Ready to be guided through the gate

[aubergine99]

Good morning, Neil

Who is this ‘I’ that was a little shocked and a bit confused? Can you describe it for me? How is ‘I’ experienced?

That sense of shock was just thoughts about the realisation. THere was the thought go left, while the body went right, and then a less clear thought that said Wooaa this is strange! Thoughts do whatever they want and nothing changes in the senses

.

Good!

There is no me doing anything, there is just movement, there is thoughts about action and but they dont directly control the action. The action and the doing of the action are the same thing.

Excellent.

Can you turn the senses on and off?

Definately can't do that

Without thinking, can you tell where a sound originates from?

No, they are just there, they dont seem to come from anywhere.

Great answers.

Is there any distance between a sound and the awareness of it?

There is no distance. The sound is where it is, the awreness of the sound and the same is the same thing.

Yes, no distance. In fact, if you check DE, there’s not even a sense of ‘where’ unless you think about it. The sound either exists or not. The thought of where the sound comes from seems to come after the sound itself.

When looking at an object in front of you, can you find a line where seeing ends and object starts?

I see the object, it is just there, there is no seperate seeing, just the object. There is a sensation in the eyes but thats not seeing, The seeing is the object itself.[/quote

]

A little confused with your answer here

Just the object. This implies that object is separate from the seeing.

Can you see that the seeing cannot exist alone (separate) without an object. What would there be to see without an object? Likewise, object cannot stand alone without the seeing of it.

The seeing is the object itself.

Here you imply there is no difference beween either one. In fact, they are seamless.

Great work so far.

Is there a ‘you’ that makes decisions?

In this exercise, on a count of 5, please raise either your left or right hand in the air. Do this several times.

Do you make the choice to choose left or right? How is the choice made?

Watch the process and report back.

Thanks.

[aubergine99]

Hi Neil,

Is everything ok?

Brigitte

[neilw]

Hi BIrgitte,

Sorry for taking so long to respond. The truth is I have been feeling a little overwhelmed. I try to do the exercises and try to see what you ask of me, but for the most part i really dont know how to respond.
Like when you say

Is there a ‘you’ that makes decisions?

I will do the exercise, try to pay attention to what is happening. But as for an answer, I just feel like any answer I give would be just trying to give the right answer. To speak as to what seems obvious i would probably say, well it still seems like there is a self. The next question would then be, What is this self where is it. I would then look again and answer, upon looking there just seems to be sensations and senses present. BUt I feel like nothing is changing just looking at the same thing over and over but still coming back to illusion of self whenever Im not actively looking at the senses.

Does this make sense, my hope is that this sheds some light on whats happening on his end

Cheers

[aubergine99]

Hello,

Sorry for taking so long to respond. The truth is I have been feeling a little overwhelmed. I try to do the exercises and try to see what you ask of me, but for the most part i really dont know how to respond.

That’s ok, Neil. It’s natural that there is confusion arising but you are doing really well.

I will do the exercise, try to pay attention to what is happening. But as for an answer, I just feel like any answer I give would be just trying to give the right answer. To speak as to what seems obvious i would probably say, well it still seems like there is a self. The next question would then be, What is this self where is it. I would then look again and answer, upon looking there just seems to be sensations and senses present. BUt I feel like nothing is changing just looking at the same thing over and over but still coming back to illusion of self whenever Im not actively looking at the senses.

You are looking in DE when you say ‘there just seems to be sensations and senses present’. That’s exactly what I was asking. I’m not asking what you think is going on but what you see is going on.

What are you expecting to change, Neil, when you say ‘I feel like nothing is changing’? Can you elaborate a little on what you expect should change? Change occurs when it does. You can't expect to run before you have mastered walking so I suggest you relax a bit.

Are you expecting the sense of self disappear for good? This is not something that we aim to do at LU and never has been. We are only pointing for you to look in DE to SEE that there is no self to be found, anywhere, ever, and that it is only an illusion.

Please do the last exercise I set for you and report only what you see. Do you see how and when a decision is made? Do you find an entity that is choosing to raise a hand? It’s a simple request, just as if I were to ask you to check to see if there was a crocodile under your bed. There either is one or not.

This investigation is really very straightforward which takes little effort. It is so simple, you only need to look.

Let me know how you get on. Remember, keep it simple.

Cheers
Brigitte

[neilw]

What are you expecting to change, Neil, when you say ‘I feel like nothing is changing’? Can you elaborate a little on what you expect should change? Change occurs when it does. You can't expect to run before you have mastered walking so I suggest you relax a bit.

Ok well i figured what would happen is that i look at the senses and try to find the self, and then the illusion of self would melt away and i would wake up one day and there would be no illusion of self, just experience.

Are you expecting the sense of self disappear for good?

No, as i see it the sense of self is a usefull function of the brain, but it gets in the way of an optimal life experience when it is always at the forefront of attention. Ide like to see it just be less prevalent most of the time.

Please do the last exercise I set for you and report only what you see. Do you see how and when a decision is made? Do you find an entity that is choosing to raise a hand? It’s a simple request, just as if I were to ask you to check to see if there was a crocodile under your bed. There either is one or not

Is there a ‘you’ that makes decisions?

In this exercise, on a count of 5, please raise either your left or right hand in the air. Do this several times.

Do you make the choice to choose left or right? How is the choice made?

.

I see no entity lifting the hand. I see thinking about which hand to lift, i see an impulse to lift a hand, i see the hand lifting. I dont see a self lifint the hand.

[aubergine99]

Hi,

Ok well i figured what would happen is that i look at the senses and try to find the self, and then the illusion of self would melt away and i would wake up one day and there would be no illusion of self, just experience.

Try to put aside any expectations of this investigation, for now. What will be, will be.

But do you see, that the ‘illusion of self’ is also experienced as a thought. Examine what ‘your’ life is really made up of. Isn’t ‘your’ life made up purely of experience, always happening right now? The past and future only exist as thought in this moment. They cannot be found in DE. Neither can an illusion of self.

Do you find anything outside of experience? Have a good look.

Are you expecting the sense of self disappear for good?

No, as i see it the sense of self is a usefull function of the brain, but it gets in the way of an optimal life experience when it is always at the forefront of attention. Ide like to see it just be less prevalent most of the time.

These are all thoughts arising as opinions of what is, about what is probably happening or could be happening, and more thoughts commenting on what should be happening. Nothing can get in the way of life happening just as it is. The only way to be sure about what actually IS, and what IS happening is to look at DE.

I cannot give you any guarantee to how feelings arise once the illusion is seen through. In general, the results are considered favourable.

In this exercise, on a count of 5, please raise either your left or right hand in the air. Do this several times.

I see no entity lifting the hand. I see thinking about which hand to lift, i see an impulse to lift a hand, i see the hand lifting. I dont see a self lifint the hand.

Good! You are aware of thoughts appearing in DE and then see the hand rise.

So, would you agree that decisions are made automatically without a decision maker involved? Keep checking daily into how decisions are made to be clear about this.

I look forward to your replies.

Warm wishes
Brigitte

[neilw]

Hello,

But do you see, that the ‘illusion of self’ is also experienced as a thought.

I see that, there are senses and there are thoughts about a self.

Isn’t ‘your’ life made up purely of experience, always happening right now?

Yes your right, its just a bunch of things happening. Now doesnt seem to be an actual moment but like a way to describe that something is happening. its always moving.

Do you find anything outside of experience? Have a good look.

No i definately can't I just find different kinds of experience.

So, would you agree that decisions are made automatically without a decision maker involved? Keep checking daily into how decisions are made to be clear about this.

Yes i see that desicions are just happening. There is no self making desicisions there just seems to be thoughts feelings and actions.

I will definately keep watching this.

Thanks

Neil

[aubergine99]

Hi Neil,

But do you see, that the ‘illusion of self’ is also experienced as a thought.

I see that, there are senses and there are thoughts about a self.

Yes, there is experience (known through the senses) and thoughts (also experience) of course.

Isn’t ‘your’ life made up purely of experience, always happening right now?

Yes your right, its just a bunch of things happening. Now doesnt seem to be an actual moment but like a way to describe that something is happening. its always moving.

Good. The flow of life, always changing, as a constant stream of experience. This is how it seems although in the moment, there is just an experience whatever that may be. It could be the experience of thinking what to have for dinner or the experience of hearing a door bell ring. It is whatever is at that moment.

Do you find anything outside of experience? Have a good look.

No i definately can't I just find different kinds of experience.

Yes.

So, would you agree that decisions are made automatically without a decision maker involved? Keep checking daily into how decisions are made to be clear about this.

Yes i see that desicions are just happening. There is no self making desicisions there just seems to be thoughts feelings and actions.

Good work. So to recap, you have seen in DE that there is no ‘self’ that is doing or deciding anything and that experience through the senses is all automatic and is not controlled by a ‘self’. Are you quite clear on this or is there anything you are not sure about?

Let’s look at thoughts now.

Where do thoughts come from?

Are you in control of them?

Can you stop a thought from coming?

Do you know what the next thought will be?

Can you choose to only have happy thoughts?

Is "I" a different thought from the thought of say, a table?

Can a thought think?

Cheers
Brigitte

[neilw]

Good work. So to recap, you have seen in DE that there is no ‘self’ that is doing or deciding anything and that experience through the senses is all automatic and is not controlled by a ‘self’. Are you quite clear on this or is there anything you are not sure about?

It is clear that the senses are automatic and not controlled by a self. On the topic of action, when trying to watch action happen i tend to 'think' how is this action happening, i should be watching the action and seeing whether there is a self doing the action?

Where do thoughts come from?

They seem to come out of nowhere. If i think about ice cream. the thought just appears.

Are you in control of them?

This seems tricky, because it feels like i can choose to think a thought and then it appears. But then where is this "i" that is thinking about them. When i where this feeling of I comes from all that is there is sensation.

Its like thought about thought about thought.

Can you stop a thought from coming?

haha well, as soon as i think about a thought, there it is, so ide say thats impossible.

Do you know what the next thought will be?

No i dont, i know that it could be just about anything imaginable.

Can you choose to only have happy thoughts?

I tried this and it seemed just trying to only have happy thoughts i immediately thought about something unpleasant as if it was a act of defiance lol

Is "I" a different thought from the thought of say, a table?

They are actually the same. I can't really tell the difference between them. Wierd!

Can a thought think?

Woa.. No, they dont think, they just appear, hang around for a while and then vanish.

Warm regards Brigitte

[aubergine99]

Hi,

It is clear that the senses are automatic and not controlled by a self. On the topic of action, when trying to watch action happen i tend to 'think' how is this action happening, i should be watching the action and seeing whether there is a self doing the action?

Yes, just look to see if there is an entity doing the action.

Are you in control of thoughts?

This seems tricky, because it feels like i can choose to think a thought and then it appears. But then where is this "i" that is thinking about them. When i where this feeling of I comes from all that is there is sensation.

Exactly! All there is to be found is sensation.

Do you choose to only have happy thoughts?

I tried this and it seemed just trying to only have happy thoughts i immediately thought about something unpleasant as if it was a act of defiance lol

What is an experience of ‘trying’? Or is that just thoughts about trying?

Is "I" a different thought from the thought of say, a table?

They are actually the same. I can't really tell the difference between them. Wierd!

They are both thoughts with different content, neither of which is real.

This next exercise is looking at how thoughts label experience.

Take any 5 minutes in your day to look carefully at your surroundings and describe the scene. Focus on what you experience, including the description of people and/or objects in as much detail as possible, as if you were trying to convey the scene to an absent friend. Include, if you like, whatever thoughts you may have about this.
Please include this in your next post as a list or paragraph.

Thanks
Brigitte

[neilw]

Yes, just look to see if there is an entity doing the action.

When i look at my arm moving there is clearly no entity moving it. It just moves up and down.

What is an experience of ‘trying’? Or is that just thoughts about trying?

There is a thought about an action and then there is the action. More like an intention, like lift the cup, and then the arm lifts the cup.

Take any 5 minutes in your day to look carefully at your surroundings and describe the scene. Focus on what you experience, including the description of people and/or objects in as much detail as possible, as if you were trying to convey the scene to an absent friend. Include, if you like, whatever thoughts you may have about this.
Please include this in your next post as a list or paragraph.

Im sitting in a dinning room, in front of a computer. The room opens into a kitchen behind me and a loung room to my left. There is on light in the center of the roof and it is a light yellow. The desk is brown and has a bunch of stuff on it. A black mouse pade with a black mouse. A Laptop to my left sitting on a cooling pad. 2 black speakers on either side of the computer screen. There is another mouse in front of the computer screen with a flame pattern on it. There is a packet of extra chewing gum just to the left of the black keyboard. There is a black pen, 2 pairs of black glives some yellow safety glasses, a notepade opened with writing on it with a blue phone sitting on top of it, some papers bills, and another book. Under those papers is a blue dvd case. At the back left of the desk is a red cd case with some bills on top of it. Underneath the monitor which is a square is a pair of small white headphones and an mps player there is also a pink highlighter and guitar pick there. The mouse pad has some green patterens on it and a pair of big headphones on it also it is quite big. Just to left of that is a white cable and a red lava lamp, to the right of the desk is a silver kyeboard and then a curtain with flowery patterns on it. On the wall in front of me is 2 posters One of the band acdc . It is black with acdc in big red letters and black fractal looking patterns on it. To its right is a poster with writing displaying the fight club credo in between those 2 large posters is a small hook for hanging pictures on . Just to the left is a door that is white with a silver handle. There are some small drity marks on the wall. The ground is a vinyl wooden floor. Rectangles with wood colors. There are 2 pairs of shoes to my left one a running shoes blue and green the other slippers red with white soles. There is also a guitar to my left.

I noticed that as im looking I notice more details about wats around me. Stuff that I know is there but just not being conscious of in the moment and the room seems to become more tangible.

[aubergine99]

Hello Neil,

When i look at my arm moving there is clearly no entity moving it. It just moves up and down.

Good.

What is an experience of ‘trying’? Or is that just thoughts about trying?

There is a thought about an action and then there is the action. More like an intention, like lift the cup, and then the arm lifts the cup.

Yes! Do you see the difference in what the experience is and what thought says it is? ie. there is no ‘you’ trying anything, just intention thought appearing.

Thanks for that very detailed picture. It must have taken some time for you to write it all down – sorry about that, and no need for any more exercises like that.

The point of this exercise was to show how mind (thought) works. It seems to create division by describing objects by name, shape, colour, pattern, size, location, and purpose.

Without all those descriptions, what is left? What is the actual experience of looking at the room? Is there any actual division in the experience?

Does the experience differ whether thought says ‘looking at a curtain with flowery patterns on it’ or just ‘seeing shapes and colours’? There is the actual experience and then thoughts about it. Thoughts may point to experience but their content remain imaginary.

Looking at the descriptive paragraph of your room conveys a detailed image in my mind of what this room looks like. In contrast, my exact experience is of a computer screen with black and white letters on it or basically colours and shapes.

Do you feel you are making progress in this investigation, Neil? Do you find a self in experience or are there just thoughts about that only? Is this becoming any clearer? Any areas of confusion that need addressing?

Warm wishes
Brigitte

[neilw]

Hello Again!

Yes! Do you see the difference in what the experience is and what thought says it is? ie. there is no ‘you’ trying anything, just intention thought appearing.

I see that. the arm lifts, a thought about lifting the arm happens one is in the sense one is in the imagination.

Without all those descriptions, what is left? What is the actual experience of looking at the room? Is there any actual division in the experience?

Its like the action of looking becomes more prevalent, the focus goes from a computer to screen to looking, if that makes sense. everything is the same in the way that it is all an experience of looking.

Does the experience differ whether thought says ‘looking at a curtain with flowery patterns on it’ or just ‘seeing shapes and colours’? There is the actual experience and then thoughts about it. Thoughts may point to experience but their content remain imaginary.

Ah yes! there are the thoughts of flowery patterns, in the head, they are imaginary and disappear as soon as i stop thinking about them. Then there is the curtains how it looks it doesnt change it is just there.

Looking at the descriptive paragraph of your room conveys a detailed image in my mind of what this room looks like. In contrast, my exact experience is of a computer screen with black and white letters on it or basically colours and shapes.

I see so you have an experience in your mind of a room with various details but then there is also an experience of letters on a computer screen, as im writting this now i can hear a voice saying whats being written but im also now realising i am looking at letters on a screen. Its almost like i didnt notice before haha

Do you feel you are making progress in this investigation, Neil? Do you find a self in experience or are there just thoughts about that only? Is this becoming any clearer? Any areas of confusion that need addressing?

The difference between ideas and direct experience is becoming much more obvious. I was having trouble with looking for a self, getting caught up in the ideas of self, but now i can recognise the idea and then look around and pick up direct experience and see that there is no self to be found in those sense. There was a moment last night when things suddenly became clearer for a short time. And there was a sort of understanding that there is no real me, that everything is like a game, that thoughts, ideas about things while usefull are basicaly just made up, there was a definate feeling of freedom too coming with that.

Thanks Brigitte
gratitude

[aubergine99]

Great post, Neil!

Yes! Do you see the difference in what the experience is and what thought says it is? ie. there is no ‘you’ trying anything, just intention thought appearing.

I see that. the arm lifts, a thought about lifting the arm happens one is in the sense one is in the imagination.

Exactly.

Without all those descriptions, what is left? What is the actual experience of looking at the room? Is there any actual division in the experience?

Its like the action of looking becomes more prevalent, the focus goes from a computer to screen to looking, if that makes sense. everything is the same in the way that it is all an experience of looking.

Absolutely! I sense real progress now.

Does the experience differ whether thought says ‘looking at a curtain with flowery patterns on it’ or just ‘seeing shapes and colours’? There is the actual experience and then thoughts about it. Thoughts may point to experience but their content remain imaginary.

Ah yes! there are the thoughts of flowery patterns, in the head, they are imaginary and disappear as soon as i stop thinking about them. Then there is the curtains how it looks it doesnt change it is just there.

Yes, but do you really experience thoughts ‘in the head’ or just thoughts. Look specifically at the experience.

Looking at the descriptive paragraph of your room conveys a detailed image in my mind of what this room looks like. In contrast, my exact experience is of a computer screen with black and white letters on it or basically colours and shapes.

I see so you have an experience in your mind of a room with various details but then there is also an experience of letters on a computer screen, as im writting this now i can hear a voice saying whats being written but im also now realising i am looking at letters on a screen. Its almost like i didnt notice before haha

Funny how the most obvious things can be missed. That’s the difference in perspective between thoughts and DE.

Do you feel you are making progress in this investigation, Neil? Do you find a self in experience or are there just thoughts about that only? Is this becoming any clearer? Any areas of confusion that need addressing?

The difference between ideas and direct experience is becoming much more obvious. I was having trouble with looking for a self, getting caught up in the ideas of self, but now i can recognise the idea and then look around and pick up direct experience and see that there is no self to be found in those sense. There was a moment last night when things suddenly became clearer for a short time. And there was a sort of understanding that there is no real me, that everything is like a game, that thoughts, ideas about things while usefull are basicaly just made up, there was a definate feeling of freedom too coming with that.

Keep up the good work. The more DE is practiced, the clearer it will become. That’s just an idea but DE doesn’t lie.

‘Seeing a rainbow in the sky’ is a description of an experience. In scientific terms it is known as an optical illusion but that doesn’t change the experience. You could describe it as ‘seeing coloured pattern’ more accurately but no description can ever match the experience.

Let’s look at identification as the body. Always reporting from experience.

Who or what experiences? Is it Neil or the body or other?
Is Neil the same as the body?
Is the body experienced?
Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?

Cheers
Brigitte

[neilw]

Hello Hello,

Yes, but do you really experience thoughts ‘in the head’ or just thoughts. Look specifically at the experience.

They kinda arent really anywhere, there are just thoughts about them sitting inside my head, and an associaiton of the sensations of my head with the thoughts.

Who or what experiences? Is it Neil or the body or other?

Its like everything that is happening here is experience. Even the idea of 'here' is just and experience. I cant actually find anything that is 'having' the experiences.

Is Neil the same as the body?

No, they are 2 completely different things. Theres the thought 'neil' and then a sight of the body and senses of the body.

Is the body experienced?

I would say the body is 'the' experience.

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?

Yeh its basically just a bunch of sensations, alot of them seem fairly nondescript. You could say, pressure, heat, numbness, dullness but that doesn't really describe it. More importantly those descriptions are completely separate to the sensations themselves.

Wishing well to you
Neil