will you guide me please Ilona?

[blueg]

hiya Pete

Just a quick note to say thanks for your response and that I'll check in again tomorrow. I seem to be coming down with something, not feeling very well today.

bluex

[moondog]

Hi blue,

I'm sorry that you're not feeling well and hope you're a lot better tomorrow. Look forward to hearing from you then.

Lots of love,

Pete

[blueg]

Hiya Pete

The last few days I have been somewhat besieged by 'bad' feelings of unworthiness, shame etc. which are familiar and from time to time get a hold on me. Partly because of also being busy with work over the weekend I've struggled to remember to come back to my DE and got caught believing the story.

Have you been able to find, a ‘self’ that is the ‘experiencer’?

When I sit still like now and look, I can't.

Or a self that is the doer, or can control what happens?

no

Or a self that ‘makes’ decisions?

no

Or a self who ‘does the thinking’?

no

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?

yes

Are the five body senses made to arise or experienced by this ‘self’?

no

Is there a self ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’?

I notice some hesitation in answering this question. I've not really thought about it like that.

Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?

I know this is true from my direct experience and there are doubting thoughts present.

Are there any doubts about seeing through the illusion of separate self?

I don't doubt the simplicity of seeing that there is no separate self. What I do experience are thoughts which have expectations and judgements about how 'I' should be consequent upon this seeing. I know this is influenced by a totally fulfilling experience I had about eight years ago which arose unexpectedly out of an 'ego' experience of utter failure and can tend to feed expectations of what that seeing should illicit in me now. Yet I can see as I write this that there is only what is in the present.

Thanks for your support
bluex

[moondog]

Hi blue,

Thanks for your replies to my list of sweep-up questions. As I've already said, the questions are really just to see if there are any areas that need clarifying or looking into more deeply and, principally, to see whether there are any significant doubts as to whether you've seen through the illusion of a separate self. By significant, I don't mean the kind of thoughts that quite regularly pop up before, during and after gating that keep saying things like 'you haven't really seen', 'this isn't as different as I expected' etc. They're experienced by many of us. It's only if, when a person looks, they're really not at all sure whether there's a separate self or not, and/or they take the doubting thoughts seriously or can't dismiss them as rubbish, that there's a need for more deep looking into direct experience.

All this is about is seeing that there is no separate self-entity, and never has been, nothing else. When we're both happy that you know for a fact that there's no separate 'you', I'll ask you a set of 'final questions' to conclude this process (although there's plenty more opening up and seeing after this, if that's what 'you' want). But before I put that set of questions to you, I need to be absolutely sure what you're saying, so please don't mind if I seem over-picky, blue. Most of your answers are spot on.

Have you been able to find, a ‘self’ that is the ‘experiencer’?

When I sit still like now and look, I can't

This question is about whether you can find a separate self that is seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling and touching/feeling. When you did this exercise earlier you said you could not. Is that still the case?

Is there a self ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’?

I notice some hesitation in answering this question. I've not really thought about it like that.

It's perhaps more simple than it seems. If, when you look in direct experience, you can't find a separate self- entity, it follows that there can't be a self 'inside' that's somehow separate from the world 'out there', that's all. It might still feel that way after a lifetime of thinking that way, but you now know it isn't because you know there's no separate 'you'.

Does that help you now to answer the question?

Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?

I know this is true from my direct experience and there are doubting thoughts present.

Excellent. This shows that you already understand what I was saying at the start of this post.

Are there any doubts about seeing through the illusion of separate self?

I don't doubt the simplicity of seeing that there is no separate self. What I do experience are thoughts which have expectations and judgements about how 'I' should be consequent upon this seeing. I know this is influenced by a totally fulfilling experience I had about eight years ago which arose unexpectedly out of an 'ego' experience of utter failure and can tend to feed expectations of what that seeing should illicit in me now. Yet I can see as I write this that there is only what is in the present.

So you know, from experience, that there's no separate self, and so there's no thinker of thoughts. You also know that thoughts continue to arise telling you that this seeing no-self isn't what you expected it to be.

Bearing in mind my comments at the beginning of this post regarding significant doubts, please say whether you now have any doubts about seeing through the illusion of a separate self.

Pete x

[blueg]

Hiya Pete

Just what I needed, I also feel some of the terrible thoughts and feelings that I referred to beginning to wane for now. It feels liberating to be pinned down to the truth (or unshackled from the illusive thoughts).

This question is about whether you can find a separate self that is seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling and touching/feeling. When you did this exercise earlier you said you could not. Is that still the case?

Yes it's true I still can't find a separate self.

Does that help you now to answer the question?

Is there a self ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’?

No, there's just experiencing.

Bearing in mind my comments at the beginning of this post regarding significant doubts, please say whether you now have any doubts about seeing through the illusion of a separate self. [/quote

No I don't have any doubts about it. And as I write that, just as there's never been a separate self there must have always been a knowing that that is so.??

love bluex

[moondog]

Hi blue,

Just what I needed, I also feel some of the terrible thoughts and feelings that I referred to beginning to wane for now. It feels liberating to be pinned down to the truth (or unshackled from the illusive thoughts).

I'm pleased that helped blue.

please say whether you now have any doubts about seeing through the illusion of a separate self.

No I don't have any doubts about it. And as I write that, just as there's never been a separate self there must have always been a knowing that that is so.??

I'm also happy that you've confirmed so clearly that you've no doubts, both generally, and in any specific areas. It's been a real pleasure help you to see this, and to know this.

So blue, I reckon you're well ready for the final questions. When answering question 5, please give specific and very recent examples from direct experience. Once I get your answers, I'll put them forward for other guides for any comments. Then I'll arrange for you to get access to various aftercare and other groups on Facebook and the LU site. Have you got a Facebook name? If so, either let me know here or, if you prefer, PM it to me.

Always from direct experience.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen?

Please give specific examples from your recent experience.

6) Anything to add?

Pete x

[blueg]

Hiya Pete

Thanks for your reply which I read this morning. I'll reply over the weekend it that's okay, I've had a long day at work and I want to reply when I've more time and space.

bluex

[moondog]

Hi blue,

No problem of course. Looking forward to your answers when you've had time to rest and relax.

Love,

Pete

[blueg]

Hiya Pete

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

Again sitting here, listening to the rain outside, in the stillness, I can answer from direct experience that there isn't a separate me. And the question of was there ever from this place doesn't make sense. T.S. Eliot's words come to mind 'quick, now, here, now, always, a situation of complete simplicity, costing not less than everything'.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

I'm not sure how it starts; when something arises that I don't want to be there or to happen. Like a bad feeling or thought or a very habitual negative commentary about my life. In the last few days, as I've written about, I've been almost overwhelmed by feelings of 'badness' and shame and identifying with a time when I was cruel to someone when I was much younger and the thoughts have proliferated and constrict the life out of my direct experience. Almost. I think that there is some relationship between the process of the dialogue I've been engaged in and this influx of very difficult thoughts and feelings. It's like a torrent. So I become the story of my thoughts. Driving home the other day though a different thought arose which said 'that's not who I am' and like a shaft of light I was able for a moment to see clearly that I am not that story.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue

In a way I've just been describing my most recent experience, which has been really tough. Days earlier I was noticing how much more relaxed I felt, in particular seeing and resting in the knowing that 'I' don't make things happen, which felt a great relief. I also see how powerful thought expectations are about what seeing actually looks like! And that those expectations have nothing to do with the present and take me away from the simplicity.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

I think the gentle reminders that nudge me back into the present and to direct experience. Seeing that there is no controller or decision maker or doer helped me to address the fear that nothing would ever get done, and I connected up to the truth that if there is no self now then there can't have ever been one, and things always have got done.

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen?

No, only thoughts telling me so.

Please give specific examples from your recent experience.

As I think about this now I can see how much at times I believe the thoughts that tell me that I've made choices in the past that are the cause of my present unhappiness. And those thoughts still sometimes take hold of me. There are of course other times when happiness just arises which has nothing whatsoever to do with anything seemingly!

6) Anything to add?

I feel like to door is open to me now to continue looking rather than seeking. I feel love and gratitude to what has been offered to me so freely and generously.

Please let me know if there's more I need to say.

love bluex

[moondog]

Hi blue,

Thank you for you lovely, honest and open replies.

I think that there is some relationship between the process of the dialogue I've been engaged in and this influx of very difficult thoughts and feelings. It's like a torrent.

I agree that very probably is the case. However, as these memories, thought stories of the past, are brought into the light of awareness and seen for what they are, they can be allowed to burn up and fall away now that there is no illusion of a self- entity to feed and feed off them. So I reckon that, uncomfortable though recent days have been, it will have been very cleansing for you blue.

My apologies, I should have asked you the all-new, updated, singing and dancing question 5, which is:

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from recent experience.

And please also give a couple of specific examples, the guides like them. They only need to be simple, everyday events which, before you saw that there's no self-entity, would have been described as you choosing or deciding on a course of action, or controlling events. Now you know that's just not the case, and this question is intended simply to show that you know that through direct experience.

Pete

[blueg]

Hiya Pete

Well the storm has blown through me and passed and for now I feel alive and awake.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from recent experience.

Well on a simple level as I was just cutting and pasting this, I noticed that I reached out and had a drink of the tea I'd just made. In fact I've just done it again. Without making any decision to do so, without any involvement from 'I' or 'me'. In this way of noticing simple everyday actions, on-goingly, it's clear that 'I' am not choosing any of them, moment to moment.

In terms of what I'm responsible for, I realised yesterday that when I was caught up in the powerful and overwhelming bad thoughts and feelings of the last few days that what exacerbated the experience was that 'I' felt responsible for the thoughts and feelings sweeping me along so much, that even that experience shouldn't be happening. Although I couldn't see that at the time, so I'm not really answering from direct experience, I can see now that 'I' didn't make the bad experience happen. And I feel I'm seeing through this new layer of apparent ownership. And right now that does feel liberating.

Another seeing I had today was reading that there isn't an end to suffering but an end to the illusion of there being someone who suffers. That really struck home.

love bluex

[moondog]

Hi blue,

Thanks for the rest of your answers.

I'll now ask the guides to have a look at this thread and will let you know as soon as I can whether they have any queries to clarify anything, as they often do. It's a good idea to check whenever you can, to keep the flow going if necessary. It can take a day or two, or it can be quicker. No worries.

Just a reminder to let me have any Facebook details, if you want. You can PM them, if you prefer.


Pete x

[moondog]

Hi blue,

One of the guides has a few points for clarification:

1) With regard to your answer to QI, he's looking for a more straightforward 'no', rather than your 'No' when listening to the rain outside in the stillness. He says he doesn't mean this flippantly, but does this factor in the equation? Why mention it?

2) He says you have said 'I've been almost overwhelmed by feelings of 'badness' and shame and identifying with a time when I was cruel to someone when I was much younger and the thoughts have proliferated and constrict the life out of my direct experience', and asks, 'What is your opinion of this sentence that you have written, given that you have seen there's no separate self?' He wants to be sure that you now see this as just a thought story.

3) Also, he asks 'What is "your life"?' Again, he's saying, do you now see this as just a thought story?

Pete

[blueg]

Hiya Pete

1) With regard to your answer to QI, he's looking for a more straightforward 'no', rather than your 'No' when listening to the rain outside in the stillness. He says he doesn't mean this flippantly, but does this factor in the equation? Why mention it?

Because the questions came after the instruction 'Always from direct experience' I was answering the question as if it was a new one. So I began by describing my then current direct experience within which there is no self. So no, there isn't and never has been.

'What is your opinion of this sentence that you have written, given that you have seen there's no separate self?' He wants to be sure that you now see this as just a thought story.

I've always known that the belief in a separate self (and for me it was a 'bad' self) has meant I've not been free. I don't fully understand why this kick back happened so intensely, but I always knew it was a thought story. Seeing that there is no self now means that the story hasn't stuck.

3) Also, he asks 'What is "your life"?' Again, he's saying, do you now see this as just a thought story

'My life' has been a very powerful story, restricting me in all sorts of ways. I don't know what my life is now I'm going to see what unfolds.

Please let me know if there are any further questions.
bluex

[moondog]

Hi blue,

I got your PM but your private message receipt has been disabled so I can't reply yet. You can adjust the settings in profile if you want.

In reply to your answer set to his questions, the guide says in reference to your statement "My life' has been a very powerful story, restricting me in all sorts of ways. I don't know what my life is now I'm going to see what unfolds."

'This is unclear to me - How could a story restrict something that has never been?
There is no 'I' in the future that is going to live life or see what unfolds.'

Can you clarify this for him please blue, and say whether you agree with what he says.

Pete x