New contact introduction

[lizinprocess]

Hi Jonathan

Is there anything other than Now, this moment, Here? ....Ever?

Nothing has separate existence there is only now constantly unfolding. I see this clearly when space is there.

'Is there a self here now?
Has there ever been?'

The self is a fabrication constantly being created and referred to - it has no intrinsic existence. Is there a self here now? Only the 'fable' that comes and goes/rises and falls like all phenomena.

Does thought argue otherwise?

Yes - memories trigger strong emotions that can persuade the existence of separateness. Worries about others create beliefs - fixing others into separate selves. Creating fables.
Sitting and simply observing/looking breaks the spell. Remembering breaks the delusion.

If Now is real, how is this 'fragile'?

The fragility is that this insight can be lost - for a time. Thoughts come and emotions churn. I have a sense of circling around something. There is still some effort. The sense of fragility is also a fear of losing the glimpse/insight.

Liz

[JonathanR]

Hi Liz,

Is there anything other than Now, this moment, Here? ....Ever?


Nothing has separate existence there is only now constantly unfolding. I see this clearly when space is there.

It's very important that you avoid embellishing any of your answers.From now on, where possible, only give one word answers such as 'yes' or 'no'.

Is there a self here now?
Has there ever been?'

The self is a fabrication constantly being created and referred to - it has no intrinsic existence. Is there a self here now? Only the 'fable' that comes and goes/rises and falls like all phenomena.

Not that this is untrue but strip.out any unnecessary or decorative information ( strip.out the embellishments that come though thought) so as to be absolutely concise. Look at the question again. What would the simplest answer be? This is how we will.proceed from now on.

If Now is real, how is this 'fragile'?


The fragility is that this insight can be lost - for a time. Thoughts come and emotions churn. I have a sense of circling around something. There is still some effort. The sense of fragility is also a fear of losing the glimpse/insight.

No. Nothing can be 'lost'. Isn't that clear? And how could this be 'fragile'?

No. Thought imagines a 'thing', 'insight' that is 'fragile' and can be 'lost'. All piffle. No wonder there is a sense of 'something circling around! The circling of thoughts and thoughts about thoughts.

Return to simple direct experience. Is there a self in the sensation in this arm? Is there a self that sees? Is there a self that drives the car? Do 'I' choose, or make things happen?

Is there a 'Liz' reading this right now?


:-) best wishes,

Jonathan.

[lizinprocess]

hells bells Jonathan - (just recovering from a laughing fit)
Ok stripped down and no over thinking.

Is there a self here now?
Has there ever been?'

No

Return to simple direct experience. Is there a self in the sensation in this arm? Is there a self that sees? Is there a self that drives the car? Do 'I' choose, or make things happen?

Is there a 'Liz' reading this right now?

No, no, no and no

Appreciate the clobbering...
Love Liz

[JonathanR]

Ok Liz :-)

Since there is no 'I', no 'Liz' reading this right now, how are these words 'seen'?

What 'sees words'?

(Concise reply please ;-)


Jonathan

[lizinprocess]

Hi Jonathan

Since there is no 'I', no 'Liz' reading this right now, how are these words 'seen'?

What 'sees words'?

A process, a presence, no self.

Liz

[JonathanR]

Hi Liz,

You have come up with three different answers.

Please try again. Look...LOOK (don't think)... for what 'sees words'.(or hears sounds,.or feels textures or even thinks thoughts)

Is it findable?
Can it be named?
Is it knowable?



Love.

Jonathan.

[lizinprocess]

Life

Love Liz

[JonathanR]

Hi Liz,

Now let me know,. Is 'Life' better than the combined three answers prviously given? If so, why?
If not, why not?

At this stage do you have any questions or any doubts?



J.

[lizinprocess]

'Life" is the better choice of words trying to describe the indescribable.
The other words - presence/process/non-self - have an oblique reference to an idea of something either there or not there. There is no thing.
I have no doubt about that.

Questions - habitual reactions.....fear of dogs. Just seeing these but today it disturbed.

Liz

[JonathanR]

Ok Liz,

Thank you. Yes. 'Life' is better. For one thing 'Life' embraces the non- dual reality where 'seer, seen and seeing are not separate. But by looking at immediate experience to notice what is actually going on, (rather than thoughts, for 'answers about' what's going on) 'I don't know' would have been fine too.

Is there a line to be found, a division or break of any kind between actual sensations and 'the world'?

Yup. Fear of dogs. It happens :-( I'll tryto post later about that.

Best wishes,

Jonathan.

[lizinprocess]

Hi Jonathan

'I don't know' was going to be included along with 'Life' but didn't want to send 2 words.
I really don't know but it doesn't matter at all.

Is there a line to be found, a division or break of any kind between actual sensations and 'the world'?

No.

Liz

[JonathanR]

Ok Liz, understood. I did rather press you not to use many words.or go be precise :-) Do you understand why?

About fear of dogs. Has there been an assumption that such fear reactions would disappear of be 'transcended' by seeing through the illusion of 'self'?

Many habitual thoughts and feelings will continue ( or at least appear to do so) after passing through the gateless gate. What changes is the perspective on such thoughts and feelings, which are no longer automatically assumed to be 'mine' or 'me'. That assumption is seen through. Passing through the gate is the beginning of this and it may sometimes seem that 'nothing has been realised' or 'how can negative emotions still be felt?' But then it is noticed that no 'self' 'has' these thoughts or feelings...they just happen, like patterns. And the thoughts themselves are 'without owner'.

Even fear of dogs may go eventually but complete wiping out of fear, hate, greed etc at this stage was never suggested.

Does this make sense?

You have said you are Buddhist, Liz ( at least I think you did). It's worth exploring beliefs there. For examole, Do you have a view about Karma? If so, how does Karma 'fit' with what we have been discussing? Also 'cause and effect'. 'This being that becomes? What is your view on that?


Best wishes,

Jonathan.

[lizinprocess]

Hi Jonathan

Thank you for the push - the explicit request to stop description and elaboration pointed to the tendency to over think and not always take notice and listen to the first response to something. It certainly made a difference :-)

And yes - patterning arises and will not just disappear - that is seen.

Do you have a view about Karma? If so, how does Karma 'fit' with what we have been discussing? Also 'cause and effect'. 'This being that becomes? What is your view on that?

The law of conditionality - pratitya-samutpada - flows on but cannot be fixed as life is like Indras Net - all things interdependent and no one thing controlling or separate. Karma just means action and is part of conditionality - it often gets confused with ideas of a self being rewarded or punished. There is no self to experience karma - I see this. There are many confused and conflicting teachings about karma - early on I made the choice not to get into these potential entanglements, keeping the spiritual search and remaining open. I am reviewing beliefs now really seeing the value of direct pointing that cuts through cultural, traditional and group norms to reach truth.
The Buddhist community I belong to - I work for a centre - is lovely, a kind, gentle, community who welcomes all types and I value that, though not always going along with ideas. There is some concern there about what I am doing here but this work is essential - it has to be done.

Too many words???
Love Liz

[lizinprocess]

On reflection - yes too many words.
The label 'Buddhist' - being part of a spiritual community which doesn't have answers just ways of being together.

Liz

[JonathanR]

Hi Liz,

Thanks for your post. Karma is not a problem then. Good:-)

Do you feel ready to tackle answering the six questions again? If not we can address any remaining concerns you may have.

Best wishes,

Jonathan.