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[matumba]

Hi ES,

Do you mean that you appear when you focus on problems and plans, and disappear when you're "living in the moment"? (I don't think this is what you mean in any literal way, but it is funny to imagine popping in and out of existence based on what thought patterns are going on :) ) Is it an actual self that arises and then goes away? What is it exactly that seems to come and go?

It is pretty funny. What i mean is the personal feeling is strongest when I am focused on some task or plan or something other than looking or watching things unfold. There is no actual self, just some identity that seems to always be running in the background (so i guess it doesn't really come and go), but when I get caught up in some task, that identity comes more to the forefront.

Can you live at any time other than "the moment"? When you plan for the future, are you really in the future?

No, can't live any other time, but what i mean is when focus goes to memories or plans I refer to that as not in "the moment"

Please give me more specifics about the "personal feeling". Pay attention to it in the way that you paid attention to eating at the very beginning of this process. Then describe the particulars of the thoughts, emotions, whatever else that you're referring to when you use the words "personal feeling". It may help to do this more than once. You can do this in a journal if you'd like.

Excellent idea on the journal. This will take some looking, so I may not be able to give an in depth observation for a few days.
Thanks for your help!
John

[EmptySet00]

John,

Do you see clearly whether or not this "personal feeling" is really you? That's the thing to stay focused on.

Please try to report back briefly at least once a day, even if you are doing a significant amount of writing elsewhere.

Sounds like you're on the right track. Keep going!

ES

[matumba]

Hi ES,
Thanks - I can see this "personal feeling" is not really me... But I can't say that I see it clearly. Does that make any sense? I cannot see what this feeling is, or rather what makes it personal. I will give an in depth report in the next day or two.

[matumba]

Hi ES,

Do you see clearly whether or not this "personal feeling" is really you? That's the thing to stay focused on.

I still cannot see what this feeling really is - somehow there is individuality/identity. I suppose its a feeling - maybe a thought. But somehow there is an identity, even if it is just a looking identity. I will keep up journaling, when I review my notes it is pretty circuitous, so that should tell "me" something haha.
I will check in again tomorrow.
Thanks,
John

[EmptySet00]

Are you basically talking about a cluster of thoughts and feelings?

Can a bunch of thoughts and feelings -have- thoughts and feelings?

Can a thought think?

[matumba]

Hi ES,

Are you basically talking about a cluster of thoughts and feelings?

I suppose, but the cluster(s) are always there. Who or what is aware of these thoughts/feelings? That must be the “I” but it doesn’t really feel like it. It feels more like “I” is the common meeting area for feelings and thoughts that would otherwise just be out there in the ether. All those thoughts/feelings out there, and seemingly “I” am just aware of a select few.

Can a bunch of thoughts and feelings -have- thoughts and feelings? Can a thought think?

Nope, no way – I spent way too much time thinking about that; and thinking I had a feeling and feeling like I had a thought. If “I” think about a thought, is thought thinking? But there is no “I”, so who or what is thinking? So this was a big circle, but when “I” look (without thinking) it appears as though it is all just thought/feeling. I hope you understand that diatribe, not sure “I” do haha.
Resistance is strong – trying to look at resistance, seems to be getting “me” off track and wrapped up in daily life. Looking at this personal feeling is like putting your thumb on a ball of mercury, its just elusive.
Thanks,
John

[matumba]

Hi ES,
Posting from phone - big storm knocked out modem, should be fixed friday. Will try to get to town and post more detail tomorrow.
John

[EmptySet00]

Who or what is aware of these thoughts/feelings?

The same "who" or "what" that sees, hears, etc! Remember- Direct experience! "I hear this" vs. the experience of sound. "I see that" vs. the experience of sight. "I think this"- is "I" tacked on, a thought referring to another thought?

It feels more like “I” is the common meeting area for feelings and thoughts that would otherwise just be out there in the ether.

How do you know the feelings and thoughts are just "out there in the ether"? You mean like radio signals? Do you sense "thoughts and feelings out there in the ether" that are _not_ the thoughts and feelings you're experiencing?

Looking at this personal feeling is like putting your thumb on a ball of mercury, its just elusive.

Yes, that "sense of self" is slippery! Keep asking, "What is this sense of self, being experienced right now?" Then see if the answer has any consistency or keeps changing.

Good luck getting your Internet connection fixed. If I don't hear from you tomorrow, I'll assume that's why.

ES

[matumba]

Hi ES,
Finally some time to give you an in-depth report, though I will try not to be too wordy:
I may have been expecting more than I realized – not a big deal, just a marker for any perceived “progress”. I think deep down there was a desire to eliminate this “I” – but now see this “I” as a thought that must be lived with (and hopefully enjoyed). Who is living with this thought? I suppose it is just a thought to be observed – instead of “lived with”.

How do you know the feelings and thoughts are just "out there in the ether"? You mean like radio signals? Do you sense "thoughts and feelings out there in the ether" that are _not_ the thoughts and feelings you're experiencing?

Hard to describe because it is equated with a sense of being more than “I”. There is still some feeling that something hasn’t been realized… “John” still seems to experience things and that experience somehow feels like its “mine” even though it is just an experience. And there do seem to be thoughts and feelings out there that “John” doesn’t experience – just misses out on somehow.

The gatecrash may not be a big dramatic event. It might just be that after enough looking, it starts to seem really obvious.

It’s obvious there is no me when I look – just a thought, but it hasn’t really sunk in. I re-read our conversation and can see some progress. I’ve been told by others that I seem different in the last week or so. I also feel different – but honestly don’t know if that is because a stressful situation has been more or less resolved or if it is a result of this process.
I briefly condensed my journal above - writing helped me see the common theme that arises when looking - I noticed a circle that always ended in expectations or some pre-conceived notion of this/that or the other. Always looking and never finding the "personal feeling" but still feeling a lack somehow - don't know who is feeling this lack - just a feeling of incompleteness?
Thanks for your patience!
John

[EmptySet00]

I think deep down there was a desire to eliminate this “I” – but now see this “I” as a thought that must be lived with

This is key! This isn't about making the sense of self go away, it's about seeing it for what it is. (Some people claim to experience no sense of self or no discursive thoughts, but that's not what LU is about.)

“John” still seems to experience things and that experience somehow feels like its “mine” even though it is just an experience.

Is the "mine" a thought tacked on to the experience?

And there do seem to be thoughts and feelings out there that “John” doesn’t experience – just misses out on somehow.

If you don't experience these thoughts and feelings, how do you know they're there?? Are you talking about the thoughts and feelings expressed by other people, or something else?

Always looking and never finding the "personal feeling" but still feeling a lack somehow - don't know who is feeling this lack

Do the feelings need a feeler, any more than thoughts need a thinker or sounds need a hearer? These are all processes. If thoughts describe these in words, the structure of language means there's a noun and a verb. But is the "I" in "I'm feeling this lack" anything other than a word stuck in there by a thought?

ES

[matumba]

Hi ES,
Thanks for your reply.

Is the "mine" a thought tacked on to the experience?

I'm sure it is, but the feeling (absent of ownership) is there - hard to put in words. There is a feeling of lack, but its not owned by "me" - just a feeling of incompleteness and not really "my" incompleteness.

If you don't experience these thoughts and feelings, how do you know they're there?? Are you talking about the thoughts and feelings expressed by other people, or something else?

Don't know they're there. They just seem to be - like the brain decides to focus on one thing and not another, then switches gears. So it may be some projecting going on. Not really the thoughts and feelings of others, just the thought/feelings that intuitively seem to be there, but doesn't enter this awareness.

Do the feelings need a feeler, any more than thoughts need a thinker or sounds need a hearer? These are all processes. If thoughts describe these in words, the structure of language means there's a noun and a verb. But is the "I" in "I'm feeling this lack" anything other than a word stuck in there by a thought?

Not really sure there is an "I" in this feeling of lack - just a sense of maybe unease. Currently, "I" am trying to just go with the feeling and accept it. "I" tend to overthink on this one - it is a sticker - "I" have many analytical thoughts on why it is there, the most prevelant is that "I" have been unable to find this "personal feeling" because it is not there, and "I" am disappointed (feeling a lack) that it cant be found.?.?.
Thanks again!
John

[matumba]

Well son of a gun,
After looking for a while this morning it became incredibly obvious the "feeling of lack", incompleteness, whatever "I" was calling it is totally related to my expectations - probably about "enlightenment" or whatever. just thought I'd share that and looking forward to your reply. Will respond tomorrow.
Thanks,
John

[matumba]

Hi ES,
Waiting on reply - I will check in later tonight thanks!
John

[EmptySet00]

There is a feeling of lack, but its not owned by "me" - just a feeling of incompleteness and not really "my" incompleteness.

Yes, feelings go on, as do thoughts. The question is, Is there an owner?

thought/feelings that intuitively seem to be there, but doesn't enter this awareness

If the thoughts and feelings "intuitively seem to be there", doesn't that mean you're aware of them to some degree? Or are there some thoughts saying that other thoughts and feelings could or should be there?

Is there any way that your thoughts and feelings could be any different from what they are now?

Are you anything other than thoughts, feelings, maybe a sense of ownership?

the "feeling of lack", incompleteness, whatever "I" was calling it is totally related to my expectations - probably about "enlightenment" or whatever

Yes, it's important to bring expectations into the light and examine them. Poke around for any other expectations that might be lurking.

Does it feel like you've crashed the gate, pierced the veil? Or are there doubts lingering?

ES

[matumba]

Hi ES,

If the thoughts and feelings "intuitively seem to be there", doesn't that mean you're aware of them to some degree? Or are there some thoughts saying that other thoughts and feelings could or should be there?

It is like they could possibly be there - more a memory thing. When the body has a response (like breathing), there is no real thought of breathing, but when the breath is controlled, there is something that controls it, and there is memory of that (controlling breath) thought.

Is there any way that your thoughts and feelings could be any different from what they are now?
Are you anything other than thoughts, feelings, maybe a sense of ownership?

No way thoughts or feelings can be different than they are now. I am nothing other than these thoughts and feelings. Ownership is not "John", but "John" is still here.

Does it feel like you've crashed the gate, pierced the veil? Or are there doubts lingering?

I don't know if there are doubts - none are apparent. I don't see a gate or a veil. I don't feel any different. I've reread several of the gatecrashers and don't see any that really parallel. I don't feel a sense of freedom. There is no sense of relief. No increased calmness.
I am less prone to anger and not as easily frustrated. A few friends have noticed I seem less "edgy". I've noticed slight changes, but as mentioned before am not sure if they are related to less stress from work.
There is a lingering sense of disappointment - associated with expectations I'm sure. I can't find who is disappointed, but thats the best way to describe that feeling. There is still that void apparently inherent in most humans. Looking for something else - whatever it is. Who is looking? - just life I suppose. I continue to look occasionally getting caught up in "me" but realize quickly that "I" am not there... just stuff happening. there is not a lot of joy in whatever is going on - I guess there isn't supposed to be, it just is as it is. Just the ebb and flow of life. Thanks for helping me out here.
John