Pea seeking Smudge

[smudge]

there is just narration that arises in response to an action or event (even a mental event such as a thought)

Narration is thought. One thing, take a look, is this true?

Haven't meditated yet today

Looking can happen anytime, just a flash of seeing this will be enough. Once Santa was seen to not be real was he ever believed to be real again? When I ask you to report your direct experience, I don't mean for you to go into some special mental state. I simply mean to report what you're experiencing directly, right here and now.

I was aware that there are still decisions that need to be made - down to the simple "Do I put one foot in front of the other for the next step

Really? or does it just happen, does a decision need to be made to breath or pump blood round the body or does it just happen?

Lets keep looking at decisions:
Think of a 2-digit number. Why did you choose that number? Why not the previous number, or the next one? Do you know? If not, why don’t you know? if you are the thinker of thoughts then you must know how you create them. Repeat the experiment as necessary, Keep trying again and again to do something other than what occurs and watch those patterns of confusion and pretending to be in control that arise and you will learn something.

Nice work going on here xx

[Pea]

I don't mean for you to go into some special mental state.

Don’t worry – I don’t feel a need for a special mental state – believe me, they are not the bedrock of my meditation practice! It’s just a quieter space seems helpful sometimes, to pick out what is actually going on in DE.

And YES, narration IS just thought, isn’t it!?!
I get what you mean about decisions not being needed for breathing, pumping blood – or putting one foot in front of the other. But there are moments, say on a long run, where a thought arises about how tired I am, and the potential for a possible decision seems to arise about how to respond…

Really? or does it just happen, does a decision need to be made to breath or pump blood round the body or does it just happen?

… are you suggesting that, in all circumstances, decisions aren’t actually made – that things just happen? Is it just “magical thinking” on my behalf that I think that the big decisions I think I make in life (whether to apply for a new job, get married, move house) are somehow different to choosing a 2 digit number?
Because what I notice in DE about the outcome in terms of which 2 digit number, or vegetable, or colour is selected seems to just be it’s another thought – but it also seems entirely inconsequential in terms of what the outcome is… there’s no particular emotional tone to it.

Do you know? If not, why don’t you know? if you are the thinker of thoughts then you must know how you create them.

Whereas, choose a vegetable (because then you are going to eat it) – suddenly an emotional component appears to exist to the choice in DE… because now I would definitely not say “celery”! It seems to become more volitional.

I noticed it a few minutes ago, sitting here on my bed eating a plum – I finished eating – what to do with the stone? There is no bin – put it on the cabinet/bedclothes? (messy), out the window? (seems “wrong”) go downstairs to the kitchen (oh that is such a long way!) It’s like the point of choosing gets appropriated by thoughts and judgements and “me”.

[smudge]

But there are moments, say on a long run, where a thought arises about how tired I am, and the potential for a possible decision seems to arise about how to respond…

Story about decisions is a narrative about whats already just happening (as is story about "I" am tired..tiredness is just happening) look to see if this is true. Also look to see if YOU are doing it or if its just happening.

are you suggesting that, in all circumstances, decisions aren’t actually made – that things just happen? Is it just “magical thinking” on my behalf that I think that the big decisions I think I make in life (whether to apply for a new job, get married, move house) are somehow different to choosing a 2 digit number?

Yep, remember a big decision you have made, could it have been any different given those exact circumstances at that time?

Whereas, choose a vegetable (because then you are going to eat it) – suddenly an emotional component appears to exist to the choice in DE… because now I would definitely not say “celery”! It seems to become more volitional.

OK, so feeling and volition do a dance and an action happens (or not). Is there a Pea doing the feelings and actions or do they dance and story (or conceptualisation) claims it?....so theres a story about whats already going on.

I noticed it a few minutes ago, sitting here on my bed eating a plum – I finished eating – what to do with the stone? There is no bin – put it on the cabinet/bedclothes? (messy), out the window? (seems “wrong”) go downstairs to the kitchen (oh that is such a long way!) It’s like the point of choosing gets appropriated by thoughts and judgements and “me”.

Great example, so feelings (not knowing, wrong) happened and I assume the stone ended up somewhere so an volition happened and alongside all this dance of volition and feeling is a story of I'm deciding etc..that about it?? If not describe the I doing it all.

So lets make sure we have exhausted every avenue of searching for a real existing self in thought, is there one other than the main character in the story?? then we will look elsewhere to check its not hiding somewhere else, seems like theres a belief if emotion is involved thats evidence of a you, we can look but lets finish thought first :-)

[Pea]

Things are shifting...

remember a big decision you have made, could it have been any different given those exact circumstances at that time?

I brought to mind when I was looking to change jobs a few years ago - I spent quite some time working with a friend who is a life coach, looking at different options that were available, weighing them up and using that to help make a decision. so it felt like it was really, definitely, clearly ME that that made one decision and not another...
But actually,

could it have been any different given those exact circumstances at that time?

...no, a particular set of conditions come together (including the conditions of those meetings and discussions) and that just meant it happened in that way as a result...

I think that it was also bothering me that this line of thinking somehow means that there can be no ethically skilful choices... but maybe no again, chains of conditions and events will mean that something just happens - and that may then be labelled as "something skilful that I did"... don't feel I quite have the words to explain but I guess it's akin to

feeling and volition do a dance and an action happens (or not)

So lets make sure we have exhausted every avenue of searching for a real existing self in thought

Memories? Does that fit into this thread of searching? There seems to be something in there... something about the continuity of experiences of 'this being' - I remember things that happened to me when I was 7 years old, 18... etc "so that must constitute something of 'me'"... and other people recognise something of that continuity of Pea (even if they haven't seen me for 20 odd years) It doesn't feel as strong as it did, but it seems worth a look

[smudge]

...no, a particular set of conditions come together (including the conditions of those meetings and discussions) and that just meant it happened in that way as a result...

nice and clear.

I think that it was also bothering me that this line of thinking somehow means that there can be no ethically skilful choices...... I remember things that happened to me when I was 7 years old, 18./quote]

Both are stories now are they not? stories about the past and the future.
SO, right NOW, what is the word "I" in the quote above actually pointing to in DE??

[Pea]

Stood in the kitchen making sweetcorn fritters and a favourite old song played on the iPod. DE? Took me to lots of memories - Glastonbury 1994, my marriage, when the band last performed together - and all the poignant emotions that go with that particular track.
- and also thinking about going to see the band play in a couple of months...

Both are stories now are they not? stories about the past and the future.

Yes! Memories are just thoughts - and the story about the upcoming concert was also thoughts. No 'me' ...

SO, right NOW, what is the word "I" in the quote above actually pointing to in DE??

Ok let's look at it.

I remember things

- thoughts arise (images, sounds, narration) based on events that occurred in the past, and have been stored in memory. And sensations arise - pleasant and painful - emotions from there all mixed up with the memories.

[Pea]

Story about decisions is a narrative about whats already just happening (as is story about "I" am tired..tiredness is just happening) look to see if this is true. Also look to see if YOU are doing it or if its just happening.

Able to see in DE now that when running, physical tiredness happens - then thoughts about this, which become "I am tired" ... and then emotions about it and ideas about decisions - change route/slow down etc. All hijacks the original sensation...

[smudge]

Brilliant, it's kicking in.
So deeper, can a thought think? Can a thought DO anything?
BTW: I'm at the convention till Sunday so won't be able to use quote as I'm on my phone only.

[Pea]

can a thought think?

No, it seems not. Just thinking about that statement - what happens? The thought triggers other thoughts but it doesn't seem to cause the thoughts or think the other thoughts - it's just a thought - some of the following thoughts are clearly related and others not - sometimes there is distraction - and there is some quality of attention so that I'm able to come back to that thought or hold the ideas or 'train of thought' - and after a while there's an awareness of an emotional tone of confusion from trying to work with it - which is felt in the body.

Can a thought DO anything?

Thoughts sometimes seem to cause emotions to arise - but it doesn't seem that the thought is DOING anything. The thought happens and then there is some emotional response linking with whatever sensation arises in the body.

And a thought doesn't DO anything physically - I can think "Move my hand" - and then either it moves or it doesn't. What causes it to not move? Another thought? Before or after the thought to move it? Now, what is it that causes the hand not to move, when the thought says 'move'? What is going "haha - I'm going to be cantankerous!"

And sometimes it moves when the 'self' is not there - to brush a piece of hair from my eye, scratch my nose - and I didn't consciously think 'move the piece of hair/scratch my nose'

[smudge]

Brilliant looking. Clear!

Again, when the word I is used like 'I can think..or I can't think' what is that word ACTUALLY pointing to. The word tree is a word that points to a big leafy thing for example, so what is that short word I pointing to in DE?

[Pea]

In DE, when “I am typing” - ‘I’ is actually just a shorthand for this person here, where ‘typing’ is currently taking place. Or where thinking is happening, and thinking as narration, alongside the typing. Thinking happens, which forms the words in the sentence that are then narrated back over the top of the thinking, whilst the fingers type the words.

The word tree is a word that points to a big leafy thing

– in DE it seems to be an experience of something with just a bunch of cues of other labels – big, leafy, trunk etc. that point to a shorthand label of “tree” – as opposed to a bush or a plant. And when does the sapling become the tree, or the tree become logs or firewood? Concepts that help classify things and make sense of the world.
The challenge seems to be that, in labelling ‘I’, there comes to be a fixed identification – this is ME. How to re-recognise the flow whilst still using those words?

[smudge]

Lots of interesting 'thoughts'.
So when you say 'shorthand for this person' what in DE is 'this person'?
Actually look and report back what is found, if anything. It's like the difference between watching a film about Paris and actually going there. One is vivid experience the other is story about it. Keep it simple. X

[Pea]

Yeah – ok. I see. DE not thoughts about it… : )

what is that word ACTUALLY pointing to?

I am typing. I am thinking. What is actually happening? What is the actual experience?

Feeling pressure of fingers against keys. Thinking. Which keys? Just muscle memory on the whole – fairly automatic. Typing. Spelling out word in head. Looking at fingers. Looking at screen. Stopping. Thinking. Breathing. Noticing frustration – sensations? Stomach. Thinking about what on earth I am doing. Itch in my left leg. Taking attention to that… observing the change in it, arising and then passing. Noticing thoughts arising and popping in those moments.
Where was ‘I’ in all of this? It doesn’t seem able to be found directly – but still it persists. It’s there in “what on earth am I doing?” So this relentless pressing, questioning causes ‘me’ to feel frustrated, annoyed, confused… but what is feeling that? Trying to look for the self in the emotions that are coming up…

[Pea]

So when you say 'shorthand for this person' what in DE is 'this person'?

Experience of ‘this person’ doing Parkrun this morning. There was the body moving, feeling the cold air in my lungs, bang of feet on ground, impact up through the legs – strong sense of the visual – blue skies, other runners’ bright clothes, moving around me. Pleasant and unpleasant feelings translating into emotions e.g enjoying the visual scene, the movement – noticing the tiredness in my leg muscles – thoughts arising from there – questioning my pace, will I be too tired to finish fast, get a PB. So the self seemed to pop up more strongly in that emotion/thought moment – contact, feeling, craving, clinging, becoming…

[smudge]

Let me be clear on your answers to 'what the word I points to'. It sounds like body, emotions/feeling and thoughts are the main answers. Is that right?

So the feeling is 'confusion and frustration' and there's a narrative going on claiming it. Lets look at these feelings. So tune into the sensations, describe them best you can, and then from DE answer, is there a feeler or just feelings(sensations).