Guidance needed

[kiltro]

3) I's an unexaminated thought. There's no one that could be out of the illusion. Actually an illusion imply that someone is illuded when in fact there is not. Ultimately the illusion does not exist.
There's confusion about the meaning of the work here at LU

More looking into other questions...

[Freddi]

Thanks, Alessandro. Confusion is good ;-)
I look forward to your responses to the other questions.

[kiltro]

1) Reality is there is reaction to what happens.
The thoughts talks about an I that react in a way or another, and classify the reactions as "part of illusion" or not. This is all imagined, unreal.
No one could be constantly aware of the illusion, actually there is no one that can be deceived. So, no one that is deceived = no illusion at all.

2) It's curious, in the case of choosing a pen from a group of three. There is seeing and there is taking pen in hand. All the rest are thoughts. Before taking the pen, thoughts about future and possibilities of choosing. After taking pen, thoughts about past, about the choosing "being" made.
These thoughts are not describing present reality.
There were no possibilities: but thoughts. There were non decision: again thoughts. Ultimately there were no one that can make decision: thoughts about thoughts.
In reality there were seeing and body movements... and thoughts of course.

[Freddi]

Hi Alessandro
1)

No one could be constantly aware of the illusion, actually there is no one that can be deceived. So, no one that is deceived = no illusion at all.

Exactly! No one to be deceived = no in or out of illusion. There is only 100% seeing WHAT IS, and, as part of that WHAT IS, there is the thought that says ‘I’m not seeing - yet’.

2)

It's curious, in the case of choosing a pen from a group of three. There is seeing and there is taking pen in hand. All the rest are thoughts. Before taking the pen, thoughts about future and possibilities of choosing. After taking pen, thoughts about past, about the choosing "being" made. These thoughts are not describing present reality.

Thank you for this very clear answer. Could you give me one example, in your life as it is showing up right now, of an apparent decision-making process, whatever it is, and show me how it unfolds, what is seen, what is happening, the thinking labelling it all, etc.

3)

There's confusion about the meaning of the work here at LU

Who or what is looking for meaning for this LU work? Question that thought.
All we do here is point to WHAT IS, right here and now, right in front of our nose, 100 % of the time. It is soooo simple that our mind overlooks it, looks for difficulties, practices, something to ‘get’, when, in fact, there is no one to get anything.
Do I sense something shifting, here, with these last questions?

Fred

[kiltro]

2) Yes.
There is hands typing on the compute keys and there is seeing. There are thoughts that define seeing as "the monitor", "my hands", "I'm looking what I'm writing".
There are thoughts, automatic - not decided by anyone, about what to type, then there is typing.
Than again thoughts that try to explain all this using something like "I'm writing because I have decided this or that".
Actually is very simple. Some spontaneous events like in this case body movement, seeing, and even hearing and A LOT of thoughts.

3) No one of course. Again an unexamined thought

[Freddi]

Hi Alessandro

There is hands typing on the compute keys and there is seeing. There are thoughts that define seeing as "the monitor", "my hands", "I'm looking what I'm writing".
There are thoughts, automatic - not decided by anyone, about what to type, then there is typing.
Than again thoughts that try to explain all this using something like "I'm writing because I have decided this or that".
Actually is very simple. Some spontaneous events like in this case body movement, seeing, and even hearing and A LOT of thoughts.

Yes it is indeed very simple. Thank you for this beautiful description of looking into direct experience.

Would you say that you have seen through the illusion of the separate self? Do you have any doubts or sticking points you would like to bring up at this stage?

If you do feel you have seen through, how would you explain it to someone who had never heard of it but was very curious about it?

Thanks!

Fred

[kiltro]

Would you say that you have seen through the illusion of the separate self?

Yes I'would, although now it doesn't seems like an illusion, you see illusion in my belief was seen as something bad, like "I'm cheating my self" I have to stop this... actually there' s no one to be in the illusion so nothing really wrong. It's strange...

Do you have any doubts or sticking points you would like to bring up at this stage?

Nothing comes to mind

If you do feel you have seen through, how would you explain it to someone who had never heard of it but was very curious about it?

Probably I would not use the term illusion, as I said it implies that there is actually someone that it's been deceived.
The important part is to understand what's direct experience, than I would point to the difference to thought in itself and its content. In short I would say "Every thoughts that imply the existence of an "I" are false"

[Freddi]

Hi Alessandro

Yes, interesting how the word ‘illusion’ in its origin only means ‘at play’…

What I suggest now is this. We take another look at the summing-up questions, and see if you would like to rephrase some of them, in the light of the further examination into thoughts we did together. If you are happy with what you wrote then, then simply copy and paste, if not, rewrite what would be truer for you now. I’ll paste the questions here again, to save you looking them up. Your answers were on page 4 of our thread (July 4). Take your time. No rush, and always write from what sounds true and alive for you in this moment, if a thought comes up, don’t let it go uninvestigated.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
 
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now. 
 
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
 
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? 
 
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
 
6) Anything to add?

After that we can continue our examination of residual thinking if you would like that.

Thanks!

Fred

[kiltro]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No there is no separate entity. At least I can't find it. The concept of I seems quite ridiculous.
Don't know if it was there any day in the past, all thought about the past are only thoughts. Can't be sure of what was there or not.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

Now it doesn't seem like an illusion because there's no one to be decived. There are only life events happening, among these there are thoughts. The content of some thoughts is about an imaginary "I", "me", a separate self that in reality does not exist.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

There's more calm during the day, the rush of daily activities is quite diminished. The thinking process is less standing above other events.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

It was questioning the thoughts about someone that have to see the illusion

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

Sometimes there are events and thoughts about these that imply someone is responsable for the events. Sometimes before events there are thoughts about imaginary possibilities between wich choose. There is no one choosing, no one doing these thoughts, there are only life events some of them are thoughts.

6) Anything to add?

Nothing comes to mind

[Freddi]

Thanks Alessandro,

I will now invite other guides to have a look and see if we've covered all areas. They may or may not have further questions. I'll be in touch soon.

Warm wishes

Fred

[kiltro]

Thank you Fred!

[Freddi]

Hi Alessandro

Three other guides have found your answers very clear, so there are no further questions. This thread will soon be moved to the archives, and your name will appear in blue on the forum.
I will now go and send you a private message about what follows ...

It was a pleasure and privilege to accompany you in this investigation, thank you.

Bye for now

Fred