Hello Ilona, I'd like to ask you to be my guide

[vinceschubert]

The problem is that this second labeling thought most of the time is believed, so the “I” is “created” again.

This may be just a language thing, but let's be clear about it. The I or Self is just a label for a story. A collection of thoughts. Previous to seeing through the illusion, these thoughts were taken to be actual. Now there is Seeing them for what they are. Just thoughts. When focus is applied, that is. At other times there is the result of conditioning. This doesn't mean that the thoughts are believed. It means that a very useful function of the human organism is in play. The automatic running of programs. This means that you can button your clothes without necessitating conscious attention. That you can avoid obstacles when walking without even realizing it.
Each time that you catch yourself being lost in a story, do an evaluation of whether it is useful or not.
You will never be without thoughts for long. You no longer identify with the story of Vivien, so stream entry has occurred. Now there is a dropping of the old conditioning where it is a problem and an establishment of new conditioning to replace that. That is happening and will continue to happen (perhaps until the organism dies).
An example of this is when at golf and a bad shot happens, i no longer berate myself for doing something wrong. It just happened. i don't feel bad, as in guilt. i just experience a slight disappointment that it wasn't a good one. Likewise when a good shot happens, i feel joy at the happening, but no pride that "I did it". There is no identification with a story about control.

Seeing happens later and sometimes after a moment of seeing I become lost in the story again. It can be followed with another seeing for a moment, than being lost for a minute, than seeing again, etc.

This is changing conditioning. Examine your expectations about being 100% aware. That will never happen. If you've ever had LSD or magic mushrooms, you will remember how dysfunctional that kind of awareness is.
Have you ever driven somewhere only to realize at some point that you have absolutely no memory or awareness of the last few kilometers ? The organism can do amazing things on automatic.

So while my direct experience is that sensation happens in the fingers, actually it happens in the brain. Therefore, direct experience could be labelled as illusion also. But if I cannot see through the illusion, meaning if I don’t experience the sensation in the brain instead of the fingers, for me, the sensation in the fingers is real in direct experience.

This is a case of useful stories. Yes, absolutely, the brain being the actual location of experience is a story. We could extend that story to say that the fingers are an extension of the brain, but that is still story. Some stories may turn out to be accurate (or not), some will have advantageous responses (some not). The brain story is one that points to non-duality. Is that another story or can it be verified in experience. It's easy to see that vince is a story in Viviens' mind, when all that actually exists are some squiggles on a computer screen. It's harder to see the same thing when standing face to face and talking to someone, but is it actually different. That other person is still Viviens' interpretation of the sounds and sights that occur. Is this so ?

So does the object, called table, exist?

There is a theory in quantum physics that says that consciousness (awareness) will create the object when focus is applied. It may or may not turn out to be accurate, so it is better to say "i don't know".
i have a useful story that say (something like) there is this infinite 'grab bag' called the 'great mystery', from which everything that is not current experiencing, emerges from and returns to. It is only 'real' when experiencing happens.
Experiencing the minds obsession with explaining everything it touches, loses its' intensity when remembering this story.

After an interpretation came that I am not the body but the awareness in which all phenomena arise. A couple of time this experience repeated, but I stopped paying attention to it, since it was still dualistic, I am as awareness and everything else is in it.

Story here is that i am the whole dream. All of the characters and all form, and that the dream 'contains' the dreamer, and that there is nothing that is not the dream. ...and like the mind boggle that happened as a kid when trying to fit infinity into thinking.....

love

vince

[Vivien]

Hi Vince,

Now there is Seeing them for what they are. Just thoughts. When focus is applied, that is. At other times there is the result of conditioning. This doesn't mean that the thoughts are believed. It means that a very useful function of the human organism is in play. The automatic running of programs.

Thank you for pointing this out. It was a belief that ‘a thought can be believed’, but this is just another labelling thought. So there could be two main functioning mode of the body-mind organism. 1. To be lost in the content of the thought. 2. Seeing the thought itself. But how this seeing happens, which senses with? Not with the eyes.
And who identifies with thoughts?

Vivien wrote:
Seeing happens later and sometimes after a moment of seeing I become lost in the story again. It can be followed with another seeing for a moment, than being lost for a minute, than seeing again, etc.

Vince wrote:
This is changing conditioning. Examine your expectations about being 100% aware. That will never happen. If you've ever had LSD or magic mushrooms, you will remember how dysfunctional that kind of awareness is.
Have you ever driven somewhere only to realize at some point that you have absolutely no memory or awareness of the last few kilometers ? The organism can do amazing things on automatic.

So, I have a fantasy that a “liberated human” is never lost in a story or thought because there is a seeing of thoughts arise and not lost in its content. Are you saying that this is an ‘unrealistic’ expectation? Or I am missing the point?

the brain being the actual location of experience is a story.

I’ve also come to the same conclusion after I posted the brain story. Only the experience can be real, everything else is just a story.

It's easy to see that vince is a story in Viviens' mind, when all that actually exists are some squiggles on a computer screen. It's harder to see the same thing when standing face to face and talking to someone, but is it actually different. That other person is still Viviens' interpretation of the sounds and sights that occur. Is this so ?

Yes, this is so. In direct experience there is no Vince who is talking to me, there are only forms, colours, movements, sounds. That is just an assumption that what I see is a human, a man, who is talking to me, all based on learning/conditioning. ‘Me’ is also an assumption with the belief that there is an entity in that body called Vince. In theory it is clear to me, but in practise, I cannot see the world this way. Today I tried to observe people this way with little success.

Story here is that i am the whole dream. All of the characters and all form, and that the dream 'contains' the dreamer, and that there is nothing that is not the dream.

Oh, yes. Thank you for pointing this out. I can see now that this is just a story. This story was a reply to your previous post:

Everything, the whole world, everybody, is ALL in you. You are ALL of it, them. Can you say that there is anything other than Experiencing ? ...and where does that happen ?

Can you elaborate on this? What do you mean by me (“all in you”)? In the brain, or in the “I” or where? How can “I” experience it? Is there anything “I” can do it to happen?

Something else: The word “knowing” lost its meaning. Knowing is just a verbal interpretation or description about an experience which is stored in the memory. Can I ever know anything? For me, the word “knowing” implies that what is know is true, or a fact, or that is real. Knowing implies certainty. But it cannot be, it’s impossible. Nothing real can be known, because either I experience it now or not. Knowing doesn’t exist. I cannot know anything.

Thank you,
Vivien

[Vivien]

Hi Vince,

There were some glimpses. I was sitting on the floor, leaning back to the couch with my back. There was a sensation where the back and the couch contacted. In that sensations there weren’t any back or couch just the sensation.
So far, I wrote to you that if I touch a table the only real thing is just the sensation in the hand. But actually, when I touched the table there was a thought about “the hand” which wasn’t seen just as a though. But now, the labelling thought is seen, so there is only the sensation, because the subject and object is just a story. Unfortunately, this SEEing don’t happen with seeing and hearing. “I” still “experience” a sound (object) or the sight.

Vivien

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Viv,

But how this seeing happens, which senses with? Not with the eyes.

Yes, "seeing" is just a word that points to something that is hard to define. Perhaps 'recognizing' is a better word, but still not quite right. 'Discovering' says something too.

And who identifies with thoughts?

Is it thoughts that make an assumption that there has to be a "who" ?
If we look at identification what do we find ?
Do we find particular responses (emotions/behavior) as a result of belief in a story ?

So, I have a fantasy that a “liberated human” is never lost in a story or thought because there is a seeing of thoughts arise and not lost in its content. Are you saying that this is an ‘unrealistic’ expectation?

Oh bugger. Sorry about this, but of the hundreds of liberated humans that i've had anything to do with, i've yet to meet the one who never gets lost in story. Certainly they happen less frequently and don't last as long, and are never believed when they are seen.

In theory it is clear to me,

Is this just language ? i took it that you SEE that this is the way it IS. Did i get it wrong ?

but in practise, I cannot see the world this way. Today I tried to observe people this way with little success.

Well, it's not very practical to "see the world this way." What i actually mean is that it's not practical to communicate with others this way. It is practical to remember that the world is the interpretation that happens in Vivien. It allows judgement and opinion to fall away.

Can you elaborate on this? What do you mean by me (“all in you”)? In the brain, or in the “I” or where? How can “I” experience it? Is there anything “I” can do it to happen?

i could try (and elaborate) but they would be just more words.
You do SEE that all is Experiencing. What more can be said ? (about this)

The word “knowing” lost its meaning.

Ha yes. (see a big rave about this here; http://vince-wisingup.blogspot.com.au/search?q=truth) An extreme summary would be that, at best we can behave As If something is true. (for practical purposes)

love

vince

[vinceschubert]

so there is only the sensation,

Beautiful. Yes, sensation is a word pointing to experiencing. Experiencing is a word pointing to Perception. Perception is a word pointing to THIS. ..and THIS is ALL. ..and ALL is THIS.

love

vince

[Vivien]

Hi Vince,

Vivien wrote:
And who identifies with thoughts?

Vince wrote:
1. Is it thoughts that make an assumption that there has to be a "who" ?
2. If we look at identification what do we find ?
3. Do we find particular responses (emotions/behavior) as a result of belief in a story ?

1. Yes, there is a thought and its content is that there has to be a ‘who’. But before you pointing this out this wasn’t seen only as thought. Thank you :)

2. Can the identification be looked at? If I’m lost in a thought and identification is present, the identification cannot be seen. In the moment it is seen than there isn’t any identification, just a thought been seen. So when identification is “seen” it refers to the past, so it’s not seeing but an interpretation.

3. Yes, absolutely. When there is identification, there are emotional or behavioural responses. When it is seen only as a thought then the emotional response is much weaker or sometimes none.

the hundreds of liberated humans that i've had anything to do with, i've yet to meet the one who never gets lost in story. Certainly they happen less frequently and don't last as long, and are never believed when they are seen.

“I am” confused. There are assumptions and expectations what liberation would feels like. You asked this:

Vivien wrote:
In theory it is clear to me,

Vince wrote:
Is this just language ? i took it that you SEE that this is the way it IS. Did i get it wrong ?

“I am” not sure about anything anymore.

What has been seen:
1. When the word “I” refer to the body, it is seen that this is just language, the “I” is just a label. For example, there is a thought “I sit here”, and immediately it’s seen that not “I” sit here but this body.

2. When the word “I” in a thought refer to some ‘entity living in the body’ then this is not always that obvious. When a thought come “I am frustrated”, there is a noticing of the word “I”. But this noticing is not as fast as with the body and the conviction of its truthfulness is not always that clear or obvious.

3. It was seen upon every investigation, that the “I” “lives” only in thought. As if “I lives” in almost every memory and every belief. As if every memory and belief contains a small fragment of the “sense of I”. But both a memory and a belief is just a thought. There is a feeling, even if the word “I” isn’t present in a thought, it is still present implicitly (as a sense of I).

4. Whenever I search for the location of the thought, the only place that it can be found is in a thought. But there is something, as if this wouldn’t be a satisfying answer and the search for the location of the “I” still goes on. So “I” assume that the belief in the “I” or some remnants of it is still there or it is just another thought saying that this answer is satisfying, or both. It is said that it’s enough to see the illusion of the “I” once, and it cannot be not seen again. But then how it is possible to be in lost in a thought again? A thought “contains” the “I”. So if the content of a thought is ‘believed’ than the sense of I is there. So ‘my’ assumption here is that “I didn’t see it”.

5. It is seen that the movements of the body is automatic. It just happens.

6. It was seen several times, that visual images comes up by themselves. The moment when they show up out of the nothing can be seen easily.

7. But was there a moment when the concrete arising of a though was seen? I’m not sure. I would rather say that thoughts are recognised only as thoughts when they are already there. I could be lost in its content from a few milliseconds to several seconds when suddenly they are seen only as thoughts. The “I” is a thought, but it probably never was a clear seeing this I-thought to emerge out of the nothing.

A thought just came “I am confused” then almost immediately there was a noticing of the word “I” in the thought. Is this SEEing?

Vivien wrote:
but in practise, I cannot see the world this way. Today I tried to observe people this way with little success.

Vince wrote:
Well, it's not very practical to "see the world this way." What i actually mean is that it's not practical to communicate with others this way. It is practical to remember that the world is the interpretation that happens in Vivien. It allows judgement and opinion to fall away.

The remembrance that the world is just ‘my’ interpretation is there. But there was an expectation that I should literally see the world differently. That’s the reason why I wrote “in theory” because the remembrance is just concepts again but I expected literal changes in vision or something.

Perception is a word pointing to THIS. ..and THIS is ALL. ..and ALL is THIS.

This experience or recognition that THIS is ALL is quite weak, or maybe not the experience is weak. Maybe there is another expectation that this experience that ‘this is all’ should be a constant experience? “I am” so confused.

Something else. Ilona mentioned that falling happens after the illusion of the self seen through. However, this falling is constantly happening to “me” in the last few months. But I don’t consider myself as someone who completely seen through this illusion, since according to my assumption, if this happens, I won’t be able to lost in a content of thought believing in the “I”.

But, in the last 2 weeks the suffering is almost completely gone, or totally gone. This is huge, because before that my life was a constant, intolerable suffering. I had a very strong obsession with my physical appearance accompanied with self-hatred and self-loathing. It is also gone. A belief collapses after another with every day. “My” whole life was about a constant seeking. Now, there is a feeling that I have found what I have been seeking for (the end of the belief of existence of the “I”) but still there is a seeking on how to do it. I still feel that it’s not finished.

Thank you,
Vivien

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Viv.

when identification is “seen” it refers to the past,

Yes, that's true, and it gives an opportunity to examine beliefs that are currently held. ...and what are beliefs ?
Are they a particular 'type' of thought ?
A thought that is responded to in a particular way ?

“I am” confused. There are assumptions and expectations what liberation would feels like.

Please list your current assumptions and expectations.

What has been seen:

This is an excellent list. It is all good noticing & shows that we are well on our way. There is only one point in your list that needs further investigation;

t is said that it’s enough to see the illusion of the “I” once, and it cannot be not seen again. But then how it is possible to be in lost in a thought again? A thought “contains” the “I”. So if the content of a thought is ‘believed’ than the sense of I is there. So ‘my’ assumption here is that “I didn’t see it”.

This is a classic case of thought being obsessive about wanting a satisfying conclusion. That is thoughts looking to thoughts for a resolution to 'untidy' thoughts.
Once it is Recognized that the Self (I) only ever existed as a story, it is common for doubt thoughts to arise. This happens for exactly the reason you describe. Because getting lost in thoughts happens again and again until conditioning is changed. When it is Realized that however many years of conditioning and reinforcement of conditioning takes a re-wiring of the brain to change, an acceptance can settle in, which allows a peace, a surrender to happen. Have a look at this video for a fuller explanation of this; https://www.dropbox.com/s/mskv8uxmnmf2f ... _Being.mp4

A thought just came “I am confused” then almost immediately there was a noticing of the word “I” in the thought. Is this SEEing?

Hmm, SEEing is Recognizing. The Buddhists might call it witnessing. So yes, you SAW the use of the word I arise. If you then got lost in ruminating about the SEEing then it was a short lived SEEing, and of little value. What would have been of 'better' value, would have been for that SEEing to extend into Recognizing that in the past the use of the word I promoted an identification with the story that contained it, and that as a result of seeing this that story was evaluated for its' usefulness and either discarded or continued with (but with the recognition that it is a story) Either way, the 'blind' living out the content of those thoughts was abandoned.

But there was an expectation that I should literally see the world differently.

No, the wonderfullness of the human organism has evolved to relate to form in the way it does (at a physical level) mustn't be overlooked. There will be a different response to form, in that what is often taken for granted, will be appreciated and even wondered at more frequently. The saying "nothing has changed, but everything is different" applies here (too).

Maybe there is another expectation that this experience that ‘this is all’ should be a constant experience?

Is there anything, anything at all, that is permanent ? Have you ever had an experience that doesn't fade after some time ?
Listen Viv, a liberated being is still human. Pop spirituality has a lot to answer for with the crap it propagates. i'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news but there will be no attainment of magical powers. (although the world will take on seemingly magical properties)

But, in the last 2 weeks the suffering is almost completely gone, or totally gone. This is huge, because before that my life was a constant, intolerable suffering. I had a very strong obsession with my physical appearance accompanied with self-hatred and self-loathing. It is also gone. A belief collapses after another with every day.

WonderFull. This will continue for the rest of your life, although not with the same intensity.
The Buddhists refer to awakening as stream entry. (and you are up to your knees)

love

vince

[Vivien]

Hi Vince,

After I wrote you yesterday, something clicked. The full SEEing that the “I” doesn’t exist happened.
Probably it happened before, not just yesterday, but when doubting thoughts came, they were “believed”. Despite SEEing, there wasn’t any thought about that it has happened, just doubting thoughts (which were “taken as truth”).

But, after investigating you inquiry about my statement that “in theory it is clear to me”, something clicked. This investigation and the recognition that when the fingers touch the buttons on laptop, the only real “thing” is just the sensation itself, there is no laptop, no fingers, just the sensation, lead to the conclusion that “I” really doesn’t exist. There is no subject, no object, just the sensation. No “I”.

Later, “I” did some random reading on the forum, and found these questions:

Tyler wrote in one of the reads:
Is I the thinker of thoughts?
Is I the feeler of feelings?
Is I the doer of actions?
Is I the body you see when you look at the mirror?
Is I the brain or any other organ in the body?
Is I the body or the owner of this body?
Is I the decider or controller of “your life”?
Is I the owner of “your life”?
Is I the experiencer of experiences?
Is I something other than a word used to communicate?
Is I your emotional reactions?
Is I the observer making this investigation happen or the seeker that started it?
Is I the hearer of sounds?
Is I the looker behind your eyes?
Is I the taster of flavours?
Is I the smeller of smells?
Is I what experiences the texture of what is touched?

“My” answers all of these questions is no with no doubt.

Another question asked by Ilona on the forum:
“Can you go back to believing that Myles is a separate entity with free will and in control of what happens to him?”

The answer is no.
However, doubting thoughts still arise, “what if just one belief replaced the other” but they are seen just as thoughts.

Because getting lost in thoughts happens again and again until conditioning is changed. When it is Realized that however many years of conditioning and reinforcement of conditioning takes a re-wiring of the brain to change, an acceptance can settle in, which allows a peace, a surrender to happen. Have a look at this video for a fuller explanation of this;

This acceptance is started to settle in.
I have seen this video a couple of days ago, pretty interesting and useful.

what are beliefs ?
Are they a particular 'type' of thought ?
A thought that is responded to in a particular way ?

Believes are thoughts about something that is believed to be true without examining it. We can say that beliefs are a particular type of thoughts and they have a stronger impact than simple labelling thoughts, because beliefs can trigger associated emotions, and they are part of our sense of identity.

Vivien wrote:
“I am” confused. There are assumptions and expectations what liberation would feels like.

Vince wrote:
Please list your current assumptions and expectations.

It’s a bit hard to do list them, because what expectations was yesterday morning, not all of them is there today. Nevertheless, the list would be:

1. A liberated being is never lost in the content of a thought again, or maximum just for a second (this belief is not valid any more, and this was the strongest).

2. The vision will be somehow different that non-separation can be literally seen by the eyes  (this belief is not valid any more)

3. That an enlightened being is somehow “special”, meaning that they “emanate” some sort of peace. This belief is not totally gone, since “I” can sense the peace when I watch some so called enlightened beings, like Katie Davis, Gangaji, Eckhart Tolle.

4. A liberated being doesn’t suffer any more. They still can experience frustration, pain, anger, they can experience the emotions but without being lost in them for long, because the emotions can be experienced simply as sensations. (this belief is still there)

5. The seeking of enlightenment ends in liberation. (this belief is still there) However, the seeking is a conditioning, so it could be there for some time, until the conditioning is over, right?

6. End of fear of death, because the fearful thought can be seen only as thought and the fear as an emotion -sensation in the body (this belief is still there). However, if being lost in the content of a thought happens, the fear can arise until it is recognized only as a thought.

6. Previously I had lots of negative fantasies too, but most of them are gone. There is one of them which still has some remnant of it, that is being afraid of becoming a vegetable, not being able to sustain physically myself, because of the experienced oneness, or because of lost of interest in everything, no motivation to do anything. This belief shifted from being a fantasy about full enlightenment to a fantasy about mystical experience (that can last from a few seconds up to some years in rare cases).

Currently, “I” spend more than half of my waking hours being lost in a content of thoughts and stories. However, this dreaming is frequently (hundred times a day) intermitted with short (from a second to 10 seconds) seeing. In the last 24 hours there is an obsessive thinking about that “this happened to me, I’ve seen through the illusion of the self” with intermittent seeing. It’s so strong, that I woke up in the middle of the night, and could not fall asleep for hours. There was some frustration about it, but with some underlying acceptance that this how it is now.

The Buddhists refer to awakening as stream entry. (and you are up to your knees)

I’m not sure about the meaning of “you are up to your knees” expression (English is not my first language). Does this mean that I’m deep in?

Thank you for your help Vince and have a nice day,
Vivien

[Vivien]

Hi Vince,

Just a quick question:

WonderFull. This will continue for the rest of your life, although not with the same intensity.
The Buddhists refer to awakening as stream entry. (and you are up to your knees)

Doubt came up with some fear. If the stream entry has happened, this process cannot stop or turn back, right? There is no way back, isn’t it? And it won’t stop here either, right?

Thanks,
Vivien

[vinceschubert]

If the stream entry has happened, this process cannot stop or turn back, right? There is no way back, isn’t it? And it won’t stop here either, right?

Right, right, & right. The Buddhists say that once one foot is placed on the path, that the outcome is inevitable.

Doubt came up with some fear.

Yes, doubt thoughts will arise, but are they more than thoughts. In this case when they evoke fear, you can safely assume that they are trying to protect you. A good way to approach them is as a friend, and ask them what are they attempting to achieve. Take the very first thoughts that arise after the question is asked, as a credible answer. After some consideration, assure them that they are misguided in this case and that there is really nothing to flee from. That the danger is not actual.

love

vince

[Vivien]

Hi Vince,

Yesterday morning I wrote a long post with some question and the list of expectation before the second short post later. I assume you haven't seen it, so I've just quoted the whole stuff here. Could you please comment on this too?

Thank you very much,
Vivien

Hi Vince,

After I wrote you yesterday, something clicked. The full SEEing that the “I” doesn’t exist happened.
Probably it happened before, not just yesterday, but when doubting thoughts came, they were “believed”. Despite SEEing, there wasn’t any thought about that it has happened, just doubting thoughts (which were “taken as truth”).

But, after investigating you inquiry about my statement that “in theory it is clear to me”, something clicked. This investigation and the recognition that when the fingers touch the buttons on laptop, the only real “thing” is just the sensation itself, there is no laptop, no fingers, just the sensation, lead to the conclusion that “I” really doesn’t exist. There is no subject, no object, just the sensation. No “I”.

Later, “I” did some random reading on the forum, and found these questions:

Tyler wrote in one of the reads:
Is I the thinker of thoughts?
Is I the feeler of feelings?
Is I the doer of actions?
Is I the body you see when you look at the mirror?
Is I the brain or any other organ in the body?
Is I the body or the owner of this body?
Is I the decider or controller of “your life”?
Is I the owner of “your life”?
Is I the experiencer of experiences?
Is I something other than a word used to communicate?
Is I your emotional reactions?
Is I the observer making this investigation happen or the seeker that started it?
Is I the hearer of sounds?
Is I the looker behind your eyes?
Is I the taster of flavours?
Is I the smeller of smells?
Is I what experiences the texture of what is touched?

“My” answers all of these questions is no with no doubt.

Another question asked by Ilona on the forum:
“Can you go back to believing that Myles is a separate entity with free will and in control of what happens to him?”

The answer is no.
However, doubting thoughts still arise, “what if just one belief replaced the other” but they are seen just as thoughts.

Because getting lost in thoughts happens again and again until conditioning is changed. When it is Realized that however many years of conditioning and reinforcement of conditioning takes a re-wiring of the brain to change, an acceptance can settle in, which allows a peace, a surrender to happen. Have a look at this video for a fuller explanation of this;

This acceptance is started to settle in.
I have seen this video a couple of days ago, pretty interesting and useful.

what are beliefs ?
Are they a particular 'type' of thought ?
A thought that is responded to in a particular way ?

Believes are thoughts about something that is believed to be true without examining it. We can say that beliefs are a particular type of thoughts and they have a stronger impact than simple labelling thoughts, because beliefs can trigger associated emotions, and they are part of our sense of identity.

Vivien wrote:
“I am” confused. There are assumptions and expectations what liberation would feels like.

Vince wrote:
Please list your current assumptions and expectations.

It’s a bit hard to do list them, because what expectations was yesterday morning, not all of them is there today. Nevertheless, the list would be:

1. A liberated being is never lost in the content of a thought again, or maximum just for a second (this belief is not valid any more, and this was the strongest).

2. The vision will be somehow different that non-separation can be literally seen by the eyes  (this belief is not valid any more)

3. That an enlightened being is somehow “special”, meaning that they “emanate” some sort of peace. This belief is not totally gone, since “I” can sense the peace when I watch some so called enlightened beings, like Katie Davis, Gangaji, Eckhart Tolle.

4. A liberated being doesn’t suffer any more. They still can experience frustration, pain, anger, they can experience the emotions but without being lost in them for long, because the emotions can be experienced simply as sensations. (this belief is still there)

5. The seeking of enlightenment ends in liberation. (this belief is still there) However, the seeking is a conditioning, so it could be there for some time, until the conditioning is over, right?

6. End of fear of death, because the fearful thought can be seen only as thought and the fear as an emotion -sensation in the body (this belief is still there). However, if being lost in the content of a thought happens, the fear can arise until it is recognized only as a thought.

6. Previously I had lots of negative fantasies too, but most of them are gone. There is one of them which still has some remnant of it, that is being afraid of becoming a vegetable, not being able to sustain physically myself, because of the experienced oneness, or because of lost of interest in everything, no motivation to do anything. This belief shifted from being a fantasy about full enlightenment to a fantasy about mystical experience (that can last from a few seconds up to some years in rare cases).

Currently, “I” spend more than half of my waking hours being lost in a content of thoughts and stories. However, this dreaming is frequently (hundred times a day) intermitted with short (from a second to 10 seconds) seeing. In the last 24 hours there is an obsessive thinking about that “this happened to me, I’ve seen through the illusion of the self” with intermittent seeing. It’s so strong, that I woke up in the middle of the night, and could not fall asleep for hours. There was some frustration about it, but with some underlying acceptance that this how it is now.

The Buddhists refer to awakening as stream entry. (and you are up to your knees)

I’m not sure about the meaning of “you are up to your knees” expression (English is not my first language). Does this mean that I’m deep in?

Thank you for your help Vince and have a nice day,
Vivien

Yes, doubt thoughts will arise, but are they more than thoughts. In this case when they evoke fear, you can safely assume that they are trying to protect you.

The fear that arises sometimes is due to the thoughts that what if this process stops or turns back and the suffering will come back. It is a fear of suffering.

[vinceschubert]

Could you please comment on this too?

Ok, some have been 'dealt' with. i will respond to those that seem currently relevant. If i miss any that you feel should be attended to, please ask (again).

Believes are thoughts about something that is believed to be true without examining it.

Yes, very well SEEn. They are thoughts that are given permission to be acted on without conscious attention. Consequentially, they are expressions of the story of Self. You could say they are dramatization of identification.

Nevertheless, the list would be:

Those that are no longer believed are all good. Good seeing through them.

3. That an enlightened being is somehow “special”, meaning that they “emanate” some sort of peace. This belief is not totally gone, since “I” can sense the peace when I watch some so called enlightened beings, like Katie Davis, Gangaji, Eckhart Tolle.

Two things arise with this one. Firstly, what you sense is without doubt the result of your own story. They may be accurate (or not), but as you don't experience those people directly you can't know. Secondly, The "sense of peace" is very likely something that has 'hinted' itself to you. Try this; Think of those people and what peace may be like for them, then scan yourself to see if there isn't a 'state' that might be described as peace..

4. A liberated being doesn’t suffer any more. They still can experience frustration, pain, anger, they can experience the emotions but without being lost in them for long, because the emotions can be experienced simply as sensations. (this belief is still there)

This is probably a reasonable expectation. Suffering is the result of attachment & without an actual Self there is nothing for these emotions to 'stick' to. ...but once again, conditioning needs to be dropped, and will be as these attachments are recognized.

5. The seeking of enlightenment ends in liberation. (this belief is still there) However, the seeking is a conditioning, so it could be there for some time, until the conditioning is over, right?

i have to say here, that as unique as every human is, so each 'awakening' is unique.
For vince and many others i have spoken to, seeking stops. Not that something is found, but that What IS, is accepted. Surrendered to. ..but at this point a continued 'falling' is seen to happen. There is no end to this adventure.

6. End of fear of death, because the fearful thought can be seen only as thought and the fear as an emotion -sensation in the body (this belief is still there). However, if being lost in the content of a thought happens, the fear can arise until it is recognized only as a thought.

i have heard others say that this it true for a variety of reasons. That there is no I to die, seems to be the most stated reason. If you examine the IDEA of death, it becomes obvious that it is only an idea. We can discuss (investigate this more later)

There is one of them which still has some remnant of it, that is being afraid of becoming a vegetable, not being able to sustain physically myself, because of the experienced oneness, or because of lost of interest in everything, no motivation to do anything.

Some do experience what is described as a "dark night of the soul". Others experience nihilism. vince experienced neither. There is a story here that the default condition of the human organism is joy and happiness. Certainly here there is much Wonder as life-ing happens.

There was some frustration about it, but with some underlying acceptance that this how it is now.

Yes, it evolves. Changes. No experience is permanent. ALL is impermanent.

Does this mean that I’m deep in?

Yes, you are well on your way.

Thank you for your help Vince and have a nice day,

Thank you for this gift to vince, & it's a WonderFull day (and night)

The fear that arises sometimes is due to the thoughts that what if this process stops or turns back and the suffering will come back. It is a fear of suffering.

So ask yourself, "What am i attached to ?"

love

vince

[Vivien]

Hi Vince,

Vivien wrote:
3. That an enlightened being is somehow “special”, meaning that they “emanate” some sort of peace. This belief is not totally gone, since “I” can sense the peace when I watch some so called enlightened beings, like Katie Davis, Gangaji, Eckhart Tolle.

Vince wrote: Two things arise with this one. Firstly, what you sense is without doubt the result of your own story. They may be accurate (or not), but as you don't experience those people directly you can't know.

Yes, thanks for pointing this out. “I” can see it as a story now.

When I’m out in the nature, there is much more peace and presence that is experienced. Oh yes, I got it. :) There isn’t any single object out there (like a tree) that “does something” what “I” can experience. There is just the interaction, the experience, what can be labelled as peace.

The "sense of peace" is very likely something that has 'hinted' itself to you. Try this; Think of those people and what peace may be like for them, then scan yourself to see if there isn't a 'state' that might be described as peace..

Yes, “you’re right”. :) The sense of peace emerged in this body, not because they emanate something but probably because what they are talking about triggered some memories and emotions about a particular experience “I had” before.

If you examine the IDEA of death, it becomes obvious that it is only an idea. We can discuss (investigate this more later)

Yes, I’d like to, maybe I write about it tomorrow.

Vivien wrote:
The fear that arises sometimes is due to the thoughts that what if this process stops or turns back and the suffering will come back. It is a fear of suffering.

Vince wrote:
So ask yourself, "What am i attached to ?"

What am I attached to? To a belief that “I’ve suffered enough, now should come the time without suffering”. In the story of Vivien there was a great suffering since her early childhood, with a range from bad to intolerable suffering with a wish to die (because of not finding other way out of the suffering). So there is a belief that something has to be done to stop the suffering otherwise “I have to die”. I got to the point in my life, where the suffering was so intolerable that initiated this seeking “no matter what I have to find the way to get rid of the suffering”. And the only solution that came up was either to die literally or “to die as a me”. And since there was a fear of death simultaneously, the second option won. But the funny thing is that in both cases “I have to die”. :) OK, there isn’t anything to die, because the “I” has never existed, but from the point of the “I” it seems that it has to die.


So, when I am lost in the content of a story, this belief is still “alive”.


Yesterday, there was a seeing and recognition that without thoughts suffering literally doesn’t exist.
I was lost in a story for about 5-10 minutes about why the shop assistant in a shop did this or that and why didn’t do it in my way. Funny :) After I left the shop the seeing through the story happened and the suffering (or rather discomfort) was gone. A few minutes later being lost in the story happened again for a few seconds. After seeing through the discomfort was gone again. It become obvious that without the thoughts or being lost in the thoughts suffering doesn’t exist.


I came to the conclusion that there are two types of suffering (at least for me). One of them is the suffering “caused” by beliefs about the self, like unworthy, bad, shameful, etc. The other one is the suffering or rather discomfort that is “caused” by being lost in a thought or a story. The first one seems to be gone for me, but there is a story about it, a fear ‘what if it my come back’. The second one, the suffering “caused” by being lost in a story happens several times a day.

Thank you for this gift to vince, & it's a WonderFull day (and night)

:) I had the assumption that after the seeing of the illusion of the self happened this conversation would end. But you haven’t ended it, and I’m really grateful for it. Thank you :)

Thanks,
Vivien

[vinceschubert]

'Morning Viv,

There is just the interaction, the experience, what can be labelled as peace.

This is always present & just needs to be noticed, even when there is pain or discomfort. Suffering is the result of the story overlaid on pain or discomfort. When the story is noticed, so it the peace.

What am I attached to? To a belief that “I’ve suffered enough, now should come the time without suffering”.

A great story, aye ?
Is there (yet) a story about acceptance of THIS ? ..of what IS ?

So, when I am lost in the content of a story, this belief is still “alive”.

No, it is the conditioned result of when the belief was 'alive'. Examination will show very quickly that the belief is dead.

A few minutes later being lost in the story happened again for a few seconds. After seeing through the discomfort was gone again. It become obvious that without the thoughts or being lost in the thoughts suffering doesn’t exist.

A classic case of how the conditioning kicks in, and how the seeing instantly aborts it.

But you haven’t ended it

Ha yes, i don't make a decision to end it. Ending just happens when it does. A point comes when the 'final' routine kicks in. After that you are invited to join some Facebook groups where the journey continues.

love

vince

[Vivien]

Good morning Vince,

Vivien wrote:
What am I attached to? To a belief that “I’ve suffered enough, now should come the time without suffering”.

Vince wrote:
A great story, aye ?
Is there (yet) a story about acceptance of THIS ? ..of what IS ?

I’m not sure what you are asking here. Are you asking whether is a new story that I have to accept of what IS? I’m not sure, because the acceptance of what IS happens spontaneously when it happens. There are thoughts about it when and after it happened.

Vivien wrote:
So, when I am lost in the content of a story, this belief is still “alive”.

Vince: No, it is the conditioned result of when the belief was 'alive'. Examination will show very quickly that the belief is dead.

Maybe there is a difference how beliefs “operate” before and after seeing through the IDEA of beliefs.

1. Before the belief that ‘beliefs of thoughts represent the truth’ is not seen through, when there is a belief, let’s say, that ‘I should eat meat because it is healthy’ (belief A) is questioned because I read a book about vegetarianism which convinced me the opposite, a new belief developed that ‘eating meat is unhealthy’ (belief B). However, after a year, let’s say, I read another book that is full of scientific “proofs” that not eating meat is unhealthy, so I can go back believing belief A, because the belief in ‘the validity of beliefs’ hadn’t been seen through.

2. However, after seeing through the belief that ‘beliefs of thoughts represent the truth’ has happened, if belief A has been seen through there is no way of going back to believing it because the content of belief A is recognized just as a belief and there is no belief in beliefs any more.

So the conditioned result of the previous belief still can happen, but just as a condition and when it’s recognised it’s seen that this belief is already dead.

Thank you Vince,
Vivien