New Member - Wanting a Guide

[annaaiyar]

Hello d,

are you there?

[deezer]

Hi Anusha,

I hope you are well. We covered quite a lot in a whirlwind fashion yesterday. I have had a read through it all again and it seems to me that you have already seen through the illusion of a separate self.

What do you think? Tell me where you feel you are at

I have some questions for you just in case there is anything hidden.

As always, in direct experience:

Have you been able to find, a ‘self’ that is the ‘experiencer’?

Or a self that is the doer, or can control what happens?

Or a self that ‘makes’ decisions?

Or a self who ‘does the thinking’?

Is the "body" just another thought label for physical sensations?

Are the five body senses made to arise or experienced by this ‘self’?

Is there a self ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’?

Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?

And finally:

Are there any doubts about seeing through the illusion of separate self?

Depending on work today I may not be able post as often as yesterday. But if you don't hear from me then continue with the questions throughout the day.

Thanks,

d

[annaaiyar]

Hello d,

Thank you for all your help. Greatly appreciate it. :)

What do you think? Tell me where you feel you are at

Through DE... a thought comes "any stage i am thinking i am in is false", now another thought comes "thinking (any stage i am thinking i am in is false) this is also another thought, false", deep down awareness of these thoughts... going in circles... silently watching ..but that deep knowing is there... hard to put into words :) sorry...

As always, in direct experience:

:) totally

Have you been able to find, a ‘self’ that is the ‘experiencer’? Or a self that is the doer, or can control what happens? Or a self that ‘makes’ decisions? Or a self who ‘does the thinking’?

NO 100% it is a deep knowing...

but I question this DEEP KNOWING too :)

Is the "body" just another thought label for physical sensations?, Are the five body senses made to arise or experienced by this ‘self’?

this will need to be answered in DE more will answer later :)

Is there a self ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’? Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?

in DE the answer would be "don't know", or "who knows"... :)

separate self?

NO, but my question about this firmness of "NO".... ??? HOW DID "IT" KNOW??

Dear d, can you help me to clarify this? or anyone in this forum it's great help...

Bless with mettha
Anusha

[deezer]

Hi Anusha,

I am more than happy to help you clarify. We looked at your expectations. There is idea that seeing through the illusion of self will result in silence. I take this to mean no thoughts. This is an expectation which you have to put aside. In my personal experience I still continue to think, quite happily.

Through DE... a thought comes "any stage i am thinking i am in is false", now another thought comes "thinking (any stage i am thinking i am in is false) this is also another thought, false", deep down awareness of these thoughts... going in circles... silently watching ..but that deep knowing is there... hard to put into words :) sorry...

Let's look thinking and thoughts.
Think of a car. Describe the car to me. Why did that particular car come to mind and not another?

Is the car of your thoughts real? Is the experience of thinking of the car real?

Can you see any difference between the content of a thought and thinking?

Have you been able to find, a ‘self’ that is the ‘experiencer’? Or a self that is the doer, or can control what happens? Or a self that ‘makes’ decisions? Or a self who ‘does the thinking’?

NO 100% it is a deep knowing...

but I question this DEEP KNOWING too :)

Let me check that I understand. So there is no experiencer, or doer, no controller, no decider, no thinker... but instead there is a deep knowing.
Is that correct? Is the experience of deep knowing more real than any other experience'?

Is the "body" just another thought label for physical sensations?, Are the five body senses made to arise or experienced by this ‘self’?

this will need to be answered in DE more will answer later :)

As you sit on your chair try to locate the place where the chair ends and you body begins. It can help to close your eyes for this. Tell me what you find

Is there a self ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’? Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?

in DE the answer would be "don't know", or "who knows"... :)

No that wouldn't be the answer in DE :-)
Let's have a look.

When you look at something, a book, a tree outside or whatever, can you find an 'I' that is looking or seeing, or is there just seeing?

If there is an 'I', where are the boundaries between what is being seen, the seeing process itself and the seer?

Please do the same with hearing: birdsong, music, a pneumatic drill or whatever; and similarly with each of: tasting, tactile feelings and smelling.

separate self?

NO, but my question about this firmness of "NO".... ??? HOW DID "IT" KNOW??

I didn't understand this Anusha, Can you explain it a little more clearly?

I look forward to hearing your answers Anusha. Take you time and remember we are only looking at what you can see in your present experience. We don't want a story from the past or an expectation of the future.

d

[annaaiyar]

Hi D, Thank you for your early responses... :)

Let's look thinking and thoughts.
Think of a car. Describe the car to me. Why did that particular car come to mind and not another?

Is the car of your thoughts real? Is the experience of thinking of the car real?

Can you see any difference between the content of a thought and thinking?

in DE, immediately couldn't think... mind sort of blank... by force taking from the memory, ok red car coming .... that particular come came because "I" recalled from past memory by force, car is NOT real, it is just a dead thought... this "I" know through awareness. even the experience NO REAL, yes I can see the content of a thought and thinking :) 100% IT IS NOT REAL... fragmentation of the mind... of digging "past" memories/experiences

Let me check that I understand. So there is no experiencer, or doer, no controller, no decider, no thinker... but instead there is a deep knowing. Is that correct? Is the experience of deep knowing more real than any other experience'?

- No , when the mind goes outside in action this deep witness is not there or there don't know there is no "I" or "big I' or anything just ACTION happening at the MOMENT... but when the mind is directed inside the body, forcefully heartbeat... heartbeat is there... awareness of the heartbeat is there... wisdom knows that there is NO separate "I" driving this heart beat... but the actual heart beating is felt to this awareness.... but when the mind is OFF the heart beat, the mind is unaware whether the heart is beating or not... "what is this awareness" then... that which knows ?? this is what I mentioned earlier about the DEEP KNOWING ... just a word

Thank you

[deezer]

Hi Anusha,

Could you answer all the questions from my last post please?

Thank you,

d

[annaaiyar]

Hi d, oops sorry missed, here it goes...

As you sit on your chair try to locate the place where the chair ends and you body begins. It can help to close your eyes for this. Tell me what you find

just sitting one movement

When you look at something, a book, a tree outside or whatever, can you find an 'I' that is looking or seeing, or is there just seeing? If there is an 'I', where are the boundaries between what is being seen, the seeing process itself and the seer? Please do the same with hearing: birdsong, music, a pneumatic drill or whatever; and similarly with each of: tasting, tactile feelings and smelling.

just seeing only, touching, smelling, scratching, pain etc.

separate self? NO, but my question about this firmness of "NO".... ??? HOW DID "IT" KNOW??

I didn't understand this Anusha, Can you explain it a little more clearly?

when the action happens... example just seeing... one never knows whether the I exists or not..., I am using the word "I" to explain purpose only... when "I" look at a tree randomly.... cannot identify the tree, don't know whether it's seeing and certainly no watcher... at that frame one cannot say there is seeing either.. when the eyes are taken off the tree, then it's wiped totally and focus on the other object without any remains of the tree in the background... from tree the eyes goes to a cat... then at that point total focus only on the cat, but without any identification of a cat, watching, me all these.. just seeing...

thank you d,

[deezer]

Hi Anusha,

Thanks for going back over the missing questions.

when the eyes are taken off the tree, then it's wiped totally and focus on the other object without any remains of the tree in the background... from tree the eyes goes to a cat... then at that point total focus only on the cat

This is correct. And is getting down into the direct experience of the moment. However let's try to see what we can call 'real'.
If we look at something in direct experience and it stays there, within your experience, can we agree that it is real? So if you look at the tree and it doesn't dissappear can we say that it is there? As you sit on the chair and experience the sensation, it doesn't dissappear, you don't fall on the floor, so can you agree that it is real?

but without any identification of a cat, watching, me all these..

What is watching?

when "I" look at a tree randomly.... cannot identify the tree, don't know whether it's seeing and certainly no watcher... at that frame one cannot say there is seeing either.

Are your eyes open? If yes therefore are you not seeing?

in DE, immediately couldn't think... mind sort of blank... by force taking from the memory, ok red car coming .... that particular come came because "I" recalled from past memory by force, car is NOT real, it is just a dead thought... this "I" know through awareness. even the experience NO REAL, yes I can see the content of a thought and thinking :) 100% IT IS NOT REAL... fragmentation of the mind... of digging "past" memories/experiences

Again we need to see what is real for the purpose of this discussion. I want you to only look in your direct experience. Please leave everything you have learned before behind. It is getting in the way.

If you recall when you were a child. As you sit where you are can we agree that the memory of being a child isn't real, however the act of sitting there recalling being a child is real?

The same works if you are sitting thinking about what you will do tomorrow. Memories and projections are simply thoughts being experienced in the here and now. Do you agree?

Within DE can you find anything that is not being experienced right now that is real?

Within DE is what you are experiencing right now real?

- No , when the mind goes outside in action this deep witness is not there or there don't know there is no "I" or "big I' or anything just ACTION happening at the MOMENT... but when the mind is directed inside the body, forcefully heartbeat... heartbeat is there... awareness of the heartbeat is there... wisdom knows that there is NO separate "I" driving this heart beat... but the actual heart beating is felt to this awareness.... but when the mind is OFF the heart beat, the mind is unaware whether the heart is beating or not... "what is this awareness" then... that which knows ?? this is what I mentioned earlier about the DEEP KNOWING ... just a word

Tell me is there an awareness separate from what you are experiencing right now?

A lot of work in this Anusha. Keep up the good work. If you look at your table, science might say it's molecules and atoms, Buddhism may say it inherently empty, but for the purpose of this discussion you experience it so it is real.

I look forward to hearing from you,

d

[annaaiyar]

Hi d,

If we look at something in direct experience and it stays there, within your experience, can we agree that it is real? So if you look at the tree and it doesn't dissappear can we say that it is there? As you sit on the chair and experience the sensation, it doesn't dissappear, you don't fall on the floor, so can you agree that it is real?

I know this might sound weird. But it is only the seeing there.. no identification

What is watching?

no one, only seeing

Are your eyes open? If yes therefore are you not seeing?

yes seeing is there but no identification which happens straightaway.. tried many times to explain over my earlier posts :) sorry if it was not clear, this is the best way I could explain. the experience just happens no experiencer...

Again we need to see what is real for the purpose of this discussion. I want you to only look in your direct experience. Please leave everything you have learned before behind. It is getting in the way.

yes all what I have said is in DE, not what I have learned.. all that is learned is simply dead memories... :)

Within DE can you find anything that is not being experienced right now that is real? Within DE is what you are experiencing right now real?

yes

Tell me is there an awareness separate from what you are experiencing right now?

again i am trying to explain this many a times :) before .... if in action ,,,, all is just one unitary movement no separate awareness or separate self or object and subject... all ACTION.... in that moment fully unaware of anything that which surrounds... but when in no action like sitting on a chair and can hear sounds, only hearing... sounds, more sounds dig dog... walking sound no hearer... just awareness of that hearing... no person hearing it... just sound... this is in DE and not in some distant learned memory recalling... :)

Many thanks
Anusha

[deezer]

Hi Anusha,

Thank you for taking the time to explain again (and again).

Within DE can you find anything that is not being experienced right now that is real? Within DE is what you are experiencing right now real?

yes

There are two questions here, please answer these again:

Within DE can you find anything that is not being experienced right now that is real?

Within DE is what you are experiencing right now real?

Thanks,

d

[annaaiyar]

Hi d,

There are two questions here, please answer these again:

1.Within DE can you find anything that is not being experienced right now that is real?

2 Within DE is what you are experiencing right now real?

1. what is NOT being experienced right now is not real.. :)

2. yes hearing, seeing is there... and real
Many thanks
Anusha

[deezer]

Hi Anusha,

2 Within DE is what you are experiencing right now real?

2. yes hearing, seeing is there... and real

Is the experience of thinking real?

Thanks,

d

[annaaiyar]

Hi d

Is the experience of thinking real?

no

Thanks
Anusha

[deezer]

Hi Anusha,

As you sit infront of the computer. Just stop what you are doing. Sit and relax. Don't force anything to come to mind. Just relax. Don't enter into any 'meditation' or no-thought state. Just relax.

List for me the next 10 thoughts that arise in your mind. Just notice them. You don't have to follow them. And describe them for me please.

Thanks,

d

[annaaiyar]

Hi d,

ok,,, how long ? 1 minute? time is in front of me on the PC :)


tv sound
footsteps
cough sound
plate rattling
doctors appointment to take my daughter now time 3.07pm, apt. 3.30pm

:)
Thanks
Anusha