Ready for a guide

[erah]

Hi Paulo :)

I was hoping to write earlier in the day, but it was an especially long busy day, so I'm doing my best now to investigate now before bedtime. Reading through my answer below, I am feeling that it's not finished - I see more clearly what you mean by needing things that are written here to be true in direct experience right now - and some of the words seem to hit the mark and others don't quite yet... But time is up for today, so I'll just let things not be perfect, and send this as is anyway :)

First - thank you for the video - the message was very clear and helpful. I have to admit that at some point while watching it, I did jump up when hearing him say: "...and the thought appeared to you... did you chose your thought?" Even he used the word "you" - I know that language is dual by its nature, and "I" is a convenient label that is very useful for functioning in and speaking of the world, but still I wondered - what did he mean by that word? What was he referring to?

Define what you mean here by 'I'

Since I promised to write from direct experience - I am resisting the pull to go back in my mind and tell about how things seemed yesterday when I wrote that sentence you quoted, but reconnect with how things are here and now.

So - now - trying to define "I"... I don't know... I can't do it. "I" is a sense of existence - being-ness. Awareness of thing taking place - sounds... thoughts... breath... body... There's a knowing - 'I' am that knowing. It's like when the computer is 'on' versus 'off' - something here is 'on' - alive and awake. But I can't tell you what that something is - I just don't know - it's undefinable right now. I am seeing now that maybe this knowing is somehow being confused with the idea of a 'person'. Just because there is this undefined knowing here, doesn't mean that there is a person here - some creature - that is knowing... But then this sense of existence feels so so much like "me" - when I strip down everything else - body, thoughts, feelings - that's what's left somehow. "I" feel like that. But oh - it's not quite a 'knowing' - as in labeling, like thoughts do. It's a different kind of knowing - a quieter one...
I think I am understanding better now how to investigate in the moment - that's a good thing at least, even if the investigation is not quite done yet :)

Best,
Erah

[Paulo]

Hi Erah,

It's useful to write out ideas in order to clarify them for yourself. But that can often be a distraction from just looking. Here we will focus on addressing the questions at hand, and nothing else.

I did jump up when hearing him say: "...and the thought appeared to you... did you chose your thought?" Even he used the word "you"

In my experience the use of the word 'you' refers to a thought ABOUT reality. There is no 'you' or 'I' in reality at all. Reality is instantaneous and nothing is preserved.

Think of that old zen saying - 'you can never step in the same river twice'. By the time you put your foot in the river the second time the piece of water you stepped in first is somewhere downstream. Similarly with reality - by the time you recognize that something has happened, it's already gone, and what we're dealing with are just thoughts ABOUT reality.


Choose a moment during the day when you will not be disturbed for 20 minutes or so. Sit silently and just be aware of the breath. Allow all other sensations and thoughts to just arise, stay awhile, and then drift away.

Where is the 'I' in that exercise?

Paulo.

Here's a nice little video for you to watch -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9mQ8pNlfB0

[erah]

Hi Paulo,

Thank you for your answer :). I will have a bit of time later today to do the exercise, and will write back to report :) But for now - just reading your email, this came to me, and I feel compelled somehow to ask about it:

What really confuses me, and even makes me feel frustrated sometimes - is that all those teachers (including the one in the previous video) are referring to that true 'I' or 'you' as being awareness - not the thought of 'I', but the direct experience of 'I'. But here - we seem never speak of this awareness or look into it. This awareness is the closest thing I can find to the feeling of 'I' - if I was to define 'I' based on direct experience. But somehow, I am getting here over and over that this is not quite the right answer... There is a thought 'I' - definitely, but there is also an experience of being here - of being, of knowing - it's not personal, but still 'this' is here. In LU - we seem to be taking a different angle from all else that I hearing - and so I am confused.... :). Since all those teachers seem to point to this awareness, I find myself wondering - is what they are saying is wrong? I have been on this path for too long perhaps, and so despite the desire to just look at things directly, some subtle ideas may be coloring/distorting my view and perception (like a 'blind spot'), and this notion of awareness is one of them - and so I just wanted to ask about this, to help me to move past this confusion... :).

Best,
Erah

[Paulo]

Hi Erah,

I totally get your confusion, the wikipedia page on non-duality lists more than a dozen different versions of the concept. So who's right and who's wrong? Who has the truth? - these are the questions I hear you asking. Well, the only definition, or understanding of 'I' that matters is your own. Period.

There are all kinds of folks here on LU, from so many different cultures, traditions, and understandings. Yet the one question that drives them all - what is it that's seeking? and in your case - What is it that's typing and asking me to clarify an uncertainty?

Forget the teachers for now, all they are doing is sharing their particular experience of seeing. What we do here is slightly different - not asking you to accept any particular version of reality, but simply asking you to take a good honest look at what IS in reality.

Trying to fit experience into a structure or model, or compare what you've experiencing to the experience of others is the mind grasping, and trying to organise reality into a nice little schema. That's what it does best - it organises, classifies, files away in a filing cabinet. But this is not allowing you see reality. So, let your own experience be your teacher, and simply LOOK at what's right in front of you all along.

And if you feel frustrated, just let that be there too - because that's what's actually happening in that moment.

Paulo.

[erah]

Hi Paulo,

I am so very grateful for your response - thank you for speaking about it all, and redirecting me. Ok - I will let it all be :-).

What is it that's typing and asking me to clarify an uncertainty?

Well - if uncertainty and frustration and confusion are just 'allowed to be' (as they are here now), then clearly there is no one here behind these things in this moment - they just are. I see that. Even these words - 'I see that' - are out there - separate from me - 'I' didn't make them come.

Choose a moment during the day when you will not be disturbed for 20 minutes or so. Sit silently and just be aware of the breath. Allow all other sensations and thoughts to just arise, stay awhile, and then drift away; Where is the 'I' in that exercise?

Thank you for this exercise - I did it - everything just comes and goes on its own - thoughts, breaths, sounds... very naturally. Somehow the question in the end baffles me though - I feel stuck... I don't know how to answer it. Even though I understand the words, it somehow doesn't make sense... That's where I'm at right now somehow :)

Best!
Erah

[Paulo]

Hi Erah,

separate from me

We've arrived at this question once again - what is this 'me'?

Somehow the question in the end baffles me though - I feel stuck... I don't know how to answer it. Even though I understand the words, it somehow doesn't make sense... That's where I'm at right now somehow :)

Let's phrase things a different way -

Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

Paulo

[erah]

Hi Paulo :)

"Separate from me" - We’ve arrived at this question once again - what is this 'me'?

In this case - “Me” referred to the knowing/awareness of the experience being noted (in that case - the appearance of words) - "I" was that seeing/knowing.

Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever

This is still hard :). I even delayed my response a bit, hoping some definite answer would come to me, but it's evening now, and I still don't know quite how to look at that... I see how all the components that make me a 'person' - body, mind, perceptions - are arising and passing on their own. I also see that everything that is here now, without exception, is somehow sharing the same one space - co-existing in this moment, so in this sense, there is no separation. And still, there seem to be a notion of a separate being here - although I can't point to what or where it is... It's a contradiction for sure. It's much easier with the 'my' and 'mine' - I can easily see how those things that are "my" and "mine" are not own by me - never have and never will - it's an imaginary relationship - an idea that is superimposed on reality. But the "I" evades me... :-). Thinking about this sense of confusion, one of the questions I find that I am having is - what is actually meant by the words 'separate entity?' It makes sense on some level - of course, but then more deeply - it also puzzles me, and so maybe I am not understanding this completely - and need to investigate more...

Best :)
Erah

[Paulo]

Hi Erah,

But the "I" evades me... :-). Thinking about this sense of confusion, one of the questions I find that I am having is - what is actually meant by the words 'separate entity?'

Speaking in generalities, most people believe that they are a separate, discreet, and independent being that makes choices, takes actions, and exists separate from everything else. If you look at the Wikipedia page on dualism you will see many different versions of this story, from being a 'soul' or 'spirit' inside a physical body, to being a separate biological being.

Have a look again at the FAQ page here - http://liberationunleashed.com/faq/ Also, the Gateless Gatecrashers book may help clarify for you what we do here - http://liberationunleashed.com/wp-conte ... ashers.pdf

In this case - “Me” referred to the knowing/awareness of the experience being noted (in that case - the appearance of words) - "I" was that seeing/knowing.

Is that awareness separate from the experience being noted, or is it a thought after the experience has happened that 'something' was aware?

Paulo.

[erah]

Hi Paulo,

Thank you :)

Have a look again at the FAQ page here - http://liberationunleashed.com/faq/ Also, the Gateless Gatecrashers book may help clarify for you what we do here - http://liberationunleashed.com/wp-conte ... ashers.pdf

You know - I read over all this before I joined. I read all the questions and answers, and they matched everything that I have heard before. And then I read over a few of the stories at the time as well.... I am going to admit something now - because this is about being honest, so I hope saying this will help me somehow... :). I had a really hard time reading through those stories the first time (and even now) - and initially I didn't get past the second or third one. I'm so very embarrassed to admit this, but somehow - it seemed shameful not to know the truth and to need help. More than that - somehow it made me special not to need help to figure this out. If I needed help, then I was just like anyone else - all the rest of those 'seekers' - it was too shameful not to know... But even though reading the stories is still hard for me (oh yes - I am also jealous of those people who have realized the truth - I have just realized this!), I have noticed something recently - a change. When I watched that video you sent me of Rupert Spira - for the first time ever, I didn't feel a sense of contempt for the person he was helping; instead I felt for that person... I was that person - I need help too... I felt compassion for them - for their yearning to know that is mingled up with great confusion. And instead of feeling like needing help is going to lead me to a lifetime of dependency on someone, I felt that maybe this was a necessary step for realizing the truth for me. That there is going to be - by definition - lots of not knowing and seeming sense of confusion - until what needs to be seen is seen.

Perhaps as a side-homework, I should commit to reading one of those stories a day - even though it's hard for me...

Here's another admission - from the question and answer page:

The lucky seeker will come to a point in their search at which the question “Who am I ? ” will emerge. After it has become clear that nothing in the world, no relationship, no possession, no (spiritual) experience, nothing will allow them to finally feel complete, the search turns inward."

This is where I'm at - and I have known this for a while (several years) - there is no longer outward seeking for me. Yes, life continues and I try to better my situation, but I no longer believe that the existential thing that is missing from my life is out there - I don't buy it anymore, and the result is that everything 'out-there' feels a little empty (which sometimes makes it hard to engage in life). But at the same time - that pivotal question - 'who am I?' who is searching? has not yet arose on it's own... I'm a bit embarrassed about that. So I'm hanging in the in-between - not out, but not in... that's where that puzzling feeling comes from. "I" don't know where to turn, and if it's turing in - then something in me is still unsure of what this mans. Sometimes I truly worry that the absence of - or confusion about this question means that I am not one of the 'lucky ones' who will get to know the truth in this lifetime. But - having said that, there is truly - in the whole world - nothing else for me to do but to continue trying - regardless of the outcome. When I don't, I get this hysteric feeling that sometimes keeps me up at night, that this meaningless and puzzling life is ticking away and I am not doing enough to know the truth, before it's over.

Ok - my morning reaction for all this :).

Best!
Erah

[erah]

p.s. - I didn't forget about the second part - here it is:

Is that awareness separate from the experience being noted, or is it a thought after the experience has happened that 'something' was aware?

At the time, the awareness that was noting felt separate from the experience being noted - as if there was a space between the noting and what was being noted. But still this awareness did seem just another experience. Afterward this whole thing was done, there was a thought - acknowledging excitedly that awareness just happened, as you've said (and I guess that thought stated that this awareness was 'me'?).... But it's hard to go back and confirm exactly how this unfolded, because awareness doesn't come by as often, it seems - and so there are not many opportunities to see how it's all working there... All I can say is that 'I' surely can't make the experience of awareness come - it just pops up on its own from time to time. It's funny - I did have an experience recently that I'd like to share - I was falling asleep, and right before, I felt a sharp pain in my stomach. Although in part, I knew all was well - there was a momentary fear there - and a thought came about the end of life, and what I needed to do to continue surviving. When it suddenly occurred to me that - "'I' am just a thought - and as a thought - I have no real power to actually stop this body from dying, if it is its time for it to go - 'I' have no power to do anything - I am just words...". Just wanted to share that - maybe its relevant somehow :).

Thank you again!
Erah

[Paulo]

Hi Erah,

You're back in thinking mode again. Far, far too much thinking ABOUT what's happening. Lovely prose, but a complete distraction from the work of just LOOKING.

"'I' am just a thought - and as a thought - I have no real power to actually stop this body from dying, if it is its time for it to go - 'I' have no power to do anything - I am just words...". Just wanted to share that - maybe its relevant somehow :)

Don't say 'maybe it's relevant' - you tell me - What IS it's relevance, what was learned from that experience?
(Just a one sentence response on this one).

Paulo.

[erah]

Hi Paulo :)

What I've learned is that under certain experiential conditions - the 'thought' nature of the 'I' - its dream-like quality - its lack of actual reality and actual power/control - is clearly seen.  In this case, there had to be some death threat to have this be accessible.  

As for the long entry - sorry... :-).  It's actually funny (to me) - I just read a few of those chapters in the LU book  - no one liners there, but lots of long winding narratives...  So I thought maybe that's what I'm supposed to do - write more... :-).   I guess not... :). Short is very ok! :)

Best,
Erah

[Paulo]

Hi Erah,

What I've learned is that under certain experiential conditions - the 'thought' nature of the 'I' - its dream-like quality - its lack of actual reality and actual power/control - is clearly seen.

And what does this tell you about the nature of 'I', 'me', and 'you'?

Remember, the 'thought' of 'I' will still be there for those who have seen through the illusion of self. It's part of experience after all. Difference being that the belief in a separate self is seen as just a belief, in the same way as a dream is seen as being just a dream when you awake in the morning.

So I thought maybe that's what I'm supposed to do - write more

The phrase 'I thought' says it all here. This process isn't about matching your experience to some 'ideal', or someone else's experience, that's thinking ABOUT what 'should be' instead of LOOKING at what is.

Paulo.

[erah]

Thank you Paulo :)

Remember, the 'thought' of 'I' will still be there for those who have seen through the illusion of self. It's part of experience after all. Difference being that the belief in a separate self is seen as just a belief, in the same way as a dream is seen as being just a dream when you awake in the morning.

.

I know I promised short message, but this struck a serious chord with me, so I need to elaborate a bit - I believe that this is relevant.

I have seen once - a long time ago - that a very depressed feeling that came through was nothing but a certain bodily experience coupled with a believed thought about the sadness and what it meant for me and my life. I saw clearly in a flashing moment that this thought wasn't me - and it freed me from a life-long depression for about 10 years. It's not that sadness didn't come - it did - I just didn't believe in the information it was giving me anymore. And I have to say that overtime, the arising of this sad feeling has also decreased. All that took for this to happen was a brief milli-second of clear seeing. I have never had this clear seeing of emotions again, but the understanding remained.

Over the past year, I somehow began experimenting with other emotions - this time in the context of relationships (not intentionally experimenting - I was just suffering too much, and wanted to change, and was willing to try anything). I came by this quote by a tibetan teacher (Kalu Rinpoche), equating the nature of emotions to a rainbow: "a rainbow, as a whole spectrum of color, is very apparent and very clear, but it is not solid. You can put your hand right through it." Because of my tiny past seeing - I understood this - it made sense right away, even though I haven't directly seen any emotion but sadness to have this quality. Just on faith really - based on the little that I have seen, and trusting that everything emotional is working in the same way - I started intentionally not believing the messages of various other negative emotions that arose in the context of certain relationships - and seeing what happened. I would tell myself in the midst of an emotional episode: "I know this seems real, but it is not - this is not giving me accurate information about the situation." I would just ground in that understanding, despite all the opposing evidence - doing so gave space for the emotion to be as it was, but allowed me to not believe in the story that came with it. It was scary at times to not believe what my mind and body were telling me, but in the end - doing this has had some pretty significant outcomes in terms of feeing me from certain patterns of behavior.

This is all a description of very concrete experiences I have had. After reading your quoted sentences above, I am wondering if the "I" thought is the same as emotions. Specific to the "I" - I have seen something here about the dream-like nature of it. But unlike my seeing of depression - this seeing of "I" wasn't deep enough to on my own - not believe this "I" thought anymore - to have that same separation from it that I naturally experienced from depression after seeing depression for what it was. At this point - I would still have to take it on faith to some extent that "I" doesn't exist, though I have more evidence now.

Thank you again!
Erah

[Paulo]

Erah, you really do need to start focusing on direct experience, this is what we're doing here, nothing else.

What I've learned is that under certain experiential conditions - the 'thought' nature of the 'I' - its dream-like quality - its lack of actual reality and actual power/control - is clearly seen.

And what does this tell you about the nature of 'I', 'me', and 'you'?

At this point - I would still have to take it on faith to some extent that "I" doesn't exist

You've looked everywhere in direct experience, where in direct experience is this 'I' you're talking of?


Paulo.