At the front door, waiting for you
Re: At the front door, waiting for you
Can you re-answer the 6 questions please, just so the guiding team has a clearer picture? You can fill in what you've before, but it would be good to answer from where you are.
Re: At the front door, waiting for you
1)Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
2)Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
3)How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
4)What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
5)Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.
6)Anything to add?
2)Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
3)How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
4)What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
5)Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.
6)Anything to add?
Re: At the front door, waiting for you
1: No, there is nothing separate and there never was.
2: Intially, we are all born without the idea of separate selves. We grow up and as we learn interaction with the already established selves, we come to believe into our own separation. We learn that things have labels and so do people. The idea of a self then gets a hold of us in the form that conscious thinking in language starts to revolve around this learned self, in the form of "I am this..", "I should do that..". It is further reinforced by seeing other people as other selves, i.e. separate from one's own self, and comparing to them.
3: I can't really say how it feels, maybe it is best described as "empty" or "cleaned up" or something like that. A definite difference is that there is basically no "I"-thinking left and more and more time is without any substantial thought at all. Concentration is also far easier because it is not always interrupted by some story.
4: I don't know exactly. The last thing that made me realize that I am actually convinced of no-self was the afore mentioned moment, where the wish to "have the self back" appeared but it then became obvious that this is impossible. I don't think there was any looking in that moment, just realizing that the looking had happened and that the result was already well accepted (a fact which was previously not so clear due to doubts). According to @kenbok the seeing had happened some time before.
5: No, there is no self doing anything. Previously, during the beginnings of this inquiry, it would be that something happened (a hand is lifted, a fist made, etc.) and then a thought would describe it as the action of an "I". The continued belief in this kind of thinking kept the pattern alive and gave the impression of an actual self doing things. Now, it is just that things happen and most of the time no comment is required. Sensations come and go, nothing is ever tangible and that alone is enough for the lack of an actual, persistent self.
6: I'd like to thank you again.
2: Intially, we are all born without the idea of separate selves. We grow up and as we learn interaction with the already established selves, we come to believe into our own separation. We learn that things have labels and so do people. The idea of a self then gets a hold of us in the form that conscious thinking in language starts to revolve around this learned self, in the form of "I am this..", "I should do that..". It is further reinforced by seeing other people as other selves, i.e. separate from one's own self, and comparing to them.
3: I can't really say how it feels, maybe it is best described as "empty" or "cleaned up" or something like that. A definite difference is that there is basically no "I"-thinking left and more and more time is without any substantial thought at all. Concentration is also far easier because it is not always interrupted by some story.
4: I don't know exactly. The last thing that made me realize that I am actually convinced of no-self was the afore mentioned moment, where the wish to "have the self back" appeared but it then became obvious that this is impossible. I don't think there was any looking in that moment, just realizing that the looking had happened and that the result was already well accepted (a fact which was previously not so clear due to doubts). According to @kenbok the seeing had happened some time before.
5: No, there is no self doing anything. Previously, during the beginnings of this inquiry, it would be that something happened (a hand is lifted, a fist made, etc.) and then a thought would describe it as the action of an "I". The continued belief in this kind of thinking kept the pattern alive and gave the impression of an actual self doing things. Now, it is just that things happen and most of the time no comment is required. Sensations come and go, nothing is ever tangible and that alone is enough for the lack of an actual, persistent self.
6: I'd like to thank you again.
Re: At the front door, waiting for you
I am still around. Sorry for not adhering to the one post per day rule.
Re: At the front door, waiting for you
Thanks B. The initial feedback from the guides is that there is still a story of no-self, as opposed to a real seeing of no-self. They cite your answer to 2. I have been thinking that a change of guide might be good and am trying to make that happen. K
Re: At the front door, waiting for you
Hi there Benedikt
I've been chatting with Kenbok and happy to take over if you are OK with that.
I will be able to look at the conversation and give a full reply tomorrow.
Xain ♥
I've been chatting with Kenbok and happy to take over if you are OK with that.
I will be able to look at the conversation and give a full reply tomorrow.
Xain ♥
Re: At the front door, waiting for you
Hi Xian, I am totally OK with that. Looking forward to hear from you soon.
Re: At the front door, waiting for you
Hi Benedikt
Some of what I may ask may cover old ground, so please forgive me if this happens. It may be important, though, for me to assist you.
I will be taking a slightly different approach from Ken, and I would like you if possible to answer my questions, rather from what you believe is the correct answer, to answer from experience. Also, please use normal every-day language and ideas.
This will form the major basis of the discussion from now on.
Right now, what do you see? What do you hear?
Xain ♥
Some of what I may ask may cover old ground, so please forgive me if this happens. It may be important, though, for me to assist you.
I will be taking a slightly different approach from Ken, and I would like you if possible to answer my questions, rather from what you believe is the correct answer, to answer from experience. Also, please use normal every-day language and ideas.
This will form the major basis of the discussion from now on.
Right now, what do you see? What do you hear?
Xain ♥
Re: At the front door, waiting for you
Sure, lets do what you think is best.
I see the screen of my computer and parts of the office environment around it.Right now, what do you see?
I hear people move in the office, someone sneezes his nose, I hear my typing.What do you hear?
Re: At the front door, waiting for you
Good.
Now it is very tempting to answer from thinking - In these next experiments try to answer from what you find in your immediate experience. In other words, searching for something.
Also, please do not be tempted to 'give me the right answer', or 'give the answer you think I want to hear' - Just give me an honest answer from what can be found.
As you sit there, you find in your experience a computer screen - Ok.
Now, tell me . . .
What can you find that is seeing the screen?
Similarly, as you sit there and listen to the sounds in the office, examine the experience directly.
What can be found that is doing the hearing?
As a further examination, what is the distance between 'you' and the computer screen?
What is the distance between you and the sounds being heard?
Try not to think or analyse - Go directly to the experience and try to find the answer.
What is found?
Xain ♥
Now it is very tempting to answer from thinking - In these next experiments try to answer from what you find in your immediate experience. In other words, searching for something.
Also, please do not be tempted to 'give me the right answer', or 'give the answer you think I want to hear' - Just give me an honest answer from what can be found.
As you sit there, you find in your experience a computer screen - Ok.
Now, tell me . . .
What can you find that is seeing the screen?
Similarly, as you sit there and listen to the sounds in the office, examine the experience directly.
What can be found that is doing the hearing?
As a further examination, what is the distance between 'you' and the computer screen?
What is the distance between you and the sounds being heard?
Try not to think or analyse - Go directly to the experience and try to find the answer.
What is found?
Xain ♥
Re: At the front door, waiting for you
There is nothing.What can you find that is seeing the screen?
Similarly, there is sound but nothing that indicates a hearer.What can be found that is doing the hearing?
Since there is nothing that indicates a 'me', I cannot give you any distance.As a further examination, what is the distance between 'you' and the computer screen?
Re: At the front door, waiting for you
Ok.
Can we agree here, then, that in the statement 'I see', the 'I' is just a thought about what is happening.
When experience is examined, there isn't an 'I' doing it - There is just 'seeing'.
Similarly with hearing, 'I hear', there is no actual 'I' to be found that does the hearing.
That 'I', also, is just an idea a thought.
A seperate 'thing' cannot be found in seeing or hearing. Both 'just happen'.
Does that seem OK so far?
Try feeling next.
Do this experiment.
Reach out and touch the computer screen.
Does the hand feel the computer screen?
Closely examine the experience - Close your eyes if needed.
What is experienced? What is found?
Xain ♥
Can we agree here, then, that in the statement 'I see', the 'I' is just a thought about what is happening.
When experience is examined, there isn't an 'I' doing it - There is just 'seeing'.
Similarly with hearing, 'I hear', there is no actual 'I' to be found that does the hearing.
That 'I', also, is just an idea a thought.
A seperate 'thing' cannot be found in seeing or hearing. Both 'just happen'.
Does that seem OK so far?
Try feeling next.
Do this experiment.
Reach out and touch the computer screen.
Does the hand feel the computer screen?
Closely examine the experience - Close your eyes if needed.
What is experienced? What is found?
Xain ♥
Re: At the front door, waiting for you
Yes.Does that seem OK so far?
I don't know (see below).Does the hand feel the computer screen?
There is a feeling of pressure, but the feeling itself has no location.What is experienced? What is found?
Re: At the front door, waiting for you
Good.
'Feeling' is a particularly tricky one to establish as it is very 'close to home' in relation to the body.
What can we say here then?
Examnie the feeling - Are there two clear seperate parts to the sensation of 'feeling', what is being felt, and what is doing it?
Is the body actively performing a function of 'feeling'?
Is the hand 'doing' the feeling?
Or is there just 'feeling'? A sensation?
What is your opinion of the sentence 'I feel the computer screen', in light of what you are finding so far?
Xain ♥
'Feeling' is a particularly tricky one to establish as it is very 'close to home' in relation to the body.
What can we say here then?
Examnie the feeling - Are there two clear seperate parts to the sensation of 'feeling', what is being felt, and what is doing it?
Is the body actively performing a function of 'feeling'?
Is the hand 'doing' the feeling?
Or is there just 'feeling'? A sensation?
What is your opinion of the sentence 'I feel the computer screen', in light of what you are finding so far?
Xain ♥
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