New contact introduction

[lizinprocess]

Ok - ready for the 6 questions

Liz

[JonathanR]

OK Liz. Answer from immediate experience rather than thoughts :-)

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now
.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

[lizinprocess]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No separate entity exists, and never was.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now

The illusion starts with a delusion or belief in separateness created and fed initially by family, friends, others through comments and relationships . A myth of a fixed self is created - thoughts and attention are then focused on looking for confirmation of the created myth which forms the basis of a view of life based on duality - me and them, this and that, self and other. Anything that counters this view is ignored or just not seen, blocking experience of the constant creative, dynamic flow of life. Life is experienced through the view of a self. Others are viewed as part of this delusion - seen as separate selves and are fixed as this or that. The true interrelated nature of us all not seen.

How do I see it now?
When looking after step-grandchildren I hear this being played out in their talk, their expressions about themselves and their experience of life, how their parents talk about them - words used and repeated by the children. Self becomes fixed and reaffirmed and boundaries created - ideas that step across boundaries produces resistance or fear - the ideas interpreted in relation to the self myth. This is all an illusion - the self is a constructed myth - waking up to this, life is lived without the idea of a separate struggling self as a constant reference point.
Pain and suffering still happen - this is a physical body living in a changing reality. Nothing stays the same, all is in constant change. Experiences still can contain old patterns, repetition of old stories, old energetic patterns - I experience this but can see these in terms of what they are - transient, passing sensations. Attaching these patterns to the idea of a separate self has no meaning, is unnecessary, limiting and creates suffering.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

I feel a deep quiet. Daily meditations are quite different - experiencing both stillness and flow, observing all in motion - within and without. There is a release of control - not practicing 'doing' meditation - no techniques used where thoughts and intention are directed, just being with whatever is there. Before I started this dialogue I 'worked' at meditation, applied effort, held a view about spiritual progress, held views about 'my spiritual journey' - a story. Applied ideas of how to evaluate spiritual progress drawn from Buddhist traditions and so effort was part of practice - accompanied at times with feelings of despair and tiredness. There was alot of judgements about how this Liz self was progressing including judgements about how 'she' was able to let go of self. All this was very subtle but still there. There was an intellectual understanding of the insubstantiality of self, but the difference now is it is seen, felt, wordless, real.
The main difference is about control. The self myth wrapped up in 'got to do', applying effort. I don't need to control anymore, there is nothing to control. Habit is still there and sensations of anxiety as thoughts arise about 'needing to do' but there is no strength in the sensations and they fall.

Liz

[JonathanR]

Hi Liz,

Just need to check a couple of things.

Experiences still can contain old patterns, repetition of old stories, old energetic patterns - I experience this but can see these in terms of what they are - transient, passing sensations. Attaching these patterns to the idea of a separate self has no meaning, is unnecessary, limiting and creates suffering.

Who or what 'experiences' and 'sees'?

. I don't need to control anymore,

Is there a person 'not controling' any more?


Jonathan




Jonathan.

[lizinprocess]

Hi Jonathan

Who or what 'experiences' and 'sees'?

I don't know - there are sensations apart from that nothing else.

Is there a person 'not controling' any more?

No.

Liz

[JonathanR]

OK thanks Liz. Here are the rest of the questions.


4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience

6) Anything to add?




Love. J.

[lizinprocess]

Hi Jonathan
Had a terrible night - doubts arising, felt as though there was a fight going on....now I don't know. Is any 'insight' seen a persuasion of thought? The communication sent to you was honest, clarity was there at that time of communication. There was a sense of being part of ordinariness and beauty but now not sure what is going on but can see there is some clinging to a concept of self, of effort and trying to control this - despairing. Then asking what is there to cling to? Where is the self in this? Looking at sensations in the body seeing them as a ball of tightness.
Trying, trying - how to stop this?
Is there an interpretation of this part of the dialogue seen as confirmation of 'spiritual progress"? Is there anything there that is wanting 'spiritual progress'? If looked for - No.

Had to communicate but you must be tired of this!
Liz

[JonathanR]

Not at all Liz. :-)

There was a sense of being part of ordinariness and beauty but now not sure what is going on but can see there is some clinging to a concept of self, of effort and trying to control this - despairing

And

Is any 'insight' seen a persuasion of thought?

Alright. We will look into these things.

Might it be useful to discard the notion of 'insight'? Whatever the word may point to it is just a label isn't it?
Could the idea 'insight' its self contain an assumption of some 'way that an 'enlightened being' should 'experience things'? Isn't this what thought says? Tell me if this makes sense or not?


What should 'insight' look like? Tell me.

What is 'insight' if it is not a thought? A thought-label.

Yes, thought can be a very slippery fish.

Are doubts a sign of failure? Or of not having 'insight'? Could there be a confusion concerning 'doubt' at play here?
An idea that this process must equate to the 'elimination of doubts'? Or otherwise not be 'Insight' with a capital I?

But if we get rid of the of 'Insight' and concentrate on what can be noticed here and now, isn't it patently clear that no separate self exists anywhere? That is something that can be 'seen' in direct experience, isn't it? Tell me.

Tell me that you find an 'I' any time you look for one ( other than as an idea in thought)?

Isn't it simple? No doubt about it when you look. Where is 'I'? Is it in the body? Is it in thought? Is it in sensations?

LOOKING reveals this truth beyond doubt, doesn't it? Is there a 'self anywhere in Life?

It's perfectly possible to have the thought 'I have doubts about whether I believe this amounts to insight.' And 'is any insight seen a persuasion of thought'? It is highly likely that thoughts such as these will come and go for some time. Why?

Certainly the habit of a lifetime has been for thoughts to pop up and suggest an illusory reality, an illusory self. Just because it has been noticed of late that 'self' is a mirage, will thoughts just stop?

Isn't it likely that thought will go on making suggestions, some of them quite slippery, such as 'is any insight seen a persuasion of thought'? Won't this just happen? How could this thought be prevented? Is there a 'Liz' to prevent such an idea from appearing?

And yet can thought actually make anything happen? Thought can prattle away about what 'should be' but does it create reality? ( For example, can it lift a cup?).

When it is seen that there is no 'self' this is an observation that comes by looking ditectly at experience right here and now and noticing....well, a void. That void IS. It's really immovable. Isn't it laughably simple? How could one not have noticed this? It has always been thus. Like rain. It just IS. Who needs the word 'Insight' ?

And your thought about the 'fragility' of 'insight'. Things that are fragile are usually brittle, thin and likely to break, aren't they? Like a happy state of mind after meditation that can be shattered in a moment.

But is 'no-self' a 'state of mind'?

Is 'no-self' fragile?
Can it be broken or lost?
Who 'has' it anyway?

In Taoism I believe that the image of nature is reflected upon There is an idea that the Tao is somewhat like the grass which blows in the wind but can never break.

What do you think, Liz, might we get rid of the word 'fragile' and instead use the word 'subtle'?

There is a lot here Liz but could you answer each question in turn, A simple 'yes' or 'no' will do for many of them but do answer them each in turn.


Love.

Jonathan

[lizinprocess]

Thanks Jonathan for such a long thoughtful response - helpful pointers, very clear and kind - desperate feelings have subsided immediately, just disappeared - they arose and then went....interesting. Your points speak of truth, I have no doubt of that.

Might it be useful to discard the notion of 'insight'? Whatever the word may point to it is just a label isn't it?
Could the idea 'insight' its self contain an assumption of some 'way that an 'enlightened being' should 'experience things'? Isn't this what thought says? Tell me if this makes sense or not?

The word 'insight' has been used throughout my Buddhist practice - reference during study and as a reference to progress. The assumptions, which I can see have been absorbed, is that it 'breaks through delusion' pierces the 'veil' of delusion driven by aversion and grasping. 'Achieving Insight' means you step off the wheel of suffering - these thoughts say that is how enlightened beings live. Thought says that I am still on the wheel, experiencing delusion, weaving a reality based on grasping at liberation. This was feeding doubts last night.

What should 'insight' look like? Tell me.

The word 'should' jumps out....... Insight sees the delusion caused by the self which is the reference at the heart of all experience, how this changes experience. The word Insight suggests a 'someone' has achieved the ability to not grasp at the rise and fall of experience, sees through the illusion of control.
Yes, oh lets get rid of the word 'Insight' - it is fixing an imagined state - and thoughts are saying 'I' am not there yet. But there is no 'I' to get anywhere - realising the implications of 30 years of Buddhist practice.

Are doubts a sign of failure? Or of not having 'insight'? Could there be a confusion concerning 'doubt' at play here?
An idea that this process must equate to the 'elimination of doubts'? Or otherwise not be 'Insight' with a capital I?

Yes, doubts are being equated as failure.
Doubts are phenomena so can be seen as part of DE
But I have to share with you that the experience of doubt tends, habitually, to be accompanied by intense emotion - often despair. Tried last night to look for emotional sensations in the body but difficult.

Tell me that you find an 'I' any time you look for one ( other than as an idea in thought)?

No, no 'I' can be found anywhere.

It's perfectly possible to have the thought 'I have doubts about whether I believe this amounts to insight.' And 'is any insight seen a persuasion of thought'? It is highly likely that thoughts such as these will come and go for some time. Why?

Selective, habitual thinking, repetitive thoughts thinking in old grooves, slow releasing of habitual emotional patterns. The 'self ideas' wont just disappear over night.

And yet can thought actually make anything happen? Thought can prattle away about what 'should be' but does it create reality? ( For example, can it lift a cup?).

Over the last few weeks I have been observing how nothing is controlled, 'I' don't make things happen - they just do. Thought doesn't create reality - just delusion.

And your thought about the 'fragility' of 'insight'. Things that are fragile are usually brittle, thin and likely to break, aren't they? Like a happy state of mind after meditation that can be shattered in a moment.

Oh I am so glad you have pointed to this - one of the reasons I am having this dialogue is I have been intensely aware of this.

But is 'no-self' a 'state of mind'?

I don't know how to say what no-self is. It isn't a state of mind.

Is 'no-self' fragile?

No. The image in Taoism of the bending grasses is powerful - thank you for bringing this image - flowing with the wind, with weather, rippling, subtle rather than fragile.

Sending this with so much gratitude Jonathan.
Love Liz

[JonathanR]

Hi Liz,

Achieving Insight' means you step off the wheel of suffering - these thoughts say that is how enlightened beings live. Thought says that I am still on the wheel, experiencing delusion, weaving a reality based on grasping at liberation. This was feeding doubts last night.

Good to have seen through it.

As long as 'Liz' is perceived to 'exist' and to need to 'get off the wheel' there will appear to be suffering. Is this true?

But I have to share with you that the experience of doubt tends, habitually, to be accompanied by intense emotion - often despair. Tried last night to look for emotional sensations in the body but difficult.

Without a 'real self' to prevent their approach, what is there that could actually stop doubts from passing through? Even despair? However, equally, what is there to be actually harmed by these feelings? What is there for them to stick to and what to prevent them from passing through briskly?

Isn't any tradition that treats honest doubt or even despair as 'inappropriate' or 'selfish' or 'failure' not denying part of Life? Wouldn't that be like denying the slightly terrifying thrill of night?

Over the last few weeks I have been observing how nothing is controlled, 'I' don't make things happen - they just do. Thought doesn't create reality - just delusion.

Excellent.

Thank you for sticking this out. It has been an honour :-)

Now, are there any lingering doubts or do you feel like answering the final three questions?


Love.

Jonathan

[lizinprocess]

Hi Jonathan

Isn't any tradition that treats honest doubt or even despair as 'inappropriate' or 'selfish' or 'failure' not denying part of Life? Wouldn't that be like denying the slightly terrifying thrill of night?

Oh thank you - what a wonderful analogy!

Yes, ready for the final 3 questions.

Liz

[JonathanR]

Ok Liz,

IHere are the remainder of the questions.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience

6) Anything to add?


Jonathan.

[lizinprocess]

Ok Jonathan

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Being pushed and told to stop description and elaboration.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience

Decision, intention, free will, choice, control - all these come from a delusion of a self needing to assert its reality - to continue its personal myth.
I really don't know how to describe these without referring to a separate individual will and this doesn't exist. There is 'awareness' but even then that suggests reference to an illusionary individual state.
I cannot control anything, of that I am sure - things happening can be observed, the flow of events, of phenomena but an 'I' doesn't control them they just happen. Terminology and ideas such as conditionality and interdependence of all things could be referred to but I don't really know how it works and it doesn't matter.

Examples from experience - part of my Buddhist meditation practice involved setting intention, being disciplined. This continually fixed an idea of a self 'doing' spiritual practice. This was a delusion - there is no self - but this re-established the idea of a separate self 'doing' spirituality, trying to control it with all sorts of judgements accompanying this. This cannot happen as it separates recreating a self-myth which isn't real.

What am I responsible for? Nothing.

6) Anything to add?

No.

Love Liz

[JonathanR]

Thanks for these answers Liz. I'd like to share these with the other guides.

I may not have internet access tomorrow so you may not hear from me until Monday.


best wishes,

Jonathan.

[JonathanR]

Dear Liz,

I'm absolutely delighted to tell you that not only do the other guides not have further questions for you but there is unanmimous agreement that you have 'gone through the gateless gate'. This seemed very clear anyway but it is always nice that others agree.

What this means is that our conversation here is at an end. But there is a whole community of others who have also seen through 'self' who keep in touch online via Facebook or other parts of LU Forum I personally keep in touch with others this way. Some of them guide and some don't. Anyway, I can make sure you are 'joined' to the FB groups New Arrivals and Unleashed. From therre you will notice various other groups to join ( by request), including those to do with guiding,. It's all optional of course but I have to recommend New Arrivals and Unleashed groups becaise various interesting and often helpful conversations can be followed there.

The best thing to do is send me a private message via this forum, letting me know your Facebook name. I you don't have an FB account you could soon create one. Many do but you don't have to use your real name.


I'll look out for your message.

Love XXX Jonathan.