Requesting a guide

[gnoneme]

Hi Pete,

I didn't get a chance to respond last night as I had hoped, but I will respond as soon as I get the chance tonight.

Thanks for understanding,
Prabh

[moondog]

Hi Prabh,

No problem.

Thanks for letting me know.

Looking forward to your replies.

Will respond to them tomorrow.

Love,

Pete

[gnoneme]

Hi Pete,

I just now had the chance to respond. Thanks for your patience.

With 'you' revealed as a thought story, what remains?

Experience remains, in the form of sensations, thoughts, etc. Everything that is happening in this moment remains. Even thoughts about the past and future remain. Awareness remains. And yet, at the same time, there's a feeling of emptiness that I can't quite put my finger on.

What experiences? What thinks? What does?

I honestly don't know. Experience, thinking, and doing all happen, but there's no 'I' entity orchestrating everything. There is no orchestration, by any thing, period. The universe is simply unfurling, without intent.

What is aware?

I don't know. Awareness is simply there. It's a mystery, and 'my' thoughts don't like that all too much, but it is what it is.

Please let me know if I'm being vague though!

-Prabh

[moondog]

Hi Prabh,

Experience remains, in the form of sensations, thoughts, etc. Everything that is happening in this moment remains. Even thoughts about the past and future remain. Awareness remains. And yet, at the same time, there's a feeling of emptiness that I can't quite put my finger on.

No, you're not being vague or, to put it another way, it's just not possible to be specific in a concrete way in response to these questions. Your answer above and the others are exactly as I hoped and demonstrate to me the clarity of your seeing, which is just great.

So, it does seem clear to me that you've seen that there's just no separate self and never has been. However, when all's said and done, it's how this appears to 'you' that matters. That being so, before I put the 'final questions' to you Prabh, I'd like just briefly to review everything we've done so far, to see for sure whether you need to revisit any aspects to look in more depth for any evidence of a self-entity anywhere at all.

As always, in direct experience:

Have you been able to find, a ‘self’ that is the ‘experiencer’?

Or a self that is the doer, or can control what happens?

Or a self that ‘makes’ decisions?

Or a self who ‘does the thinking’?

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?

Are the five body senses made to arise or experienced by this ‘self’?

Is there a self ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’?

Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?

And finally:

Are there any doubts about seeing through the illusion of separate self?

This might seem like a bit if a long list of questions but the answers can be brief unless of course there's something you want to examine some more. As I've said, it doesn't look to me as if there's likely to be much, if anything, but basically, we just need to tidy up and identify any areas that may need to be looked into a bit more deeply, or clarified.

Pete x

[gnoneme]

Hi Pete,

Thanks for reviewing with me everything that we've discussed. Here you go!

Have you been able to find, a ‘self’ that is the ‘experiencer’?

No, there is no 'self' that owns experiencing.

Or a self that is the doer, or can control what happens?

No, there is no self that does or controls anything.

Or a self that ‘makes’ decisions?

No, there is no self that decides. The word 'decision' is a misnomer for experience simply happening.

Or a self who ‘does the thinking’?

No, thoughts simply arise and are not controlled by anything.

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?

Yes, the body is a label placed on top of raw experience.

Are the five body senses made to arise or experienced by this ‘self’?

No, sensations simply occur and are not controlled or experienced by anything.

Is there a self ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’?

No, everything sensed/observed/thought resides within awareness. There is no 'I' that is aware; awareness simply is.

Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?

No, it really is as simple as realizing that Santa does not exist!

Are there any doubts about seeing through the illusion of separate self?

None. Thanks you for all your help Pete!

-Prabh

[gnoneme]

Hi again Pete,

I forgot to mention in my earlier message:

I'll be travelling tomorrow to attend a wedding (over the weekend) and may not have a chance to respond to you until Monday morning PST. I'll try me best to respond to you Thursday morning though.

Thanks for understanding,
Prabh

[moondog]

Hi Prabh,

Thanks for your crystal-clear, straightforward answers, unambiguously confirming that have seen through the illusion of a separate self. I'm very happy that you've seen with such clarity that there's just no self-entity anywhere.

Here then are the final questions. When answering question 5, please give specific and very recent examples from direct experience. Once I get all of your answers, I'll put them forward for other guides for any comments. Then I'll arrange for you to get access to various aftercare and other groups on Facebook and the LU site. Have you got a Facebook name? If so, either let me know here or, if you prefer, PM it to me.

Always from direct experience.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for?

Please give specific examples from your recent experience.

6) Anything to add?

Thanks for letting me know when you'll be away. If you can reply on Thursday, great. If not, we'll resume Monday. Please try to let me know which it will be, if you can. Further ahead, I'll be going on retreat for a couple of weeks starting Tuesday 5th August, but it looks very much as if we'll have all this sorted well before that :)

I hope you have a great time at the wedding.

Pete x

[gnoneme]

Thanks for posing these questions Pete! I won't have a chance to send you a meaningful response this week, but I'll definitely be in touch on Monday.

[moondog]

Ok Prabh,

Look forward to hearing from you on Monday.

Pete x

[moondog]

Hi Prabh,

So, no reply so far .. Is every thing ok? I sure hope so - you're nearly through this now.

Anyway, please let me know as soon as you can.

Pete x

[gnoneme]

Hi Pete,

Many apologies for not getting back in touch earlier! My flight back home was delayed by quite a bit, and I just now had a chance to respond thoughtfully.

Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No, there is no separate entity at all. There never was one, but ‘my’ thoughts seemingly pointed to one … sometimes directly (e.g. “I am hungry”), and sometimes indirectly (e.g. feeling angry if someone was impolite to me, as if there was an ‘I’ being subjected to the impoliteness).

Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The word “illusion” is a very apt description for it. Born out of social conditioning and unquestioned experience (for years!), the illusion is very convincing at first. Thoughts constantly label experience and attribute experience to a local, separate entity … as if everything is bundled up and concentrated in a central ‘thing’ … but this is not what is truly going on. Before the labeling occurs, no such entity exists. What does exist? Everything else! There’s just no ‘I’ animating, experiencing, or reacting to any of it.

How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Feelings of extreme relaxation and “looseness” have been arising over the past few days … as if everything is OK (even the flight delay, which would’ve really ticked ‘me’ off normally) and a knot has been untangled. But, these feelings will eventually subside, and other others will surface.

Before starting this dialogue with you, ‘I’ existed as the type-r of these words, as the feeler of feelings, and as the controller of action. But that is so unnecessary! Now, words are typed, feelings are felt, and actions simply occur. The simplicity of all this is beautiful.

It was interesting being at a wedding and all the other parties/celebrations that accompany the ceremony. ‘I’ gently floated from hour to hour, person to person, occasion to occasion … everything was brimming with love. ‘I’ could clearly see self-referential thoughts, and let them pass. When other people talked to this body, words easily flowed out of ‘my’ mouth. ‘My’ “personality” wasn’t all that different … everything simply existed and proceeded the way it was going to anyways.

What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

‘My’ biggest hang-up was visual experience, and the seeming separateness of the body from everything else. With your pointing, ‘I’ was able to see that the body was just another thought-label. When ‘my’ faith in the separateness of the body crumbled, so did the separate entity. Thank you!

Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Please give specific examples from your recent experience.

There is no decision, intention, free will, choice, control, etc. What makes things happen is a mystery, but things happen regardless. How does it work? ‘I’ don’t know, but it is all so very beautiful.

‘I’ am not responsible for anything, insofar that responsibility entails the existence of a separate entity. But responsibility is acted out nonetheless. For example, ‘I’ abstained from the drinking at the reception so that I could drive friends home afterwards. The fact that ‘I’ needed to do this was registered by thought, exercised by the body, and affirmed in conversation … but there was no ‘I’ behind it, and neither was an ‘I’ necessary.

Another example: ‘I’ needed to choose a wedding gift last-minute. After looking at a few different items, ‘I’ quickly selected one and made sure that it fit the budget I had in mind. The quickness of it all was surprising, because ‘I’ am typically very indecisive … always thinking through options from a place of anxiety. This time, I just let thoughts, the body, and the cosmos do their thing … and viola, a gift was selected painlessly.

In this sense, an unnecessary component (the ‘I’) has been subtracted, and everything else has stayed the same.

Anything to add?

Nothing, except for a big THANK YOU. Your pointing was kind, encouraging, and incisive.

Then I'll arrange for you to get access to various aftercare and other groups on Facebook and the LU site. Have you got a Facebook name? If so, either let me know here or, if you prefer, PM it to me.

Many thanks for looking out! I don’t have a Facebook account, but I can create one if that is where the LU community lives.

Gratefully, and with love,
Prabh

[moondog]

Hi Prabh,

Thanks for your lovely clear answers. They are a joy to read.

I'll now ask the guides to have a look at this thread and will let you know as soon as I can whether they have any queries to clarify anything, as they often do. It's a good idea to check whenever you can, to keep the flow going if necessary. It can take a day or two, or it can be quicker. No worries.

When it's clear that the guides are satisfied, I'll arrange for you to get access to various aftercare and other groups on Facebook and the LU site. You will need to create a Facebook account for the more active, FB 'aftercare' groups, and yes, it is kind of where the LU community lives. You can use an adopted name if you want to stay anonymous, it's up to you. The groups are very friendly and supportive, especially for people like you that have just gated. If you do get aFB account just PM the details to me.

I'm very happy for you Prabh :)

Pete x

[moondog]

Hi Prabh,

Wow, that was quick! I'm happy to say that the guides are satisfied that you have seen through the illusion of a separate self and they have no queries.

I'll now get in touch with LU admin to get you 'turned blue' and they will be contact you with invitations to the various groups etc.

I've really enjoyed this guiding with you Prabh. It was great fun and I'm so pleased that you've seen so clearly.

Remember that you can always get in touch if you need to discuss anything.

Go well Prabh.

Lots of Love,

Pete

Ps This thread will soon be locked and moved over to Archives, after which you'll need to PM me to forward any Facebook details.