lost in thoughts (or identifying with thoughts) would never happen after ‘liberation’… Can you see that this is an improbable expectation?

Oh wow, you said it! Love is accepting everything as it is!!

Love = acceptance
Not accepting, but acceptance. Because acceptance is not an effort. Acceptance is not a doing. Acceptance is doing nothing. (accepting implies some kind of effort)

It really is the resistance of what is, that "cause the pain". Accepting, accepting, accepting..... that is the answer for everything. :)

What is resistance or non-acceptance?
Does resistance or non-acceptance exist in ‘reality’?
Can anything be resisted or not-accepted in ‘reality’?
Does anything that is already happening now need acceptance to BE?
Can acceptance or non-acceptance change WHAT IS ALREADY IS?

Everything that shows up has ALREADY been accepted at the deepest and the most fundamental level — or it wouldn't have shown up!

Acceptance is non-doing.

Belief is a concept of thought by conditioned mind.

Yes, a belief is an unexamined thought that is taken to be real.

It's all caused by this conditioned mind.

What is a conditioned mind?
Where is it in direct experience?

Yes, I see, that nothing really changes, after you see the illusion of a separate self, only the perspective changes. It hasn't happend "all the way" in me.. I guess it has "a little bit". Or I don't even know, has it already happen? How do you know it?

Exactly. Seeing through the illusion of the self is a shift in perception. Everything is the same and yet everything ‘looks’ differently.

It is seeing that there has never been a self or me that would control, govern or own anything.

It is VERY SIMPLE. Much-much simpler than thoughts suggest it.

You wrote that you listed ALL the expectations and ‘you’ have seen that ALL of them are just stories.
Then what is missing?
Is there still a seeking going on?
Is there a seeker hidden somewhere that wants more?
Or seeking is just a conditioned habit?

Love, Vivien

[Sayah]

Hey dear Vivien!

Can you see that this is an improbable expectation?

Yes, I can clearly see it now :) Also another experience happend a week before we started this process. It lasted like 15 minutes, but was significant. Just came from my balcony, went for a cigarette, and when comeing out, it happend. Like "I" watched myself beside "me". Like watching this person Sayah moveing, thinking, what ever and saw thoughts as a grazy talk, that had NOTHING to do with real Sayah, that my mind was like a machine rolling all kind of text. The thoughts looked like a monkey's talk! I laughed soooo much!!!!!! For 15 minutes I just laughed, cos I "saw" sooooo clearly how out of the space this mental narrative is! So this experience is also a hindrance.. because "I" don't feel that way now.. :)

What is resistance or non-acceptance?
Does resistance or non-acceptance exist in ‘reality’?
Can anything be resisted or not-accepted in ‘reality’?
Does anything that is already happening now need acceptance to BE?
Can acceptance or non-acceptance change WHAT IS ALREADY IS?

Hah, again I'm laughing! It's all so obvious! Resistance and non-acceptance exists only in the level of thoughts. They have nothing to do with reality. It's ALWAYS just thoughts! The last question made me really laugh :):) It's like you are asking "are you a human being or a monkey?" It is so obvious! Yeah, all these are very simple now. And the answer is of course not.

What is a conditioned mind?
Where is it in direct experience?

Well if thinking of it in direct experience, it doesn't even exist. It's just a label, a belief. And actually it's kinda strong belief, that "my mind is conditioned", can now see it quite clearly. It's only another thought.

Then what is missing?
Is there still a seeking going on?
Is there a seeker hidden somewhere that wants more?
Or seeking is just a conditioned habit?

Yeah, thought today about this process.. that it is "hard to believe" that is it?! noticed that there were punch of hindurance on the way.. these expectations taking seriously.

Well, things have changed that's for sure. I don't have words for everything, but "i feel" different these days. So much more light, and all I can think of is that "I" don't take so seriously my thoughts anymore. It is just crazy to notice that I have really been listening my thoughts as facts for years and years! WTF?! Right now, it just seems crazy.. Feeling that everything's gonna change from now on, because this HUGE lie is starting to loose it's grip. And it REALLY feels crazy...

Of course nothing is missing. It's also grazy to realize that there is nothing to seek! Hah! That actually "seeking" is kinda hindurance in what IS.

Yep, seeking is a habit.
The mind wants to make these stories about seeking and about this seeker...but LOOKING at it; they are ALSO just thoughts!

Is this it?! :):)

LOVE, Sayah

[Vivien]

Dear Sayah,

Like watching this person Sayah moveing, thinking, what ever and saw thoughts as a grazy talk, that had NOTHING to do with real Sayah

Is there a real Sayah and a non-real Sayah?
What is real Sayah?
What makes it real?
Can Sayah be real in any form or shape?

So this experience is also a hindrance.. because "I" don't feel that way now.. :)

It is hindrance as long as it is believed that this past experience was/is ‘liberation’ so I should experience it constantly. But when it is seen that this is just a memory (thoughts) about a past experience than it is not a ‘hindrance’ ‘any more’. It is just a STORY.

Mind: it doesn't even exist. It's just a label, a belief. And actually it's kinda strong belief, that "my mind is conditioned", can now see it quite clearly. It's only another thought.

Yes, ‘mind’ or ‘conditioned mind’ is just a story. It may be a useful story but still it is just a story.

Yeah, thought today about this process.. that it is "hard to believe" that is it?! noticed that there were punch of hindurance on the way.. these expectations taking seriously.

Yes, it is ‘hard to believe’ because this is not something to believe in. This is not about believing, this is about SEEING. And yet, doubts may come up.

But what is a doubt?
Can ever be a doubt be ‘true’ or ‘real’?
Is it possible that doubts like ‘it is hard to believe’ is just another thought?

Feeling that everything's gonna change from now on, because this HUGE lie is starting to loose it's grip. And it REALLY feels crazy...

Where does it felt crazy?
How crazy-ness experienced in DE?
Can crazy-ness be felt or it is just a content of a thought with a word ‘feeling’ in it?

There are some thoughts that suggest some ‘feelings’, like “feeling crazy”, “feeling stupid”, “I feel that you don’t listen to me”, “I feel frustration”, "feeling that everything is gonna change". But actually, these things cannot be felt. Frustration cannot be felt, because frustration happens only on the level of thinking, although when it is believed the result can be a contraction in the body. But the contraction in the body is not frustration. Same with ‘stupid’ or the ‘feeling the lack of your love’…

Of course nothing is missing. It's also grazy to realize that there is nothing to seek! Hah! That actually "seeking" is kinda hindurance in what IS.

Can seeking be a hindrance in what IS?
If there is a seeking, it is ALREADY IS.
How could it be a hindrance if it is ALREADY part of what is?

Is this it?! :):)

Is this a question or a statement?

Once noticing of experience occurs, the actual experience is already in the past. Is this true?
No matter what ‘I’ feel like - This is IT! Is this true?
No matter what ‘I’ want to feel like - This is IT! Is this true?
No matter what ‘I’ think - This is IT! Is this true?
No matter what has happened in the past - This is IT! Is this true?
No matter whether there is seeking or not – This is IT! Is this true?
No matter anything - This is IT! Is this true?

WHATEVER it is – This is it.
There is NO possible way of changing it, as it is already past the moment it is thought about.
Thinking, wanting, nothing cannot change it, because it is already done and dusted. Finished.

So, my final question is:
Has it been clearly seen that there has never been a separate self or not?

Love, Vivien

[Sayah]

Hi Vivien!

First of all, I couldn't answer to you yesterday at all. Too hectic, long day at work, and too many big questions from you (to answer when in hurry and tired). Hope you are still with me. :) But it was interesting what happend yesterday after reading your mail. Huge emotions arised! Like grazy frustration and anger! Such resistance for everything you said, for this process, for you.. hah. Well, maybe it's better that I didn't answer yesterday.. :)

Of course emotions were labelled by mind "anger, frustration etc." First these thoughts " This is shit" " I don't get it".. and of course sensations arised immedietly. But first time it was really heavy. Noticed that, this process, everything you say kinda tears everything apart. Like what ever "I" think or "feel" or whatever, it never is, what it seems to be, because it's ALWAYS just thoughts about what is going on.. I don't know how to explain this better.. This process gives no mercy. "You" can't go where the "fence is lowest".

I really have no idea, have "I" seen the illusion of separate self. Right now, a little bit confused of everything. But had great insight today at work. I was really tired and not feeling social at all. And I just noticed, that "I don't HAVE to be social or ANYTHING". I don't have to be ANYTHING. There were these thoughts " what people think, when I'm just silent etc." And suddenly also accepting those thoughts too! Like "my" thoughts are silly, negative, selfish and stupid", but "I" can't change them. So why feel quilty of them? Propably most people's thoughts are negative and silly! Damn, have read too many buddhist -books, so created this "ideal human beeing" how "I should think, behave, or speak". This fucking good-hearted, wise, humble, all loveing, all careing, unselfish, big smile all the time in the face -person. Fuck! That is so fucked up! I'm not like that, or actually "I" am not ANYTHING!
It feels so great to say this out loud! :) :) I DON*T HAVE TO BE ANYTHING. Well, this is a thought. Another thought. A dialogue in "my" head. And yes yes, have nothing to do with REALITY, at this moment. Just speculation about reality.

Is there a real Sayah and a non-real Sayah?
What is real Sayah?
What makes it real?
Can Sayah be real in any form or shape?

No there is no real or non-real Sayah. There is this human, with 5 senses to sense the world. Then there are thoughts, that run this same movie, where there is this Sayah, with personality and past, and dreams and fears. That is not real. It feels like it, I mean, the thoughts are believed still, so emotions arise all the time, because of that, but the movie starring this Sayah, isn't real. You can't "sense" the real Sayah, cos there is none. In DE, there isn't real or non-real.

But what is a doubt?
Can ever be a doubt be ‘true’ or ‘real’?
Is it possible that doubts like ‘it is hard to believe’ is just another thought?

If there is a doubt, there must be a "thing" to have doubts ABOUT. That "thing" whatever it is, is created in thoughts, and is not real. It's just a thought. If there is a doubt in jungle "to not go to that direction", then there may be some sensations in the body, that mind labels "doubt". Or "I don't know whether this relationship is gonna work", or "maybe I shouldn't go to that trip". Doubt's have a lot to do with fears and expectations. And none of those are real in DE.

Where does it felt crazy?
How crazy-ness experienced in DE?
Can crazy-ness be felt or it is just a content of a thought with a word ‘feeling’ in it?

Yes, especially this question was giving me a LOT of anger. HAH. That suddenly nothing is real.
That usually there is nothing under, when you LOOK at it. Yes, this crazy-ness is only happening "in the head". It was only a thought. A lot of thoughts believed. And that's fine; Felt that way, because got lost in the stories, and that's fine. There is nothing wrong with that. This is again, what I have realized today. EVERYTHING is fine, what ever thoughts or feelings may come. There is no need to feel quilty of ANYTHING= believe thoughts of quiltyness. There obviously isn't a "feeling of quilty". It's happening in mind.

Can seeking be a hindrance in what IS?
If there is a seeking, it is ALREADY IS.
How could it be a hindrance if it is ALREADY part of what is?

Hah. You got that right! I don't have anything to add to that. That is just absolutely right. So everything is what it is. Only resistance in what ever there IS (thoughts, emotions...) in every moment, makes person "suffer". So simple, so hard to accomplish. Well actually, that too is just another thought to believed. In reality, in DE, there is nothing to accomplish. There is NOTHING wrong at this moment, not in ANY moment.

Once noticing of experience occurs, the actual experience is already in the past. Is this true?
No matter what ‘I’ feel like - This is IT! Is this true?
No matter what ‘I’ want to feel like - This is IT! Is this true?
No matter what ‘I’ think - This is IT! Is this true?
No matter what has happened in the past - This is IT! Is this true?
No matter whether there is seeking or not – This is IT! Is this true?
No matter anything - This is IT! Is this true?

YES! It all is true! Again, wonderful reminding; Reality is neutral. :):) Only in thoughts happens "judging about situations, feelings, actions, thoughts itself!" . What the hell? So the mind (content of thoughts) just creates this whole "own world", that has nothing to do with reality. Thought after thought...

Has it been clearly seen that there has never been a separate self or not?

Well... had a few strong experiences of that in DE, and in that strong dream, I had first night we started this. I understand that, but I think mostly logically.

Something is happening for sure, all the time. I don't know what...

But feels like"I" haven't seen that truth clearly. Not yet... I mean VERY clearly. Maybe a little bit..

Thank You!!!!

Love, Sayah

[Vivien]

Dear Sayah,

Hope you are still with me. :)

Yes, I’m with you, and I will be as long it is needed. :)
Once it is obvious that seeing the illusion of the self has happened, our conversation in this thread will come to an end, however you won’t be left alone. There is a whole community of others on FB, who have also seen through the ‘self’. Actually, there are several groups to join. Furthermore, if you like, we can continue our conversation in another thread or on FB.

Huge emotions arised! Like grazy frustration and anger! Such resistance for everything you said, for this process, for you.. hah.

Thank you for your honesty.
Frustration and anger are the result of conflicts between beliefs about liberation or even the ‘whole world’ in general and the current experiencing. The current experiencing doesn’t match the beliefs. That’s all. Nothing ‘serious’, however it can SEEM serious.

But first time it was really heavy. Noticed that, this process, everything you say kinda tears everything apart. Like what ever "I" think or "feel" or whatever, it never is, what it seems to be, because it's ALWAYS just thoughts about what is going on.. I don't know how to explain this better.. This process gives no mercy.

Look, this whole process of ‘liberation’ is not a one-time, big event. ‘Liberation’ starts with the realization of no-self. This is the first step, however the most important one. After seeing the illusion, other beliefs start to crumble. As you say: “everything you say kinda tears everything apart”. But not ‘my’ words doing it, but it is the result of SEEing. Seeing what is real, and what is not. And eventually, we come to the realization that everything we believed ‘ourselves’ or the ‘world’ to be, is not what we thought/believed. As a result, the xx years of conditioned thoughts, behaviours and reactions start to gradually fall away. However, this falling can last until the end of the organism.

And I just noticed, that "I don't HAVE to be social or ANYTHING". I don't have to be ANYTHING. There were these thoughts " what people think, when I'm just silent etc." And suddenly also accepting those thoughts too! Like "my" thoughts are silly, negative, selfish and stupid", but "I" can't change them. So why feel quilty of them?

Yes, exactly. You don’t have to be anything. Because ‘you’ are NOT.

“Silly, negative, stupid, selfish” – these are labels on previous thoughts. Is this true?
“I should feel guilty because of them” – is another label, right?
Does a thought have any power what so ever on what is?

Damn, have read too many buddhist -books, so created this "ideal human beeing" how "I should think, behave, or speak". This fucking good-hearted, wise, humble, all loveing, all careing, unselfish, big smile all the time in the face -person. Fuck! That is so fucked up! I'm not like that, or actually "I" am not ANYTHING!

Exactly :)
‘My’ assumption is that a mental construct of ‘liberation’ has emerged from these beliefs. So, there is a TEMPLATE with a long list of characteristics how ‘liberation’ should look like. When the current experiencing is conceptualized and compared with this template, the result is that “This is NOT liberation”. All the boxes need to be ticked in order to the ‘liberated’ label being sticked onto the experience.

I suggest ‘you’ to revise all these characteristics and see whether they are really ‘true’ and ‘necessary’. Please, let me know how it goes.

I DON*T HAVE TO BE ANYTHING. Well, this is a thought. Another thought. A dialogue in "my" head. And yes yes, have nothing to do with REALITY, at this moment. Just speculation about reality.

Yes, ‘you’ don’t have to. But even if ‘you’ wanted to, ‘you’ CANNOT! Nothing cannot be something.

Thoughts and speculations about ‘reality’ won’t stop either. The only difference is when it is checked in DE that it is clearly seen what is real and what is not.

No there is no real or non-real Sayah. There is this human, with 5 senses to sense the world. Then there are thoughts, that run this same movie, where there is this Sayah, with personality and past, and dreams and fears. That is not real. It feels like it, I mean, the thoughts are believed still, so emotions arise all the time, because of that, but the movie starring this Sayah, isn't real. You can't "sense" the real Sayah, cos there is none. In DE, there isn't real or non-real.

Is there an expectation that ‘you’ have to always be able to directly see what is real and what is not, and not being part of the ‘movie’?
Is there a wish to stepping outside of the ‘movie’?
Is it possible to step out of the ‘movie’?
Is there anything outside of the ‘movie’?

When it is seen that this is just a ‘movie’ with the main character Sayah, then the movie can become a real entertainment.

Doubt's have a lot to do with fears and expectations. And none of those are real in DE.

Yes. Doubt is the result of conflicting beliefs. Doubting thoughts are just like any other thoughts. Just simple thoughts appearing now. And thoughts are as important as the background noise of the fridge.

Yes, especially this question was giving me a LOT of anger. HAH. That suddenly nothing is real.
That usually there is nothing under, when you LOOK at it. Yes, this crazy-ness is only happening "in the head". It was only a thought. A lot of thoughts believed. And that's fine; Felt that way, because got lost in the stories, and that's fine. There is nothing wrong with that. This is again, what I have realized today. EVERYTHING is fine, what ever thoughts or feelings may come. There is no need to feel quilty of ANYTHING= believe thoughts of quiltyness. There obviously isn't a "feeling of quilty". It's happening in mind.

If you see it from a different perspective, this is freedom. Everything is allowed. Everything is already accepted (regardless of thoughts suggesting otherwise). So, there are endless possibilities. This is FREEDOM…

There is NOTHING wrong at this moment, not in ANY moment.

Wonderful. :) Then what is the problem? :) What is missing?

Reality is neutral. :):) Only in thoughts happens "judging about situations, feelings, actions, thoughts itself!" . What the hell? So the mind (content of thoughts) just creates this whole "own world", that has nothing to do with reality. Thought after thought...

Yes, reality is always neutral. And yes, there isn’t an objective world ‘out there’. I am the world. The whole world is ‘my’ projection. There are as many worlds as humans on the planet.

Well... had a few strong experiences of that in DE, and in that strong dream, I had first night we started this. I understand that, but I think mostly logically.

Yes, ‘you’ THINK it is mostly logical.
This is a thought.
And what is seen in DE?

But feels like"I" haven't seen that truth clearly. Not yet... I mean VERY clearly. Maybe a little bit..

How does it felt like?
How it is experienced?
Can this be felt or is this just another thought?
What needs to happen in order to the thought label being put onto the experiences “The truth is VERY clearly seen”?

Love, Vivien