Looking for a guide

[chris lewis]

Hi Chris,

Lol at the dog with the blanket - have one here that's a bit like that :-)

No there doesn't seem to be. Even when i would like to recreate the event, such as my trip to the mountains in Western Canada. I took a bunch of pictures to remind me of what the experience was like, and even a few videos, to make it seem more "real" to the future "me". But obviously nothing like the experience. I can barely remember 99.999% of the actual experience, once you take everything into account.

Imagery of future experiences is even more unreliable, even immediate future. A dog just walked into the room. Now it's humping a blanket. That wasn't part of "my" future plans! It just happens, now, then it becomes past, and I can't even remember it properly, even if its a few seconds ago. What will you say in response? I don't know.

Yes the past is hard to re-live even when we want to, even when we look at a photo or video - it's either a screen made of pixels or piece of paper, the mind does a good job of filling in the gaps but it's never the real thing. Yes who knows what the future holds - the big question is: does it really exist in any way shape or form, same with the past.

Look now - is there anything REAL that you can access that is not directly in your experience right now? Compare things that are real with things that are imagined. This includes past and future 'ideas' and even things which your mind tells you are real such as a tree in a nearby garden or park, if you think of something like this tree, again imagine it exactly as it's real right now, all the details, colours, shapes, textures, perhaps a bird perched on a branch - then go to see it and compare the experience.

So the task now is to look at what is in your direct experience now and perceived through the senses and ask yourself if we can consider this to be real and true - undeniable in the way that if you were holding a real apple, you would simply KNOW you were holding a real apple (despite the mind perhaps considering quantum physics etc...)

Also do the same with any thing which is held in thought - imagine anything which is not experienced directly and like in the exercise above - ask ourselves if this thought content is REAL and undeniable or simply a thought ABOUT something which we consider to be real.

This is an important part of the investigation so please be as quick or take as long as you need to respond.

Also can you respond with your thoughts on the following statement eg: true or false:

Thoughts are real (they happen), but thought content is not.

Thanks

Mike

I think I understand what you are getting at a little better, but am not sure. I have tried your experiment with a couple of objects, like a park bench and a drink. They are either there, being experienced in one way or another, or they are not. In essence, when they are not being experienced in some way, they practically vanish. I have tried looking at, then turning away, from a few other objects. One second there, next second, gone.

There is not 100% proof they anything actually exists when we are not experiencing it. We were taught that they exist, I think. I have a lot of thoughts right now telling me I am just being philosophical, and this could be true. But there is a part of me that actually kind of wonders whether I should simply take it for granted that something exists when I am not experiencing it.

Thoughts seem real in the sense that they are hooked up to "me", this body or mind that I identify with. They seem to , in some way, create some sort of virtual reality, made up of images, beliefs, opinions. Kind of like a blaring talk radio show, which drowns out actually experiencing things in the present properly. I admit I don't exactly know where the thoughts are coming from. It tells me "the brain" or something like that, and I don't completely believe it, but It's as good an answer as any I guess. I guess thoughts are real, I don't know to be honest.

I can see that thought content is often false. I look at some beliefs I had, say 10 years ago, and I can see that they seem to be false,even ridiculous. But I think you are getting at something deeper here. Maybe the fact that so much thought content, even when doing the experiments.

[chris lewis]

Hi Chris,

Lol at the dog with the blanket - have one here that's a bit like that :-)

No there doesn't seem to be. Even when i would like to recreate the event, such as my trip to the mountains in Western Canada. I took a bunch of pictures to remind me of what the experience was like, and even a few videos, to make it seem more "real" to the future "me". But obviously nothing like the experience. I can barely remember 99.999% of the actual experience, once you take everything into account.

Imagery of future experiences is even more unreliable, even immediate future. A dog just walked into the room. Now it's humping a blanket. That wasn't part of "my" future plans! It just happens, now, then it becomes past, and I can't even remember it properly, even if its a few seconds ago. What will you say in response? I don't know.

Yes the past is hard to re-live even when we want to, even when we look at a photo or video - it's either a screen made of pixels or piece of paper, the mind does a good job of filling in the gaps but it's never the real thing. Yes who knows what the future holds - the big question is: does it really exist in any way shape or form, same with the past.

Look now - is there anything REAL that you can access that is not directly in your experience right now? Compare things that are real with things that are imagined. This includes past and future 'ideas' and even things which your mind tells you are real such as a tree in a nearby garden or park, if you think of something like this tree, again imagine it exactly as it's real right now, all the details, colours, shapes, textures, perhaps a bird perched on a branch - then go to see it and compare the experience.

So the task now is to look at what is in your direct experience now and perceived through the senses and ask yourself if we can consider this to be real and true - undeniable in the way that if you were holding a real apple, you would simply KNOW you were holding a real apple (despite the mind perhaps considering quantum physics etc...)

Also do the same with any thing which is held in thought - imagine anything which is not experienced directly and like in the exercise above - ask ourselves if this thought content is REAL and undeniable or simply a thought ABOUT something which we consider to be real.

This is an important part of the investigation so please be as quick or take as long as you need to respond.

Also can you respond with your thoughts on the following statement eg: true or false:

Thoughts are real (they happen), but thought content is not.

Thanks

Mike

I think I understand what you are getting at a little better, but am not sure. I have tried your experiment with a couple of objects, like a park bench and a drink. They are either there, being experienced in one way or another, or they are not. In essence, when they are not being experienced in some way, they practically vanish. I have tried looking at, then turning away, from a few other objects. One second there, next second, gone.

There is not 100% proof they anything actually exists when we are not experiencing it. We were taught that they exist, I think. I have a lot of thoughts right now telling me I am just being philosophical, and this could be true. But there is a part of me that actually kind of wonders whether I should simply take it for granted that something exists when I am not experiencing it.

Thoughts seem real in the sense that they are hooked up to "me", this body or mind that I identify with. They seem to , in some way, create some sort of virtual reality, made up of images, beliefs, opinions. Kind of like a blaring talk radio show, which drowns out actually experiencing things in the present properly. I admit I don't exactly know where the thoughts are coming from. It tells me "the brain" or something like that, and I don't completely believe it, but It's as good an answer as any I guess. I guess thoughts are real, I don't know to be honest.

I can see that thought content is often false. I look at some beliefs I had, say 10 years ago, and I can see that they seem to be false,even ridiculous. But I think you are getting at something deeper here. Maybe the fact that so much thought content, even when doing the experiments.

I just posted now so that I wouldn't time out. I will continue.

...even when doing the experiments is false, along with the related imagery. It does seem that thought content can be useful at times, such as when doing practical things. But that does not mean the same thing as REAL i understand. It can help you access something which is real, but not actually real itself.

I am noticing a lot of mental strain and confusion right now. I seem to get that a lot when I am trying to find the truth about something. My mind goes into "confusion" mode, when I am trying to understand what is actually going on with it!

[eyeman]

Hi Chris :-)

I think I understand what you are getting at a little better, but am not sure. I have tried your experiment with a couple of objects, like a park bench and a drink. They are either there, being experienced in one way or another, or they are not. In essence, when they are not being experienced in some way, they practically vanish. I have tried looking at, then turning away, from a few other objects. One second there, next second, gone.

Yes, ultimately if there's no direct experience of something right here and now, then anything we might think we are experiencing about it can only be thought content.

Questions: If thinking about something from the past or future - when exactly does that thought about it take place? Is the thought happening in the past, present or future? Is it possible to experience a thought happening in any time-frame other than right now?

There is not 100% proof they anything actually exists when we are not experiencing it. We were taught that they exist, I think. I have a lot of thoughts right now telling me I am just being philosophical, and this could be true. But there is a part of me that actually kind of wonders whether I should simply take it for granted that something exists when I am not experiencing it.

Whether the 'world' exists outside of thoughts is a slightly different are of investigation which can be looked into once the 'I' thought has been investigated fully but we won't look at this during this dialogue. Right now it would only be speculation and theorising. The important thing is that you're seeing for yourself that thought content cannot be seen as true - it may point vaguely towards the truth but the truth cannot be found in thoughts or thinking. This is quite a shocker at first! It explains why you may have read many books and gained plenty of knowledge about insight into 'no-self' and you may totally 'get it' and understand it - however, what difference does it really make knowing something intellectually? Does it effect suffering on a day to day basis? Mikes experience is that while it's all very interesting and often fascinating - that path can last many many years without any true insight. All that is achieved by learning - is another 'idea' or 'concept'.

Thoughts seem real in the sense that they are hooked up to "me", this body or mind that I identify with. They seem to , in some way, create some sort of virtual reality, made up of images, beliefs, opinions. Kind of like a blaring talk radio show, which drowns out actually experiencing things in the present properly. I admit I don't exactly know where the thoughts are coming from. It tells me "the brain" or something like that, and I don't completely believe it, but It's as good an answer as any I guess. I guess thoughts are real, I don't know to be honest.

This is great Chris - you're not just blindly accepting thoughts which arise - you're seeing that thought content contains no direct reality at all, any answer you write here, if based on thoughts, concepts or ideas is only ever speculation but when reporting as best you can from what is truly and undeniably happening right here and right now, this you can be sure is the truth. If it is not experienced or accessable directly right now, then it makes sense that it's simply a thought 'about' something and cannot be seen as reliable.

I can see that thought content is often false. I look at some beliefs I had, say 10 years ago, and I can see that they seem to be false, even ridiculous. But I think you are getting at something deeper here. Maybe the fact that so much thought content, even when doing the experiments.

These experiments are showing you first hand what's actually happening and what's undeniable - it's a process of gradually separating Reality from Delusion.

...even when doing the experiments is false, along with the related imagery. It does seem that thought content can be useful at times, such as when doing practical things. But that does not mean the same thing as REAL i understand. It can help you access something which is real, but not actually real itself.

Yes, thinking can be useful especially when working out virtual outcomes etc... There's no problem in having thoughts (try stopping them!) The problem comes from believing them to be our Reality.

I am noticing a lot of mental strain and confusion right now. I seem to get that a lot when I am trying to find the truth about something. My mind goes into "confusion" mode, when I am trying to understand what is actually going on with it!

Yes you've nailed it here Chris - trying to get to the truth using the mind is exhausting, the ego mind will use a huge amount of energy protecting the belief that the ideas you have are real - remember, one of those ideas is that 'you', 'Chris', the 'Self' really does exist as the idea or concept tells you it exists.

Please refer back to this anytime the mind begins to interrupt the simple reality of right now in Direct Experience - you are likely to see with clarity, then the mind will create a story around it in an effort to make you doubt the truth.

Now let's move onto the Self as the 'controller' of Chris' life. After all, if you exist, then you must be in control right?

The exercise here is to walk about and move your body randomly and quickly - wave your arms, move your legs etc... Look closely at what's happening while you do this. Is there 'choices' being made about what movements are made or do they simply happen? Is Chris controlling this movement (walking is another good example) or is it just happening and there is experience of it happening?

Mike

[chris lewis]

Hi Chris :-)

I think I understand what you are getting at a little better, but am not sure. I have tried your experiment with a couple of objects, like a park bench and a drink. They are either there, being experienced in one way or another, or they are not. In essence, when they are not being experienced in some way, they practically vanish. I have tried looking at, then turning away, from a few other objects. One second there, next second, gone.

Yes, ultimately if there's no direct experience of something right here and now, then anything we might think we are experiencing about it can only be thought content.

Questions: If thinking about something from the past or future - when exactly does that thought about it take place? Is the thought happening in the past, present or future? Is it possible to experience a thought happening in any time-frame other than right now?

There is not 100% proof they anything actually exists when we are not experiencing it. We were taught that they exist, I think. I have a lot of thoughts right now telling me I am just being philosophical, and this could be true. But there is a part of me that actually kind of wonders whether I should simply take it for granted that something exists when I am not experiencing it.

Whether the 'world' exists outside of thoughts is a slightly different are of investigation which can be looked into once the 'I' thought has been investigated fully but we won't look at this during this dialogue. Right now it would only be speculation and theorising. The important thing is that you're seeing for yourself that thought content cannot be seen as true - it may point vaguely towards the truth but the truth cannot be found in thoughts or thinking. This is quite a shocker at first! It explains why you may have read many books and gained plenty of knowledge about insight into 'no-self' and you may totally 'get it' and understand it - however, what difference does it really make knowing something intellectually? Does it effect suffering on a day to day basis? Mikes experience is that while it's all very interesting and often fascinating - that path can last many many years without any true insight. All that is achieved by learning - is another 'idea' or 'concept'.

Thoughts seem real in the sense that they are hooked up to "me", this body or mind that I identify with. They seem to , in some way, create some sort of virtual reality, made up of images, beliefs, opinions. Kind of like a blaring talk radio show, which drowns out actually experiencing things in the present properly. I admit I don't exactly know where the thoughts are coming from. It tells me "the brain" or something like that, and I don't completely believe it, but It's as good an answer as any I guess. I guess thoughts are real, I don't know to be honest.

This is great Chris - you're not just blindly accepting thoughts which arise - you're seeing that thought content contains no direct reality at all, any answer you write here, if based on thoughts, concepts or ideas is only ever speculation but when reporting as best you can from what is truly and undeniably happening right here and right now, this you can be sure is the truth. If it is not experienced or accessable directly right now, then it makes sense that it's simply a thought 'about' something and cannot be seen as reliable.

I can see that thought content is often false. I look at some beliefs I had, say 10 years ago, and I can see that they seem to be false, even ridiculous. But I think you are getting at something deeper here. Maybe the fact that so much thought content, even when doing the experiments.

These experiments are showing you first hand what's actually happening and what's undeniable - it's a process of gradually separating Reality from Delusion.

...even when doing the experiments is false, along with the related imagery. It does seem that thought content can be useful at times, such as when doing practical things. But that does not mean the same thing as REAL i understand. It can help you access something which is real, but not actually real itself.

Yes, thinking can be useful especially when working out virtual outcomes etc... There's no problem in having thoughts (try stopping them!) The problem comes from believing them to be our Reality.

I am noticing a lot of mental strain and confusion right now. I seem to get that a lot when I am trying to find the truth about something. My mind goes into "confusion" mode, when I am trying to understand what is actually going on with it!

Yes you've nailed it here Chris - trying to get to the truth using the mind is exhausting, the ego mind will use a huge amount of energy protecting the belief that the ideas you have are real - remember, one of those ideas is that 'you', 'Chris', the 'Self' really does exist as the idea or concept tells you it exists.

Please refer back to this anytime the mind begins to interrupt the simple reality of right now in Direct Experience - you are likely to see with clarity, then the mind will create a story around it in an effort to make you doubt the truth.

Now let's move onto the Self as the 'controller' of Chris' life. After all, if you exist, then you must be in control right?

The exercise here is to walk about and move your body randomly and quickly - wave your arms, move your legs etc... Look closely at what's happening while you do this. Is there 'choices' being made about what movements are made or do they simply happen? Is Chris controlling this movement (walking is another good example) or is it just happening and there is experience of it happening?

Mike

To the first questions: The thought about the past or future event can only take place now, at least as far as I can tell. Despite the fact that the thought content may pertain to past or future, that does not change this fact. If I think about, for example, getting a coffee, I may desire having the coffee, as a future event, but that desire for the coffee is happening now, along with the images and thoughts about the coffee. But then when I have the coffee, the previous thoughts about the coffee are past tense, and the experience of the coffee is now.

To the exercise with the body: The thinking "self" likes to claim responsibility for all actions of the body, as much as possible. So I find it difficult to say exactly how much thought is responsible. It often is responsible, but not always, and it doesn't seem to be to the extent that it claims it is.

For example, it appears as though I give a command to "flail my arms around" and later "stop". But then the movements happen, and it seems beyond thought's ability to dictate exactly how it is happening. I deliberately tried to make it so that it would be hard for thought to get in there and control. It just seemed to be going all too fast and randomly for thought to go in and just dictate the exact movements. You can only think a few thoughts a second, after all.

Often, it seems the body makes movements, without the mind's consent at all. Sometimes I catch myself shaking my legs while sitting, and I am completely unaware of it, until thought brings my attention to it.

Walking is pretty obvious for me. I haven't actually gone for a walk yet since last night, and I intend to do this with this question in mind. However, I tend to get completely lost in thought while walking, but the vast majority of those thoughts are not about instructions on how to walk! The body in question is 38 years old, no need for that! You never know, when it is 78, it may need some instructions due to advanced aging, but for now, absolutely not.

There is also the experience of these actions happening. It seems that the fact that one does not need the mind's instructions to perform certain bodily tasks does not mean that they should not be experienced fully. So it seems like the mind tends to discard activities that it does not consider worthy of thinking about, in the sense that they become unconscious. So it just seems to use the body to, for example, go to the mall to buy stuff, or something like that. It needs the body to walk, or drive, or whatever, but it's not going to bother really caring about the walking or driving, that's just a means to an end, getting the thing that it wants, in the future. The mind instead thinks about "more important" things.

So, in short, it seems, that the mind tends to contract out the services of the body, and so is related in that way, but in many ways, the body is independent of the mind's instructions. Kind of like a boss who likes to order his employees around, takes credit for all their work, and does not really think of them as human beings, and does not really truly know them. They are just there to fulfill his supposed "needs"

[eyeman]

Hi Chris,

Do you notice the mind begins to try to find some 'order' in all of this and speculates about this and that - let's bring attention back to pure direct experience in it's simplest form. The important thing is what is known to be true right here and now by Chris. If making sense of things becomes a mental struggle - this is a great clue that it's the mind working on it - doing what it does - conceptualising and labelling what happens. (a reminder that this is the realm of thought ABOUT beliefs rather than direct response of what you find in reality).

When you walk or move quickly, if thoughts are instructing each muscle to act in a certain way, it will be there to see as it happens - so concentrate on what the body does - also what thoughts do - and also when things happen. You indicate that thoughts come along and 'claim' some sort of ownership eg: I made my arm lift etc... This is an important thing that you noticed here.

So far we've looked at what might be called 'reflex' type movements - do we instruct the arm to scratch our nose or does it happen automatically? Do we consciously put a car indicator on to turn left or does it just happen? When walking somewhere, do we need to think about moving our legs and counterbalancing the walking with our arm position?

Watch very carefully how the action happens and where thought is at in the moment.

Let's go a little deeper with a fun exercise:

Plan to at some point in the next few hours suddenly shout 'Stop!' (in your head - doesn't have to be vocalised), then simply shut down and stop.... What happens when you do this? Report back on exactly what happens when you instruct everything to stop. If need be, repeat this exercise a few times - perhaps just for 10 or 20 seconds of stopping - if you're feeling brave - you could 'stop' for an hour or more.

Look forward to hearing what you find :-)

Mike

[chris lewis]

Hi Chris,

Do you notice the mind begins to try to find some 'order' in all of this and speculates about this and that - let's bring attention back to pure direct experience in it's simplest form. The important thing is what is known to be true right here and now by Chris. If making sense of things becomes a mental struggle - this is a great clue that it's the mind working on it - doing what it does - conceptualising and labelling what happens. (a reminder that this is the realm of thought ABOUT beliefs rather than direct response of what you find in reality).

When you walk or move quickly, if thoughts are instructing each muscle to act in a certain way, it will be there to see as it happens - so concentrate on what the body does - also what thoughts do - and also when things happen. You indicate that thoughts come along and 'claim' some sort of ownership eg: I made my arm lift etc... This is an important thing that you noticed here.


So far we've looked at what might be called 'reflex' type movements - do we instruct the arm to scratch our nose or does it happen automatically? Do we consciously put a car indicator on to turn left or does it just happen? When walking somewhere, do we need to think about moving our legs and counterbalancing the walking with our arm position?

Watch very carefully how the action happens and where thought is at in the moment.

Let's go a little deeper with a fun exercise:

Plan to at some point in the next few hours suddenly shout 'Stop!' (in your head - doesn't have to be vocalised), then simply shut down and stop.... What happens when you do this? Report back on exactly what happens when you instruct everything to stop. If need be, repeat this exercise a few times - perhaps just for 10 or 20 seconds of stopping - if you're feeling brave - you could 'stop' for an hour or more.

Look forward to hearing what you find :-)

Mike

When I say "stop" in my head, a couple of things seem to happen. It seems that present events take more prominence, like bodily sensations, and the body seems to be more "alive", and also sounds. I seem to be more aware of the present moment. This is, of course, relative, I feel like I'm just getting a tiny peek.

Invariably though, the mind likes to come along to "help". At this point, it's game over. It has taken over again with its pulling toward future and past. It also seems to want to make it so that it will be even more difficult to perform the exercise in the future.

It is like a flood of thinking, plugging up something, I don't know what, I guess the best way to describe it in words is"present" consciousness. I tend to fight it a lot, but there is also some understanding that's exactly what it wants. So it appears to be a dilemma. I am being lied to, but without the option of truly rejecting those lies as invalid.

[eyeman]

Hi Chris,

When I say "stop" in my head, a couple of things seem to happen. It seems that present events take more prominence, like bodily sensations, and the body seems to be more "alive", and also sounds. I seem to be more aware of the present moment. This is, of course, relative, I feel like I'm just getting a tiny peek.

Invariably though, the mind likes to come along to "help". At this point, it's game over. It has taken over again with its pulling toward future and past. It also seems to want to make it so that it will be even more difficult to perform the exercise in the future.

It is like a flood of thinking, plugging up something, I don't know what, I guess the best way to describe it in words is"present" consciousness. I tend to fight it a lot, but there is also some understanding that's exactly what it wants. So it appears to be a dilemma. I am being lied to, but without the option of truly rejecting those lies as invalid.

Yes, even when you shout stop and want everything to stop - thoughts continue to come rolling in, the heart still beats, you continue to breath, life around you continues in exactly the same way, cells are still being regenerated etc...

But if we were in control of 'our mind' then shouldn't we be able to make it stop when we choose to?

Let's progress with 'me' as the controller.

Think of a City - any city in the world - make a firm choice. Observe exactly what happens - where is the point of choice happening?

Think of any example where you are able to freely choose.

Mike :-)

[chris lewis]

Hi Chris,

When I say "stop" in my head, a couple of things seem to happen. It seems that present events take more prominence, like bodily sensations, and the body seems to be more "alive", and also sounds. I seem to be more aware of the present moment. This is, of course, relative, I feel like I'm just getting a tiny peek.

Invariably though, the mind likes to come along to "help". At this point, it's game over. It has taken over again with its pulling toward future and past. It also seems to want to make it so that it will be even more difficult to perform the exercise in the future.

It is like a flood of thinking, plugging up something, I don't know what, I guess the best way to describe it in words is"present" consciousness. I tend to fight it a lot, but there is also some understanding that's exactly what it wants. So it appears to be a dilemma. I am being lied to, but without the option of truly rejecting those lies as invalid.

Yes, even when you shout stop and want everything to stop - thoughts continue to come rolling in, the heart still beats, you continue to breath, life around you continues in exactly the same way, cells are still being regenerated etc...

But if we were in control of 'our mind' then shouldn't we be able to make it stop when we choose to?

Let's progress with 'me' as the controller.

Think of a City - any city in the world - make a firm choice. Observe exactly what happens - where is the point of choice happening?

Think of any example where you are able to freely choose.

Mike :-)

Yes, it is hard to actually freely choose. There is some sort of "me" that apparently decided to choose Toronto. It tends to give lots of reasons why I made the "right choice". Of course, it tends to doubt that I made the right choice, and wonders whether maybe I should have picked a different city, and I see how ridiculous how all this is, fretting over picking a city when this is just a simple exercise. Yet this, at first glance, is what appears to be the controller. A bunch of ridiculous thought content claiming responsibility for the word and image of a certain city coming to my mind. Similar to the body exercise, thoughts may have contributed to my decision, but I simply can't really believe it when I ask it how.

I have looked at this and a few other activities I have been involved with. It seems like some sort of idea comes along, who knows exactly from where? I can't really find it. It does seem to come from "my head" more than anywhere else. Maybe because that's where the sensory organs, eyes, hearing, etc. are. Then thoughts tend to claim responsibility. They also seem to want to control the original idea, such as wanting to change cities when the image of Toronto popped up. All this is very vague, and probably based on thought content. What I am typing here and other posts tends to be dominated by some sort of fearful "controller, who is invisible. I guess there are no choices being made. I don't really see a "choice maker". Just ideas, with some sort of invisible machine wanting to try to control them, but just making a mess of things.

[eyeman]

Hiya Chris, thanks for your response.

Please check out this video - it may help to unclutter some thoughts happening around the idea of choice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCofmZlC72g

Mike :-)

[chris lewis]

Hiya Chris, thanks for your response.

Please check out this video - it may help to unclutter some thoughts happening around the idea of choice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCofmZlC72g

Mike :-)

Thanks for the video, Mike. It presented things in a way my own mind could not.

So it seems there are no "choices". Instead there is an invisible puppet master creating the illusion of choice. I "chose" the city I was born in, the clearest example of something that happened to "me" that I have no say in. I just popped up one day in a hospital in a city on a planet. No choice.

I have looked at a few activities, challenging the idea that I choose anything. But the problem is, my mind likes to turn these kinds of things into some sort of challenge, for it to ostensibly "solve"

[chris lewis]

Hiya Chris, thanks for your response.

Please check out this video - it may help to unclutter some thoughts happening around the idea of choice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCofmZlC72g

Mike :-)

Thanks for the video, Mike. It presented things in a way my own mind could not.

So it seems there are no "choices". Instead there is an invisible puppet master creating the illusion of choice. I "chose" the city I was born in, the clearest example of something that happened to "me" that I have no say in. I just popped up one day in a hospital in a city on a planet. No choice.

I have looked at a few activities, challenging the idea that I choose anything. But the problem is, my mind likes to turn these kinds of things into some sort of challenge, for it to ostensibly "solve"

A few hours have passed, and now it seems as though the link between thoughts and actions have begun to separate a little. I don't completely trust my mind when it tells me "you are doing this". It seems like thoughts happen, and actions happen, and there is no real link, except my mind tells me there are. The belief in a link is still there, but just a tad weaker.

[eyeman]

Hiya Chris.

Thanks for the video, Mike. It presented things in a way my own mind could not.

So it seems there are no "choices". Instead there is an invisible puppet master creating the illusion of choice. I "chose" the city I was born in, the clearest example of something that happened to "me" that I have no say in. I just popped up one day in a hospital in a city on a planet. No choice.

I have looked at a few activities, challenging the idea that I choose anything. But the problem is, my mind likes to turn these kinds of things into some sort of challenge, for it to ostensibly "solve"

In the above, you mention 'an invisible puppet master' creating the illusion of choice. Look now and try to see who or what that puppet master actually is and report back with what comes up.

A few hours have passed, and now it seems as though the link between thoughts and actions have begun to separate a little. I don't completely trust my mind when it tells me "you are doing this". It seems like thoughts happen, and actions happen, and there is no real link, except my mind tells me there are. The belief in a link is still there, but just a tad weaker.

Yes it starts to become interesting at this stage Chris :-)

Keep looking to see the order which things happen in - remember if the mind is commenting on Real Direct experience, then it's closer to the truth than the mind commenting on thoughts or beliefs the mind already has. Keep with what's direct right here and right now - this is where the truth is found - remember, no past, no future so everything is right here and right now.

'thoughts happen, and actions happen, and there's no real link...'

Let's explore this more deeply. Again, focus on the order of things - do thoughts happen before choice is made or does the 'choice' happen and then thought claims it as it's own. Remember all the stuff in the video and hopefully from your own direct experience where conditions are the cause of the 'choice' - the mind definitely tells you 'I made that choice' but if that's really not the case - then what's happening here?

An exercise which might help you is this:

While sitting quietly, do a body scan from your toes right up to the top of your head focusing on each part of your body at a time. Toes - any tension? any sensation or itching? etc... moving up through your foot, calf, thigh etc...

As you move up your body, if you become aware of a body sensation eg: tense neck - did that tense neck exist before you focused on the neck? If you started off with a sore ankle, is it still sore when there's no attention to it?

Mike :-)

[chris lewis]

Hiya Chris.

Thanks for the video, Mike. It presented things in a way my own mind could not.

So it seems there are no "choices". Instead there is an invisible puppet master creating the illusion of choice. I "chose" the city I was born in, the clearest example of something that happened to "me" that I have no say in. I just popped up one day in a hospital in a city on a planet. No choice.

I have looked at a few activities, challenging the idea that I choose anything. But the problem is, my mind likes to turn these kinds of things into some sort of challenge, for it to ostensibly "solve"

In the above, you mention 'an invisible puppet master' creating the illusion of choice. Look now and try to see who or what that puppet master actually is and report back with what comes up.

A few hours have passed, and now it seems as though the link between thoughts and actions have begun to separate a little. I don't completely trust my mind when it tells me "you are doing this". It seems like thoughts happen, and actions happen, and there is no real link, except my mind tells me there are. The belief in a link is still there, but just a tad weaker.

Yes it starts to become interesting at this stage Chris :-)

Keep looking to see the order which things happen in - remember if the mind is commenting on Real Direct experience, then it's closer to the truth than the mind commenting on thoughts or beliefs the mind already has. Keep with what's direct right here and right now - this is where the truth is found - remember, no past, no future so everything is right here and right now.

'thoughts happen, and actions happen, and there's no real link...'

Let's explore this more deeply. Again, focus on the order of things - do thoughts happen before choice is made or does the 'choice' happen and then thought claims it as it's own. Remember all the stuff in the video and hopefully from your own direct experience where conditions are the cause of the 'choice' - the mind definitely tells you 'I made that choice' but if that's really not the case - then what's happening here?

An exercise which might help you is this:

While sitting quietly, do a body scan from your toes right up to the top of your head focusing on each part of your body at a time. Toes - any tension? any sensation or itching? etc... moving up through your foot, calf, thigh etc...

As you move up your body, if you become aware of a body sensation eg: tense neck - did that tense neck exist before you focused on the neck? If you started off with a sore ankle, is it still sore when there's no attention to it?

Mike :-)

I have always had a bit of trouble with body scans, my mind seems to get in the way, telling me "I'm not doing it properly"

But I can see that there are sensations in my body, when I draw my attention to different parts. Such as tension in the neck. It seems like I needed to use my mind some how just to perform the tasks. I don't know exactly how it works. But the mind seems to like to claim responsibility, as in "I made you notice" or something. But it is fairly clear the tension in the neck, for example was there before. But in a sense, the sensations weren't there, as far as the mind is concerned. It seems to be lost in its own virtual world of thought, unless the sensations are somehow brought to it's attention. Then it says "I am stiff"

[chris lewis]

Hiya Chris.

Thanks for the video, Mike. It presented things in a way my own mind could not.

So it seems there are no "choices". Instead there is an invisible puppet master creating the illusion of choice. I "chose" the city I was born in, the clearest example of something that happened to "me" that I have no say in. I just popped up one day in a hospital in a city on a planet. No choice.

I have looked at a few activities, challenging the idea that I choose anything. But the problem is, my mind likes to turn these kinds of things into some sort of challenge, for it to ostensibly "solve"

In the above, you mention 'an invisible puppet master' creating the illusion of choice. Look now and try to see who or what that puppet master actually is and report back with what comes up.

A few hours have passed, and now it seems as though the link between thoughts and actions have begun to separate a little. I don't completely trust my mind when it tells me "you are doing this". It seems like thoughts happen, and actions happen, and there is no real link, except my mind tells me there are. The belief in a link is still there, but just a tad weaker.

Yes it starts to become interesting at this stage Chris :-)

Keep looking to see the order which things happen in - remember if the mind is commenting on Real Direct experience, then it's closer to the truth than the mind commenting on thoughts or beliefs the mind already has. Keep with what's direct right here and right now - this is where the truth is found - remember, no past, no future so everything is right here and right now.

'thoughts happen, and actions happen, and there's no real link...'

Let's explore this more deeply. Again, focus on the order of things - do thoughts happen before choice is made or does the 'choice' happen and then thought claims it as it's own. Remember all the stuff in the video and hopefully from your own direct experience where conditions are the cause of the 'choice' - the mind definitely tells you 'I made that choice' but if that's really not the case - then what's happening here?

An exercise which might help you is this:

While sitting quietly, do a body scan from your toes right up to the top of your head focusing on each part of your body at a time. Toes - any tension? any sensation or itching? etc... moving up through your foot, calf, thigh etc...

As you move up your body, if you become aware of a body sensation eg: tense neck - did that tense neck exist before you focused on the neck? If you started off with a sore ankle, is it still sore when there's no attention to it?

Mike :-)

I have always had a bit of trouble with body scans, my mind seems to get in the way, telling me "I'm not doing it properly"

But I can see that there are sensations in my body, when I draw my attention to different parts. Such as tension in the neck. It seems like I needed to use my mind some how just to perform the tasks. I don't know exactly how it works. But the mind seems to like to claim responsibility, as in "I made you notice" or something. But it is fairly clear the tension in the neck, for example was there before. But in a sense, the sensations weren't there, as far as the mind is concerned. It seems to be lost in its own virtual world of thought, unless the sensations are somehow brought to it's attention. Then it says "I am stiff"

So I guess if you don't believe the mind, then what? Well, I guess it may be that the sensations may be closer to reality than the mind chatter. The mind tries to control things, take responsibility, but it is the stuff that is actually happening that is more real, and not thoughts about what is happening. The sense organs, the body and mind may all be necessary to perceive reality, but the mind seems to have assumed dominance, and distorted things somehow.

[eyeman]

Hi Chris,

Can you go back to answer the following question:

'Look now and try to see who or what that puppet master actually is and report back with what comes up.'

So I guess if you don't believe the mind, then what? Well, I guess it may be that the sensations may be closer to reality than the mind chatter. The mind tries to control things, take responsibility, but it is the stuff that is actually happening that is more real, and not thoughts about what is happening. The sense organs, the body and mind may all be necessary to perceive reality, but the mind seems to have assumed dominance, and distorted things somehow.

'So I guess if you don't believe the mind, then what?'

What we need to do is get rid of the guessing and just work on Reality without 'imagining'. Let's re-focus on what Direct Experience means: If 'guessing' is happening, then it's the mind that's doing the guessing, it's nothing to do with the actual Direct Experience. The beauty of this process is that perhaps the first time in your life, you're being asked to avoid 'thinking' in a working out sort of way. It can take a little while to get the hang of it - not because it's hard (it's super easy), but it's just never occurred to us that things can be done in a different way than thinking things out.

Please describe experience for Chris right now - no guessing, just as it is.....

So there's just two questions for you to look at here: 1) Who or what is the puppet master and 2) Describe your experience right now with honesty and without any speculation.

Mike :-)