will you guide me please Ilona?

[moondog]

Hi blue,

No problem. Thanks for letting me know.

Looking forward to hearing from you later.

Pete x

[blueg]

hiya Pete

I'm back.

And can you see in direct experience that these 'other things' that are being done at the same time are also just happening without any doer?

Yes I can see that.

Looking in direct experience, can you find any actions that arise in response to seeing? If so, please describe what happens and how it happens.

I can't see an action that's connected. There's seeing and thinking and then maybe or maybe not an action, but I can see that the action isn't connected to the seeing.

Based solely on direct experience, can you see that, whether thought says that 'you' are doing a particular thing before, during or afterwards, it's just thinking, taking credit on 'your' behalf (as it habitually does) for something it can have no influence on, or real connection with, whatsoever? It's all just smoke and mirrors.

I've been struggling with this today. Noticing persistent thoughts trying to get involved, to sort of try to come between, or create a me separate from what I'm doing. I've experienced quite a bit of waves of fear and somewhat persecutory thoughts ('you'll never be released/see there's no self...bla. bla, not the kind of person you are, bla, bla, bla'). At the same time there's part of me also just noticing more that things happen of their own accord. And I feel I want to drink in and soak up and see into and understand that thinking has no influence on or real connection with what happens.

Cool. Let me know if you've found any actions that aren't as if automatic.

And I can't really find any that aren't – just lots of thinking about it!!!!

bluex

[moondog]

Hi blue,

I've been struggling with this today. Noticing persistent thoughts trying to get involved, to sort of try to come between, or create a me separate from what I'm doing. I've experienced quite a bit of waves of fear and somewhat persecutory thoughts ('you'll never be released/see there's no self...bla. bla, not the kind of person you are, bla, bla, bla'). At the same time there's part of me also just noticing more that things happen of their own accord. And I feel I want to drink in and soak up and see into and understand that thinking has no influence on or real connection with what happens.

All your answers around doing, control and thoughts are clear and straightforward, and there seem to be no problems with seeing that there's just no 'you' there, anywhere. The insistent voice of doubt and discouragement that you mention is a familiar one to people as they reach this point in looking to see whether a separate self exists. As I'm sure you've realised, it's just a rearguard action to try and 'keep things as they are', i.e. veiled by illusion. The same goes for fear. It's just there to protect you and can't discriminate between genuine dangers like mad dogs or cliff edges, and seeing through a fundamental false view. Whenever they arise, don't resist the thoughts or the feelings of fear, just say hello to them, welcome them in, thank them for their concern and just allow them to pass on through and to subside. Just enjoy, as you say, drinking in and soaking up your newfound realisation that thoughts are just impersonal arisings, with no influence or connection with life just happening.

To broaden and deepen your realisation, I'd like to move on to choosing and deciding, to see if any self-entity can be found there. There's quite an overlap with what you've already looked at in thinking and doing, so it's really more of a continuation than an entirely new area. Anyway, please have a go at the following exercise, blue:

Raise your right arm (or don’t). In that process of raising the right arm (or not), a decision is made, or at least something happens (or doesn’t). But can you pinpoint the actual moment of choice and find the actual entity that appears to be making that choice? In direct experience, can that moment of choice, that apparent chooser, actually be found? Or does the idea 'I just chose to (not) raise my right arm' come after the event itself?

Also, can I ask you to have a look at the following short video clip from BBC Horizon - The Secret You on Neuroscience and Freewill: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-i3AiOS4nCE . It demonstrates scientifically that our decisions and choices are made a full 6 seconds before we think we make them, i.e. before a thought arises saying, "I decided to do this." There is no substitute for looking in direct experience, but this is excellent scientific corroboration for what is to be found, or rather not found, in direct experience.

Pete

[blueg]

Hiya Pete

Raise your right arm (or don’t). In that process of raising the right arm (or not), a decision is made, or at least something happens (or doesn’t). But can you pinpoint the actual moment of choice and find the actual entity that appears to be making that choice? In direct experience, can that moment of choice, that apparent chooser, actually be found? Or does the idea 'I just chose to (not) raise my right arm' come after the event itself?

As I read the first short sentence (before knowing what you were going to ask me to reflect on) I did simply notice that my arm wasn't going up. And I kind of wondered why it seemed to have chosen not to. Trying this again with my arm going up I can see that there isn't a connection between the thought about raising my arm and it raising. Not in experience. I can think 'I'm going to raise my arm' but notice my arm doesn't particularly want to raise up and doesn't.

In relation to choosing and deciding I'm happy with my knowing about the everyday things, however I have noticed my doubts or anxieties latching on to seemingly 'important' things like getting some work done in the next week or so and needing to find time and plan and schedule so that it gets done. that into my schedule. I've noticed that I feel less stressed about this right now, hardly at all, but wonder if I'm not anxious or pushing myself to do it as I think I usually do, will it get done?!! I also understand I think the understanding is conceptual, that if there is no self now, then there never has been and therefore nothing has effectively changed, so things will get done.

The same goes for fear. It's just there to protect you and can't discriminate between genuine dangers like mad dogs or cliff edges, and seeing through a fundamental false view.

I found that really helpful.

Also, can I ask you to have a look at the following short video clip from BBC Horizon.

During the day today in my work I've been more relaxed with the knowledge that 'I' don't have to try so hard to 'make' things happen. Letting it be.

bluex

[moondog]

Hi blue,

As I read the first short sentence (before knowing what you were going to ask me to reflect on) I did simply notice that my arm wasn't going up. And I kind of wondered why it seemed to have chosen not to. Trying this again with my arm going up I can see that there isn't a connection between the thought about raising my arm and it raising. Not in experience. I can think 'I'm going to raise my arm' but notice my arm doesn't particularly want to raise up and doesn't.

Yes, you see that clearly. All our lives, unless and until we are lucky enough to see the truth, we just believe whatever thoughts tell us, and that somehow, magically, thinking 'I'll raise my arm', or 'I'll go and live in San Diego' or whatever, makes that happen. It's just not so is it?

In relation to choosing and deciding I'm happy with my knowing about the everyday things, however I have noticed my doubts or anxieties latching on to seemingly 'important' things like getting some work done in the next week or so and needing to find time and plan and schedule so that it gets done. that into my schedule. I've noticed that I feel less stressed about this right now, hardly at all, but wonder if I'm not anxious or pushing myself to do it as I think I usually do, will it get done?!! I also understand I think the understanding is conceptual, that if there is no self now, then there never has been and therefore nothing has effectively changed, so things will get done.

Things that we think are particularly important to us personally (as if that has any reality) and can be felt to be stressful seem to be where the illusion of self is most stubborn, like when we perceive that something 'important' has gone 'wrong'. So your doubts and anxieties are understandable. But it makes little sense that there is no self deciding or choosing anything, anywhere ever, unless it's something we consider to be important at the time, does it? If you still have some doubts, next time a relatively important decision needs to be made,and you can feel the tension around that, look for a chooser. If you can find one, I'd love to know what it looks like and what it actually does.

Anyway, you finished with the perfect response to your own doubts when you said I also understand I think the understanding is conceptual, that if there is no self now, then there never has been and therefore nothing has effectively changed, so things will get done. Couldn't have said it better myself.

During the day today in my work I've been more relaxed with the knowledge that 'I' don't have to try so hard to 'make' things happen. Letting it be.

That's right. In fact because, literally, there's no 'you', there's no-one to try or to make things happen, only thoughts that tell you that there is. If they're believed, there's a problem called 'I/me/mine'. If they're not, there isn't.
So, all very good blue. You've looked for a self in thinking, seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, feeling, smelling, doing, controlling, choosing and deciding and no self, no you, has been found present or doing anything. There's still one area we haven't yet looked at and that's the body, and whether the self is the body, or is in the body.

From direct experience:

Does the body experience sensations and thoughts?

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinaesthetic)?

Pete x

[blueg]

hiya Pete

If you still have some doubts, next time a relatively important decision needs to be made,and you can feel the tension around that, look for a chooser.

As I'm looking into this I'm aware that I can't find a chooser, but notice just how much time my thoughts are engaged with planning what is going to happen next, in terms of what it thinks I need to do, in what order, how much time I'm going to spend doing it, looking back over what i've done and what I'm going to do next. Quite exhausting really. I think noticing this more and coming back to my experience has ironically meant things are getting done which when bullied by my thinking have tended to get left. It feels like work in progress.

Does the body experience sensations and thoughts?

I don't have the sense that the body is experiencing the sensations and thoughts. Initially I was just aware of the sensations and thoughts as sort of being 'housed' in the body. But reading your sentence below,,,,,,

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinaesthetic)?

I can see that the notion of being 'housed' visually in the body is an idea overlaying the sensations themselves.

thanks Pete
bluex

[moondog]

Hi blue,

This is just to let you know that I'll be away tomorrow. No worries, I'll reply to your post as soon as I can on Saturday.

In the meantime, just keep looking, in a natural, relaxed way :)

Pete x

[blueg]

hiya Pete

I'll be home again myself on Saturday evening, so will pick you up then.

I keeps on lookin'......

bluex

[moondog]

Hi blue,

How's it going?

As I'm looking into this I'm aware that I can't find a chooser, but notice just how much time my thoughts are engaged with planning what is going to happen next, in terms of what it thinks I need to do, in what order, how much time I'm going to spend doing it, looking back over what i've done and what I'm going to do next. Quite exhausting really.

It's great that you can't find any chooser. There's nothing wrong with simple planning per se; it can be very useful. But there's often a strong habitual tendency to plan, and also at the same time for this to become mixed together with self-centred thoughts, and to go over and over what 'you' think 'you' should do, shouldn't do, could do, couldn't do etc. etc. This doesn't just go away when it's seen that the self-entity is a fake. It's a strong lifetime habit that still retains a lot of energy. But now you know that there's no separate self running any of this, and can see these thoughts for what they are when they arise, all of this self-ish thinking starts to lose its grip, and its power to seduce you into believing this fundamental illusion.

I think noticing this more and coming back to my experience has ironically meant things are getting done which when bullied by my thinking have tended to get left. It feels like work in progress.

It's really good that you've noticed that.

I don't have the sense that the body is experiencing the sensations and thoughts. Initially I was just aware of the sensations and thoughts as sort of being 'housed' in the body. But reading your sentence below,,,,,,

Yes, after almost a lifetime of thinking that the body is where these experiences take place, unless examined, we just continue to assume this must be so.

I can see that the notion of being 'housed' visually in the body is an idea overlaying the sensations themselves.

Precisely. Good observations of 'your' direct experience. Clearly, as you can't even find any body (or indeed anybody) in direct experience, in turn, there can be no separate self in or as the body. The body is, as you suggest, just an idea, a story, albeit a very convenient one for everyday communication etc.

So blue, you've looked very thoroughly in all the various areas of direct experience and you haven't been able to find a self in any of them. I reckon now's a good time just to have a look from a slightly different perspective.

With 'you' revealed as a thought story, what remains?

What experiences?

What thinks?

What does?

What is aware?

Pete x

[blueg]

hiya Pete

Thanks, just a quick note. I'm away today and tomorrow, so not much time for written reply, but I'm going to write the five questions down and ponder them. I may be able to check in tomorrow (Sunday) evening briefly, otherwise it'll be Monday morning.

best
bluex

[moondog]

Hi blue,

Ok, looking forward to your replies either later today or tomorrow a.m.

The latest set of questions can be helpful because they encourage you just to look from a slightly different example, and can deepen what you've already seen that's all. They are essentially each asking the same thing, and your answers need only be brief.

Pete x

[moondog]

Sorry, not 'example', should have read 'angle' or 'perspective'.

Pete x

[blueg]

thanks Pete for reminding me that only a brief reply is needed, will write in the morning.

bluex

[blueg]

Hiya Pete

Because of my being away this weekend, I feel I've lost a bit of the continuity. It's good to be back now anyway. I've been mulling these questions over from time to time and I think what I've come up against is a habit of mine to think I have to do things in a certain way, i.e. 'properly', 'thoroughly', 'deeply' etc. and that this includes how I 'think' about the questions you're asking me, in order to 'see through'. At the same time I know that seeing is just that: seeing. So here goes, my quick, brief, not doing it 'properly' response:

With 'you' revealed as a thought story, what remains?

Just what's happening in the present.

What experiences?

Experience is just what it is, it's just doing itself.

What thinks?

When I think that thought and wait for another one to come, it doesn't for ages. Now I've just noticed that I said 'I think' and although when I take time to stop and look I know that thoughts just appear, I easily get re-identified with them.

What does?

I don't know that is a mystery to me.

What is aware?

Sometimes it seems that awareness is everywhere, like the tree has it, the phone, the dog, me.

bluex

[moondog]

Hi blue,

I've been mulling these questions over from time to time and I think what I've come up against is a habit of mine to think I have to do things in a certain way, i.e. 'properly', 'thoroughly', 'deeply' etc. and that this includes how I 'think' about the questions you're asking me, in order to 'see through'. At the same time I know that seeing is just that: seeing.

Yeah, again that's ingrained habit, but that's fine because you recognise that, see it for what it is, and get back to looking at direct experience. That's it. That's all you need to do.

When I think that thought and wait for another one to come, it doesn't for ages. Now I've just noticed that I said 'I think' and although when I take time to stop and look I know that thoughts just appear, I easily get re-identified with them.

It's pretty much the same as I said above. Like nearly all of us, you're subject to lifelong habits, including almost immediate identification with thoughts, selfing. But again, you can see that for what it is. Once this is seen, i.e. once the illusion of a separate self has been seen through, thoughts can never have the same grip again. They gradually lose their energy, their power to delude and seduce, even though they might continue to pop up sometimes.

So blue, you've now looked at all areas of direct experience and you haven't found a self-entity lurking there anywhere. I think now's a good time just briefly to review everything we've done so far, to see if you need to revisit any aspects to look in more depth for any evidence of a self-entity anywhere at all.

As always, in direct experience:

Have you been able to find, a ‘self’ that is the ‘experiencer’?

Or a self that is the doer, or can control what happens?

Or a self that ‘makes’ decisions?

Or a self who ‘does the thinking’?

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?

Are the five body senses made to arise or experienced by this ‘self’?

Is there a self ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’?

Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?

And finally:

Are there any doubts about seeing through the illusion of separate self?

It might seem like a bit if a long list of questions but the answers can be brief unless, of course, there's something you want to examine some more. It doesn't look to me as if there is much, if anything, but basically, we just need to tidy up and identify any areas that need to be looked into a bit more deeply, or clarified.

Pete x