Seeking guiding

[Annja]

Hi Pete

A bit more:

Reflection: learning that there is no decisions to be made, such a small part of all the conditions arising be strange to imagine can influence with a decision..that there is any control of this unfolding display ...only participation.Fascinating to look in my experience for if I can make a decision about something in the future, then distracted and already doing it...hmm some decider there eh!..

Reflection: And in the infinitessimal moment there is no choice, just opening and responding, and yet in this timelessness there is all choice ..every door of possibility is open as not tried to predecide or control the way, the baby rolling out of its centre alighting eyes on something and of it goes, surrender...hmm...kind of starting to get this need to explore my experience more, remembering times when this was so like on a bus too full with two elderly people a voice spoke 'they can have our seats we sit in the stairwell' no choice no chooser just acting.. a heart space no seperation no'i' in that voice phrase, aliveness in this, ripples communications with 'you', 'others'


What I hope for from this process - some thinking stuff here that kind of rippled on:
so no chooser no choice and all possibilities ..no freedom, no restriction no causations of reactions, no suffering no causes of suffering no cessation of suffering no path...no deed no doer, just empty phenomena roll on just this heart space empty and yet full where all essence is all experience is...like in the baked potato moment. nosamsarering no nirvanering...just this..heart space, aliveness in this, ripples communications with 'you', 'others'

Any way when completely in the moment of direct experience of the five senses baked potato smells or suround sound, there is no sticky thinking assumptions beliefs dispositions, worries plans, (6th sense), Reflections: For me this is when 'I' like , am open to something like baked potato smell, when neutral e.g. seeing a mop or chemical smell, I contract close seperate..so the 'i' becomes solid and the thinking starts,

so in the display of empty phenomena smells, colours light shadow rumble sound touch, soft, then a sound 'i' dont like 'I' seperate solid contract, catch the vedana and open to the unpleasant not react and back into the flow.

Reflection: sometimes when just sitting the background display of thoughts roll on not grasping catching me delightful round cheese fields fluttering thoughts, sounds, smell, colour, light, warmth, so at peace within them the mind in creative glory,

Please keep me going through the exercises....its like things opening experiencing things read or experienced in meditations in daily life through these..still so tentative and occasional though....like a knowing of the reflections above coming through this direct experiencing exercises, but need to use words to explain it to you....

Gemma

[moondog]

Hi Gemma,

Yes you have hit the nail on the head, when I am in more formal sitting or moving meditation or reflecting the 'I' seems not there and the thoughts sometimes catch me in other times arise and pass .. in the rest of life its more intellectual the 'self' keeps popping up. Strange last night talking to my partner...as though just come of a weeks silent retreat... kind of scary...ok though. Then this morning in the hole the drama over something that did not matter at all...caught in the thoughts and the story again.... took several hours to get out.

Yeah, as my question- Can you find a 'you', a separate self anywhere apart from in thinking? If so, please describe what you see- implies, there's really no 'I' anywhere, except as an idea in thinking. Which isn't really anywhere at all is it? Just look again in direct experience to see if such a self-entity can be found. Really have a rummage around and then let me have a your answer to that question

I enjoyed reading your observations and comments on 'your' direct experience of sense arisings and boundaries. They are both lyrical and detailed, and I appreciate the thoroughness of your approach.

As your guide, I'm solely concerned with pointing you where to look in direct experience so that, eventually, you'll see and therefore know for a fact whether or not there is a separate self anywhere. That being so, I need to cut through to the core of what you are saying as it's crucial for me to identify any area of uncertainty or ambiguity before we move on with this search for a separate self. So, please excuse me if at times I seem a bit pedantic.

Now, I'm almost certain that, despite the degree of difficulty dependant on which sense arising it was, and aside from what thoughts would have been telling you, in direct experience you were totally unable to find any 'I', any seer, hearer, toucher/feeler, taster or smeller, nor any separate object of experience, nor any kind of boundary between them. In direct experience there was just seeing, hearing, feeling, tasting and smelling.

Is that correct? If not, please point up any area where there is still any degree of uncertainty.

We'll move on to looking directly at thoughts and thinking, choosing and deciding soon ...

Pete x

[Annja]

Hi Pete
thought I had answered this one, but maybe thats just a thought, and not clearly perhaps so here goes...

Can you find a 'you', a separate self anywhere apart from in thinking? If so, please describe what you see-

Taste, hearing can directly experience eyes shut...no 'separate self' to be found.

when still or moving, eyes shut, body sensations and touch , as above no separate self

Smell something pleasant as above, no- 'seperate self
but smell I dont like thoughts come with a story .. an 'i' that believes the story her body swells with chemical smells, e.g. hair conditioner smelling ...scrunchy shouldered scunnchy feeling in forehead area, contracting body sensations, an 'i' thinking 'i can drop the story' sadness or rather sinking scrunched uo contraction, wetness around eyes' , 'not enough time thoughts'....not sure what else you want here,,,like a 2dness shape or form, heaviness, .... kept putting the smell away from me, then brought it back conscious opening to it .....stingy tingly feeling (nostrils) ...lumpy slimy sensation (throat) yet overall opening settling...rawness (chest aesophagus area) ,,, thought again maybe I can drop the chemical sensitivity story...several minutes later more and changing physical sensations, space opening, awareness moves to hearing rumbling soft tickling on body, breeze in face, back to smeller and smelt and notice a watcher kind of tensely, go looking for the watcher who is not anywhere, and for a moment just smelling... this is hard with a chemical smell.

Visual harder seems to fix things more, fix a seer and a seen, especially objects not attracted to e,g, that mop yet

Yet the mop and the towel ...its subtle ..looking at a mop its different..as though I like plants so there is an intimacy somehow, mop..no response initially then the beuaty of its blue colour, so something responding to the object ..something softens with the looking interest...took a while to be just seeing..

Theres more labelling though of objects than when eyes shut touching. Seeing things trigger thoughts and memories e.g. picture of my cats who passed away. Need to consciously soften and open look for the seer and cant find them then it softens and see more things not usually see, patterns colours ..seeing process seer seen boundaries blur.

If relax into hearing, tactile feelings, seeing somehow relaxes in

Hmm

When look for the 'i' that appears seperate in thinking cant describe what is seen as the 'i' disapears along with the thoughts,beliefs it was with,

Gemma

[moondog]

Hi Gemma,

thought I had answered this one, but maybe thats just a thought, and not clearly perhaps so here goes...

Yeah, I reckon you probably had Gemma but, as I tried to explain, I just need to be absolutely sure that 'you' can't find a self-entity anywhere when experiencing sense arisings. That's now become abundantly clear to me.

By the way, I really enjoy your poetic, lyrical style, but please bear in mind that, for the greatest clarity and effectiveness in this guiding, for both of us, replies should be as simple and clear as the context and conditions allow. As your guide, my concern is simply for you to clearly see for sure that there's no self, with me showing you where to look, and where the pitfalls might be.

So splendid, let's move on to looking at whether there's any self-entity to be found in thinking and thoughts.

Not from what you think, but from direct experience, please say:

Where do thoughts come from?

Are you in control of them?

Can you stop a thought from coming?

Can you stop it in the middle?

Do you know what the next thought will be?

Is 'I' a different thought from the thought of say, a table?

Can a thought think?

So far Gemma, I reckon this is going well, and that you're doing well. How do you feel about it to date?

Pete x

[Annja]

Hi Pete
Internet connection v. Poor here. Do my best .. Lyrical in separate sentences hope that helps. hard to get into word listing mode when experiencing.

Where do thoughts come from?

Well they just seem to come from nowhere. Its nothing to do with a ‘me’ having any control. Like either a thought(s) comes and ‘I’ have no idea its coming’. And when ‘I’ think ok ‘I’ will generate a thought, it makes me laugh because ‘I’ have no idea what thought is going to come...’lilac is a great colour’ came just now...! ‘Delightful’ another thought/feeling about how doing this exercise is.

Reflection- Like there thoughts are..like somewhere in this nowhere there is a thought generating machine like a bubble generating machine popping them out

Are you in control of them?

As above - Its nothing to do with a ‘me’ having any control. Like either a thought(s) comes and ‘I’ have no idea its coming’. And when ‘I’ think ok ‘I’ will generate a thought, it makes me laugh because ‘I’ have no idea what thought is going to come...’lilac is a great colour’ came just now...!

Can you stop a thought from coming?

No really not..not at all! They just come and I don’t know they are coming...it would be like trying to stop a bee coming at you when you don’t know they are coming or something like that.

If sitting and focusing deeply on direct experience, like the baked potato smell...then not seeming to be registering thoughts in moments of being.
Trying it now and chuckling away even when focusing on direct experience of tactile sensations, because the questions posed are present so thinking arising and passing.

Tinkly thoughts running about... arising passing arising passing, chuckling as watching this display, breeze pressure (of air) as partner approaches moves past me (eyes shut), thought ‘wow never knew the experience of people moving in air, (learnt the science at school).
Can’t consciously stop this...

Reflection: though thought of a memory when ‘I’ sit for an hour or so with direct experience of whatever arises as best I can in the past, thoughts calm and sometimes thought stream seems to stop. Not consciously trying to make it stop it just seems to.
If I relax into direct experience now, thoughts come and go along with other sense experiences, not bothering me

Can you stop it in the middle?

No really really not,

even when playing with the idea...like think a thought and stop it part way through, have to prethink the thought to stop...and then when thing part of it e.g. ‘’i will think..’the rest of the thought ‘a thought then stop’ somehow gets thought anyway. And if not a prethought about thought well whos to say where it was going to end so where on earth its middle is would be pure speculation!

Do you know what the next thought will be?

No...see above, even when trying to think about a question something else can distract and even the theme of the thinking is off somewhere else.

Is 'I' a different thought from the thought of say, a table?

Well initial response is a table does not want any thing... thoughts around the thought of a table does not seem to have attachments to it really. And thoughts with tables in only occur when the ‘table’ comes to ‘my’ attention e.g. stub toe on it, clean the table commands, on the table comments or thoughts. ‘I’ thoughts have a charge e.g. partner just said go to big beach and ‘i’ immediately respond in fact react, but you said small rocky cove today......plus indignant thought feelings etc etc! Ooops!

More purely: ‘i’ is a construct/concept so is ‘table’.

So no different theoretically. Yet we really invest so much in this ‘I ’ concept. Like ‘i’ is the centre of the universe sometimes. It likes dislikes, responds, reacts, generates thoughts, is aware of things, is able to be aware of itself. Emotionally charged this ‘i’.

Was going to say ‘i’ is less measurable than a table with a tape measure, but ‘my’ body is pretty measurable that way! We invest quite a lot in our construct of a table it seems.. My cat ‘i’ perceive would not label a table a table, not have the same uses for it. My cat knows the difference between ‘i’ and a ‘table’ ‘i’ strokes him ‘table’ does not.

Can a thought think?

No
and....
There is something that can do these wondering type thoughts, like when questioning ‘where is the watcher’, ‘where is the ‘t’ having that thought’, ‘where is the thought’ ‘how big is the tingly sesation, where is the boundary’. This wondering is not like the display of thinking that does not bother me as above, or the thoughts where I just get stuck in them and believe them like ‘I have to do this so it will be ok in the office’.
There is this alive delightful curiousness. So like this something that is aware of phenomena arising and falling, So maybe this awareness/presence/being something is not thoughts and is aware of itself and can wonder about itself, but then making this awareness a’thought’.

Aarggghhh! The moment try to use language what just is flowing sometimes becomes constructs!!!!

So far Gemma, I reckon this is going well, and that you're doing well. How do you feel about it to date?

Really interesting to be so specific around these questions and direct experiencing, like aha moments and also clarity on some teachings from before. Makes me sit and do it, delightful , delightful, delightful, and forget the beach, yet there are two beings on this hols so off to the beach now.

An afterthought!: This ‘i’ is no more real than this computer, just something about which have a construct, but really attached to this ‘i’ get stuck in there repeatedly, don’t get stuck in tables, although do get stuck perceiving them as real tables though as often as get stuck in the ‘i’ thought. The two stuck realnesses seem to go hand in hand..they would have to wouldn’t they as an ‘i’ implys an’other’ eg,. Table, you, anything else really!!!!

Relax and the boundaries blur and disappear just all being, experiencing, hearing seeing, passing thinking, tasting, tactiling..

Gemma

[moondog]

Hi Gemma,

Great replies on thinking and thoughts. Just a selection:

Where do thoughts come from?

Well they just seem to come from nowhere. Its nothing to do with a ‘me’ having any control. Like either a thought(s) comes and ‘I’ have no idea its coming’. And when ‘I’ think ok ‘I’ will generate a thought, it makes me laugh because ‘I’ have no idea what thought is going to come...’lilac is a great colour’ came just now...! ‘Delightful’ another thought/feeling about how doing this exercise is.

It's just a mystery isn't it? And have you noticed that when a thought is 'looked at', i.e. mysteriously brought into focus, it's not there! Weird.

Its nothing to do with a ‘me’ having any control. Like either a thought(s) comes and ‘I’ have no idea its coming’. And when ‘I’ think ok ‘I’ will generate a thought, it makes me laugh because ‘I’ have no idea what thought is going to come...’lilac is a great colour’ came just now...!

Exactly. Happens just like that, all the time.

Tinkly thoughts running about... arising passing arising passing

I like that. As well as the more obvious and definite thoughts, there's often a stream of subtler, less defined thoughts, just arising, briefly abiding, and then subsiding. Beautiful really.

If I relax into direct experience now, thoughts come and go along with other sense experiences, not bothering me

Yeah, and it's all just sense arisings, including thoughts, just coming and going...

Is 'I' a different thought from the thought of say, a table?

More purely: ‘i’ is a construct/concept so is ‘table’. So no different theoretically. Yet we really invest so much in this ‘I ’ concept. Like ‘i’ is the centre of the universe sometimes. It likes dislikes, responds, reacts, generates thoughts, is aware of things, is able to be aware of itself. Emotionally charged this ‘i’.

But, in direct experience, can you find this 'it', this 'I' doing any of these things, or is there just awareness, with 'objects', including what we call thoughts, arising and falling away? And do some of these thoughts 'contain' the message that 'I don't like that' or 'I wish this was different' or 'This is just perfect the way it is (Hope it never changes)' etc?

There is something that can do these wondering type thoughts, like when questioning ‘where is the watcher’, ‘where is the ‘t’ having that thought’, ‘where is the thought’ ‘how big is the tingly sesation, where is the boundary’. This wondering is not like the display of thinking that does not bother me as above, or the thoughts where I just get stuck in them and believe them like ‘I have to do this so it will be ok in the office’.
There is this alive delightful curiousness. So like this something that is aware of phenomena arising and falling, So maybe this awareness/presence/being something is not thoughts and is aware of itself and can wonder about itself, but then making this awareness a’thought’.

Interesting. Can you say a little more about this Gemma. If not arisings in awareness like other thoughts, what are these wondering type thoughts? How do they differ? What is it that is not just more thoughts telling you so, and that 'you' can see in direct experience that shows that to be so?

An afterthought!: This ‘i’ is no more real than this computer, just something about which have a construct, but really attached to this ‘i’ get stuck in there repeatedly, don’t get stuck in tables, although do get stuck perceiving them as real tables though as often as get stuck in the ‘i’ thought. The two stuck realnesses seem to go hand in hand..they would have to wouldn’t they as an ‘i’ implys an’other’ eg,. Table, you, anything else really!!!!

Yep, all part of the same illusion. If there's a self, there's other, there's inside/outside, discrete objects, separation, suffering. No 'I': just this. Or as you say

the boundaries blur and disappear just all being, experiencing, hearing seeing, passing thinking, tasting, tactiling..

I hope you enjoy(ed) the beach. let's move on to doing and controlling, to see if, in direct experience, any 'you', any separate self can be found there:

It's clear that when we breathe, blink, digest food etc. there's no 'I' involved, but how is it for you when walking?

How is it when doing various everyday things like say, brushing your teeth, washing up, that kind of thing?
Try all kinds of stuff.

Is there any 'I' there for any of these actions, or are they just like 'automatic'?

Pete x

[Annja]

Hi Pete

But, in direct experience, can you find this 'it', this 'I' doing any of these things, or is there just awareness, with 'objects', including what we call thoughts, arising and falling away? And do some of these thoughts 'contain' the message that 'I don't like that' or 'I wish this was different' or 'This is just perfect the way it is (Hope it never changes)' etc?

In direct experience the 'i' is not doing any of those things ...its not about anywhere. There is just objects e.g. sounds light tingles etc arising and passing away , including thoughts, sometimes with an 'i dont want that' thrown in. And yet there seems to be something aware of this awareness...content about this, curious, delighted kind of.

However, the 'I dont want that' and the accompanying emotion e.g. sad made up of tightening, sinking stuff, tends to solidify 'me' out of direct experience quite often...lot of practice needed. Like just now, the thoughts 'well life just keeps on coming, sad, had enough, the stuff keeps on coming' pretty solid right now. Surrounded by chatting Italians ......so just sit and moving into direct experience, and lightening up , emotion shifting, the same solid 'i' thought dissolves with a smile.... yo!

There is something that can do these wondering type thoughts, like when questioning ‘where is the watcher’, ‘where is the ‘t’ having that thought’, ‘where is the thought’ ‘how big is the tingly sesation, where is the boundary’. This wondering is not like the display of thinking that does not bother me as above, or the thoughts where I just get stuck in them and believe them like ‘I have to do this so it will be ok in the office’.
There is this alive delightful curiousness. So like this something that is aware of phenomena arising and falling, So maybe this awareness/presence/being something is not thoughts and is aware of itself and can wonder about itself, but then making this awareness a’thought’.

Interesting. Can you say a little more about this Gemma. If not arisings in awareness like other thoughts, what are these wondering type thoughts? How do they differ? What is it that is not just more thoughts telling you so, and that 'you' can see in direct experience that shows that to be so?

To answer your above quoted question:: The thoughts differ as there is an intentionality around them, although perhaps it is just a new habit groove being made. These are set of thoughts been taught to do to loosen off the thoughts, moods, beliefs, stories etc. Insight meditation. So sit, calm, steady, then when notice a thought arising or a sound or tactile sensation say, questioning /reflecting - is it inside or outside, little big, how near , far, where is it, - all unanswerable as sense objects are ungraspable.‘I’ call them wonderings/questionings as it is intentional to do this as part of the sitting practice. dropping the questions in, getting curious, letting them be, really really not grasping after or wanting an answer - being fascinated by their unanswerableness. Sometimes can do this in daily life when lost in mood, sticky thoughts, and when awareness comes with the thought' 'i am stuck again' use these wonderings like 'where is the thought' 'where is the i thinking it' 'where is the looker', to come more present into direct experience.

Intentionally moving into direct experience as you have been encouraging me to explore seemed to dissolve the solid 'i dont want this, sad' state, quite easily. Sitting in direct experience now intentionally playing with these aforementioned questionings/wonderings they seem to be just more thoughts and rather insubstantial and not really needed, as moving into direct experience as ‘i’ am learning to do ‘i’ don’t seem to need them to help ‘me’ to see through the idea of a ‘separate self’, as when in direct experience ‘i’ am directly experiencing that there is no seperate ‘self’ !! More surreal!

It's clear that when we breathe, blink, digest food etc. there's no 'I' involved, but how is it for you when walking?

Reflection on memory of past experience: When walking in daily life usually on autopilot, thoughts past future worry plan etc. However, when e.g. walking over rocks taking great care...not an 'i' about there though just a taking great care about walking safely. In walking meditation practice in the past in direct experience of physical sensations in feet etc, or wherever intentionally put focus like on vedana (feeling tone of like /dislike).
Now: Just tried it again now just walking slowly then speeding up...like in a fairy land of sensations, seeing, hearing..surreal, cool, light, shapes, still labelling somewhat, no separate self though like embraced in no a part of everything no separate ‘i’.

How is it when doing various everyday things like say, brushing your teeth, washing up, that kind of thing?
Try all kinds of stuff.

Reflection on memory of past experience: Often on what 'I' call autopilot for brushing teeth, driving, washing up, thinking away in future or past, trying to get it over with, as not enough time belief pretty strong ‘thought’ in ‘my’ story. Something knows how to brush my teeth and wash up, something remembers and prompts me to do it more slowly and thoroughly sometimes, but ‘i’ don’t seem to be in control of when that more thorough teeth brushing happens, sometimes something arises to pay attention and brush more thoroughly..

When go into direct experience currently whilst doing these things, there is no ‘i’ present in them. That was just seriously strange..went to do some everyday things to experience your question... went brush my teeth, decide to go to the toilet on the way, then washed a pot just to experience washing up...its like watching my body do these things...does not need a ‘me; to tell it what to do, reaches for the towel, deals with an interruption whilst brushing my teeth and well watching hands efficiently washing a pot was just very odd. Does not need a ‘me’ to control this, it just seemed to be happening automatically, definitely no separate self ‘i’ about...so odd noticing ‘myself’ reaching for a towel. Went to get a drink to see what happens and body just kind of did it. There is an awareness of this all happening, chuckling, rather startled and curious.

Yet yet yet ...something ‘decided’ to do all those things because of a number of factors namely a) a response to your question, b) a passionate interest to know what would happen if ‘I’ did, c) the time to do this in d) the availability of objects e.g. toothbrush required, d)no big distractions from this etc So who or what decided to do the actions......if not ‘i’ then something decided and thats the something/awareness/curious alive presense that ‘I’ referred to in the first paragraph perhaps????

And also had there been a big enough distraction, or a lost toothbrush the ‘decision’ could not have been carried through! In fact the intended drinking from a cup failed to arise as could not find a cup in the dark!

Ho hum.
Gemma

[moondog]

Hi Gemma,

In direct experience the 'i' is not doing any of those things ...its not about anywhere. There is just objects e.g. sounds light tingles etc arising and passing away , including thoughts, sometimes with an 'i dont want that' thrown in. And yet there seems to be something aware of this awareness...content about this, curious, delighted kind of.

Quite so - you got it in one, and, either there's a thought that's telling you that there's 'something' aware of this awareness, or you can see this 'something' in direct experience. Looking at this in another way, with no self, there' can be no 'other', so no 'something' to know 'something else'. How about awareness simply being aware of/knowing itself? Do you see that?

However, the 'I dont want that' and the accompanying emotion e.g. sad made up of tightening, sinking stuff, tends to solidify 'me' out of direct experience quite often...lot of practice needed. Like just now, the thoughts 'well life just keeps on coming, sad, had enough, the stuff keeps on coming' pretty solid right now. Surrounded by chatting Italians ......so just sit and moving into direct experience, and lightening up , emotion shifting, the same solid 'i' thought dissolves with a smile.... yo!

We've all built up myriad habits/samskaras over however long, whilst under the spell of there being a self that must be cosseted and protected. Once the illusion is seen for what it is and the spell is broken, the flow of energy that feeds these selfing habits is stopped, but there is a momentum to all of this that keeps it going, all the while fading in strength, for some time, the length of which varies for each of us. However, once seen for what they are, these thoughts and feelings do lose their power to seduce.

To answer your above quoted question:: The thoughts differ as there is an intentionality around them, although perhaps it is just a new habit groove being made. These are set of thoughts been taught to do to loosen off the thoughts, moods, beliefs, stories etc. Insight meditation. So sit, calm, steady, then when notice a thought arising or a sound or tactile sensation say, questioning /reflecting - is it inside or outside, little big, how near , far, where is it, - all unanswerable as sense objects are ungraspable.‘I’ call them wonderings/questionings as it is intentional to do this as part of the sitting practice. dropping the questions in, getting curious, letting them be, really really not grasping after or wanting an answer - being fascinated by their unanswerableness. Sometimes can do this in daily life when lost in mood, sticky thoughts, and when awareness comes with the thought' 'i am stuck again' use these wonderings like 'where is the thought' 'where is the i thinking it' 'where is the looker', to come more present into direct experience.

Thanks for your explanation; I see what you were getting at now. It's a practice I'm very familiar with. I was going to say something about intentionality being more thought labelling, but your subsequent comments have done that for me:

Intentionally moving into direct experience as you have been encouraging me to explore seemed to dissolve the solid 'i dont want this, sad' state, quite easily. Sitting in direct experience now intentionally playing with these aforementioned questionings/wonderings they seem to be just more thoughts and rather insubstantial and not really needed, as moving into direct experience as ‘i’ am learning to do ‘i’ don’t seem to need them to help ‘me’ to see through the idea of a ‘separate self’, as when in direct experience ‘i’ am directly experiencing that there is no seperate ‘self’ !! More surreal!

It's really good that you are seeing that.

When go into direct experience currently whilst doing these things, there is no ‘i’ present in them. That was just seriously strange..went to do some everyday things to experience your question... went brush my teeth, decide to go to the toilet on the way, then washed a pot just to experience washing up...its like watching my body do these things...does not need a ‘me; to tell it what to do, reaches for the towel, deals with an interruption whilst brushing my teeth and well watching hands efficiently washing a pot was just very odd. Does not need a ‘me’ to control this, it just seemed to be happening automatically, definitely no separate self ‘i’ about...so odd noticing ‘myself’ reaching for a towel. Went to get a drink to see what happens and body just kind of did it. There is an awareness of this all happening, chuckling, rather startled and curious.

It's strange and wonderful isn't it, just being aware of stuff happening, actions being done with no doer.

Yet yet yet ...something ‘decided’ to do all those things because of a number of factors namely a) a response to your question, b) a passionate interest to know what would happen if ‘I’ did, c) the time to do this in d) the availability of objects e.g. toothbrush required, d)no big distractions from this etc So who or what decided to do the actions......if not ‘i’ then something decided and thats the something/awareness/curious alive presense that ‘I’ referred to in the first paragraph perhaps????

I've touched on this at the beginning in response to what you said. It also segues in nicely with looking for a separate self in choosing/deciding, which overlaps so much with doing and controlling as to be virtually inseparable anyway. So, please have go at the following exercise:

Raise your right arm (or don’t). In that process of raising the right arm (or not), a decision is made, or at least something happens (or doesn’t). But can you pinpoint the actual moment of choice and find the actual entity that appears to be making that choice? In direct experience, can that moment of choice, that apparent chooser, actually be found? Or does the idea 'I just chose to (not) raise my right arm' come after the event itself?

Although you might already know it, you might find the following short video clip from BBC Horizon - The Secret You on Neuroscience and Freewill interesting: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-i3AiOS4nCE . It demonstrates scientifically that our decisions and choices are made a full 6 seconds before we think we make them, i.e. before a thought arises saying, "I decided to do this." There is no substitute for looking in direct experience, but this is excellent scientific corroboration for what is to be found, or rather not found, in direct experience.

I reckon that's more than enough for now Gemma.

Love

Pete

[Annja]

Hi Pete

Raise your right arm (or don’t). In that process of raising the right arm (or not), a decision is made, or at least something happens (or doesn’t). But can you pinpoint the actual moment of choice and find the actual entity that appears to be making that choice? In direct experience, can that moment of choice, that apparent chooser, actually be found? Or does the idea 'I just chose to (not) raise my right arm' come after the event itself?

Well when I reflect back on what happened as reading the paragraph question...the decision to not raise my arm was there whilst reading the paragraph. ...

Playing with it again now can't pinpoint the moment of choice or find an entity making that choice ...very strange playing with this - like leaving arm dangling then moving it up and down - its moving but no 'me' saying when. The ‘chooser’ cant be found.

The commentary / idea on the right arm raising seems to come after the right arm is raised sometimes. Although the commentary around arm raising or not is kind of floating around on and off in direct experience anyway, arising passing away like everything else.

Also playing with saying to 'myself' 'i am choosing to raise my right arm now' but then it might or might not raise as a result of that and not sure what is causing that certainly not a ‘me’ deciding to raise or not raise.
As best ‘I’ can sitting in direct experience of sounds sensations, eyes shut, and it seems that as long as this exercise is in my mind - after my right or left arm raises...really playing with this... there is a comment about this afterwards, although almost beneath the radar if staying pretty present with direct experience. Also noticing sometimes ‘I’ come present separate and actively make mental noise to obscure this commentary afterwards ..still sneaks in though this commentary! ...If drop the ‘i’ again going back into direct experience am also noticing commentary about raising arm again floating into direct experience along with sounds tactile visual sensations etc whilst arm is hanging, yet no ‘i’ then deciding when to chose to raise an arm again.!!


Playing with that wondering/questioning now, asking ‘where is the chooser’ as ‘I’ raise and lower the arm..can’t see one..then ask ‘where is the seeker’, and it all starts getting bemusing and silly looking under my arm down my shirt etc and chuckling...
or playing without questioning and arms go up and down and around quite happily without a ‘me’ in the way.


Now playing with this commentary./idea something.... Thinking about and 'consciously' doing a series of actions now - eg. think i will stand up then do so, wink then do so, etc.......standing up, winking, tapping my foot, touching the wall, sitting down, ...and there is a commentary about the idea/action about and also commentary after the action with an echo comment about it.

But then sitting here in front of the computer again now and relaxing into direct experience with intention of letting my body twitch whatever part wants to twitch, there's just twitching body bits and no commentary...just giggles as body bits twitch.

also when stand and just let body move in room there is no commentary, spaces expands boundaries of body being there blur....movements with no idea of what movement will occur, no moment of choice or chooser.
Again when directly experiencing no separate self, no chooser no decider, no moment of choice although have the intention to drop into direct experience as am rather clunky and often not in direct experience .

Hmmm

Gemma

[moondog]

Hi Gemma,

Playing with it again now can't pinpoint the moment of choice or find an entity making that choice ...very strange playing with this - like leaving arm dangling then moving it up and down - its moving but no 'me' saying when. The ‘chooser’ cant be found. The commentary / idea on the right arm raising seems to come after the right arm is raised sometimes. Although the commentary around arm raising or not is kind of floating around on and off in direct experience anyway, arising passing away like everything else.

This flows on nicely from the experience of doing without a doer earlier and, when it's seen, as you've clearly seen, that there's no one choosing or deciding anything, it can be really undermining for the sense of a separate self because being able to make decisions can seem so fundamental to identity. But it can also be very freeing to see that 'decisions' just happen; and that frequently, though not always, we add commentary to take credit for the initiation and/or outcomes of 'our' decisions and choices.

Playing with that wondering/questioning now, asking ‘where is the chooser’ as ‘I’ raise and lower the arm..can’t see one..then ask ‘where is the seeker’, and it all starts getting bemusing and silly looking under my arm down my shirt etc and chuckling...or playing without questioning and arms go up and down and around quite happily without a ‘me’ in the way.

As you say, no 'you' in the way. 'Where is the seeker' is a good reminder that, not only is there no separate self to be found anywhere, but also there's no self, no one, looking for that self that's not there.

I appreciate how thoroughly you've looked into this Gemma. You've now looked at seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling and touching, thinking, acting/doing, controlling, choosing and deciding and you've found not a trace of a separate self.

One area where we haven't yet looked yet is the body, and whether the self is the body, or is in the body. From direct experience:

Does the body experience sensations and thoughts?

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinaesthetic)?

There's just one question left over from my previous post where you might not have realised I wanted an answer or maybe just a comment:

... either there's a thought that's telling you that there's 'something' aware of this awareness, or you can see this 'something' in direct experience. Looking at this in another way, with no self, there' can be no 'other', so no 'something' to know 'something else'. How about awareness simply being aware of/knowing itself? Do you see that?


Pete x

[Annja]

Hi Pete

... either there's a thought that's telling you that there's 'something' aware of this awareness, or you can see this 'something' in direct experience. Looking at this in another way, with no self, there' can be no 'other', so no 'something' to know 'something else'. How about awareness simply being aware of/knowing itself? Do you see that?

Yup indeed --- awareness aware of itself...chuckles a lot this awareness

Does the body experience sensations and thoughts?

When eyes closed there are many tingly sensations in the area memory tells me the body is...beither just background of tingling or looking some cold, hard, soft, warm touch sensations and some tingling. If move to particular sensations e.g. cold hard sensations, others fade into background or disapear. Certainly not a whole body sensation/shape.

If play the wondering questioning game ‘how big, Little, near, far,’ no answers to be found about these sensations...like they are just there everywhere nowhere. Moving finger fun with awareness in finger tip tingle, cant sense the tingle moving although am aware finger moving (partner confirms this).....
awareness just cracked up laughing as wrote this as who is to say what partner saw or imagined or.....if its all stuff just arising in awareness ...

So sensations arising there in awareness, not a body experiencing them.

Can the body experience thoughts is an incomprehensible question at the moment as thoughts just arise and pass on in awareness. Cant seem to find a thought to hang on to long enough to worry about just right now...have tried! So no the body cant experience thoughts when being present in direct experience, thoughts just arise and pass away in awareness like other sense sensations.

Reflection on noncurrent experience: When there is an ‘i’ caught up in ruminating thoughts, the thoughts used to seem to be definitely in my head, but seemed to have challenged that enough by looking for the head and not finding it then looking for the thought, and now thoughts often dissolve when looked for or kind of just be around while awareness plays with loosening them, but can take sustained practice as get stuck in the thoughts again.
A very sticky thought that catches an ‘i’ with an emotional charge has associated scrunchy contracted sensations in body, and can catch an ‘i’ self stuff for quite a while still. Like when grumpy, sad, stuck contracted feelings about today, took a while for thoughts to loosen and dissolve, moving into direct experience not naturally happening often as yet. Getting easier though.

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinaesthetic)?

The body is a thought label, just a concept construct thing. My cat does not, ‘i’ perceive, label it a body, just a warm stroke giving food giving thing..or some such but not a body!. The ‘body’ kind of does lots of stuff on autopilot so something is there doing something.

Don’t think would call the ‘body’ a thought label for tactile and kinaesthetic sensations though, the sensations are just sensations. We tend to talk of the sensations as in the body area though, or the body touching, moving..

When move hand in space eyes shut now just flowing enveloping tingly cool sensations and cold hard sensations (contact with the chair) then warm sensations arising and passing, flowing between these tactile kinaesthetic sensations. Same when sitting eyes shut just sensations. With eyes open it kind of fixes more the body sometimes ... Just googled kinaesthetic – ‘the sense that detects bodily position, weight or movement of the muscles, tendons, joints’ ... now eyes open can see the arm moving yet eyes shut just changing sensations ...weird not like movement really.....kindof unfolding flowing in the same space kindof...

....and right now fascinating watching some things tapping a keyboard something...............its fun a something started to hit the ..... fullstop/dot button just for the fun of it , the sounds quite cool too.....and no feet in sight so just some tingles there abouts. llllllll kkkdkl;;gldkkms c.d,....taping sensations quite cool..nnnnnnn,,,,aa,,a,,a,a,kkkk, as are little tapping type noises.

Gemma x

[moondog]

Hi Gemma,

... either there's a thought that's telling you that there's 'something' aware of this awareness, or you can see this 'something' in direct experience. Looking at this in another way, with no self, there' can be no 'other', so no 'something' to know 'something else'. How about awareness simply being aware of/knowing itself? Do you see that?
Yup indeed --- awareness aware of itself...chuckles a lot this awareness

Lovely. I like that 'it' chuckles :)

When eyes closed there are many tingly sensations in the area memory tells me the body is...beither just background of tingling or looking some cold, hard, soft, warm touch sensations and some tingling. If move to particular sensations e.g. cold hard sensations, others fade into background or disapear. Certainly not a whole body sensation/shape. So sensations arising there in awareness, not a body experiencing them.

These and your other observations and comments tell me that you see very clearly that there's just experiencing, nothing else.

The body is a thought label, just a concept construct thing. My cat does not, ‘i’ perceive, label it a body, just a warm stroke giving food giving thing..or some such but not a body!. The ‘body’ kind of does lots of stuff on autopilot so something is there doing something.
Don’t think would call the ‘body’ a thought label for tactile and kinaesthetic sensations though, the sensations are just sensations. We tend to talk of the sensations as in the body area though, or the body touching, moving..

Yep, I get that. Great poetry too!

So Gemma, you've now looked very thoroughly in all the various areas of direct experience and you haven't been able to find a self in any of them. Before I ask you some sweep-up questions, I'd just like to see what you make of the following, which just ask you to look at all of this from a bit of a different perspective:

With 'you' revealed as a thought story, what remains?

What experiences?

What thinks?

What does?

What is aware?

Splendid stuff.

Pete x

[Annja]

Hi Pete

With 'you' revealed as a thought story, what remains?

Just awareness, direct experience of sounds, physical sensations, thoughts, smells, tastes, visual stuff, unfolding arising passing away....like now...sounds...shapes tapping shapes...warmth ..tingling......soft...hard...light..shapes..colours....

.. there seems to be stuff around that arises in awareness...like a ’table’ when not in direct experience and yet in direct experience there is no separation...’no self’..no ‘table’...boundaries of touch...yet somehow...no boundaries...all in the same space.....with sounds..with warmth...with tingling.....hmm...curiouser and curiouser...

The thought of partner as 'other' is about now, though they kind of deconstruct if 'I' start to wonder what they are except a bunch of visuals, sounds, smells etc, arising, staying awhile, passing ...and somehow the only 'them' 'i' perceive is 'my' experience of 'them', 'they' might really be quite magnificently not what the 'i' thought perceives 'them' to be......confusing...

What experiences?

Awareness experiences itself

What thinks?

Thoughts arise stay a while and pass on, cant find anything that thinks, just thinking is around........yet something is alive and curious, playing, .... awareness aware of itself.

Cept when 'i' get soooo stuck in old habit patterns lots and there is the well sticky thought of a solid ‘self’ again, there 'i' am again with all kinds of thoughts about the past or future as if they’re real (awareness kindof chuckles and raises metaphorical eyebrow as writing this) 'I am grumpy irritated'!!!! So there seems to be a lot of stuff around that 'i' have built up as 'me'... Yo trust these habits loosening .....maybe just hang out in the grumpy feeling area and let that be ok!

What does?

Well dont perceive anything that does ....there is just doing...'like now shapes tapping 'computer keys'...

What is aware?

Cant find anything, no seeker looking either...
awareness is aware

Gemma x

[moondog]

Hi Gemma,

With 'you' revealed as a thought story, what remains?

Just awareness, direct experience of sounds, physical sensations, thoughts, smells, tastes, visual stuff, unfolding arising passing away....like now...sounds...shapes tapping shapes...warmth ..tingling......soft...hard...light..shapes..colours....
Awareness experiences itself.
Thoughts arise stay a while and pass on, cant find anything that thinks, just thinking is around........yet something is alive and curious, playing, .... awareness aware of itself.
Well dont perceive anything that does ....there is just doing...'like now shapes tapping 'computer keys'...
Cant find anything, no seeker looking either... awareness is aware

Yes indeedy! Lovely stuff Gemma. I reckon you've thoroughly and certainly seen through this illusion and I'm really, really pleased. However, I need to be sure that you're sure before I put the 'final questions' to you so, I'd just like briefly to review everything we've done so far, simply to see whether there are any areas or aspects you'd like to revisit and look at in more depth for any evidence of a self-entity there.

As always, in direct experience:

Have you been able to find, a ‘self’ that is the ‘experiencer’?

Or a self that is the doer, or can control what happens?

Or a self that ‘makes’ decisions?

Or a self who ‘does the thinking’?

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?

Are the five body senses made to arise or experienced by this ‘self’?

Is there a self ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’?

Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?

And finally:

Are there any doubts about seeing through the illusion of separate self?

This might seem like a bit if a long list of questions but the answers can be brief, unless of course there's something you want to examine some more. As I've said, it doesn't look to me as if there's likely to be much, if anything, but basically, we just need to tidy up and identify any areas that may need to be looked into a bit more deeply, or clarified.

Pete x

[Annja]

Hi Pete

Have you been able to find, a ‘self’ that is the ‘experiencer’?

Like playing with moving the cursor down the page with the enter button several times then up again (as though ‘i’ could think to do this)...who is experiencing this...not seeming to find a ‘self’ that is the ‘experiencer’.... kind of have to go through the different sensing experiences to check out a ‘self’ not there anywhere....it all just seems to be happening.
Now its like a play now the finger shapes tapping the up and down keys alternatively..not a conscious thought to do that alternating just something playing..awareness ‘i’ guess....

Or a self that is the doer, or can control what happens?

No self that is the doer or controlling anything...things kind of get doinged though without there being a ‘self’..

Or a self that ‘makes’ decisions?

Very confusing can think to go have a shower yet not move, not sure what will make ‘me’ go to have a shower or quite when....so no self making the decision. Awareness seems to have got curious again...so not in the shower yet...(later...had a shower..and back to typing now...just went into the shower room after unpacking...hmmm)

Or a self who ‘does the thinking’?

Definitely not a self thinking...like can have the thought ‘i can make thoughts’...yet no idea what thought will arise....

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?

Well sensations are just sensations.....dont see the body as a thought label...just kind of where seem to place sensations when thinking in concept of a ‘body’ ....quite surreal playing with eyes shut bringing ‘fingertip’ sensation towards ‘face’ ...like ‘finger’ seems to have gone through where the thought of ‘face’ is and still no touch/contact soft sensation, almost like finger and face fold in on themselves and are not there....
if shut eyes just tingles hard soft warm immersed in ‘traffic’ sounds and sounds in the tingles....a thought arises to tap up down keys again ....doesnt happen....not so good at this decision control thing...lift hand to tap...smile,,,chuckle...shapes .... carry on tapping letter keys..tapping sounds...not sure what happens if go to tap the down key

It goes down....tapping kind of happened then...but is it 'down' ....'does anything move anywhere' thought arising...

Are the five body senses made to arise or experienced by this ‘self’?

The five body senses just arise...no maker ‘self’ to make senses arisings...senses arising just happening in awareness....not a ‘self’ to experience them just sensing happening in direct experience....

Is there a self ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’?

No ‘self’ ‘in here’ separate from the world or others ‘out there’,


Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?

the ‘self’ is a mental fabrication in all these cases...no doubt there... and the body is a concept/construct....
and yet its like the ‘body’ is a conduit ... a way awareness is aware of ....knows itself...a way of making sense....interface with something that is different yet not separate..somehow.....like awareness connects with things arising in itself through the 'body'....yet those things arising like sounds tingles light smells and others are also awareness....

And finally:

Are there any doubts about seeing through the illusion of separate self?

See immediately above answer 'body' senses interface......its not a doubt about the illusion of a separate self.... yet a kind of confusion there....

and something about an otherness/distinctness/diferentness of others..

.... a difficult area: Seem to have trouble with when seeing and touching at same time... as though something other is there,,,,,eyes shut no boundaries no toucher or touched just touching (computer base).. eyes open if relax in to direct experience no seer no seen object just seeing...both senses together hmmmmm!
Seeing and touching....the ‘body’ is like a concept for the experience of touch contact with something if eyes open e.g. ‘computer base’ object...yet eyes shut....just sensations...smooth silky tingle sharp hard...so touching in direct experience..

Playing with it now...sitting here seeing shape on shape...like a ‘hand’ shape not connected to an ‘i’ on a ‘computer’ shape...like no real boundary between ‘finger’ and ‘computer’ base shapes....not separate..can feel the hard warm when eyes open...when shut just hard warm sensation with no boundaries...though there is not a ‘self’ touching or seeing that can be found...just touching and seeing... ‘is there really a computer is there really a hand’ thought arising....’what is this ..is this a dream...does it matter’ thought arising and passing....

Gemma x