Looking for DianaM for guidance.

[inseyedoubt]

Hi DianaM, my husband told me about you! I was hoping you could guide me. Thanks in advance!

[DianaM]

Hello and welcome to the LU forum!

I would be glad to be your guide, I feel happy about starting this with you, here we will have a dialogue where we will find out the truth about the “i” as a separate thing. I will ask you questions and you will answer from what you can observe.

first i will ask you to give an introduction. Tell me more about how you got here to LU, what motivates you to participate, what have you explored so far related to the illusion of the separate self and what do you expect from this dialogue.

How should i call you? Is there a name or alias you prefer or should I call you inseyedoubt?

[inseyedoubt]

Hello Diana!

You can call me Jenny. How did I get here you ask? Well, here's the "story"...grew up here in the south, "the Bible Belt". I was an only child up until the age of eleven. By then i was hopping from home to home within the church we attended as a sort of foster child due to my mother and stepfathers divorce and his problems with pedophilia. I ended up living with the pastor and his family just to be treated the same if not worse than what i was taken from. I listened to Tool as a teenager, it really spoke to me then. I started questioning EVERYTHING, and the things i had yet to understand about their lyrics were just a seed planted for future awareness. I met my husband at the same church, married young at the age of 18, didnt want anything to do with religion anymore,never really was invested in it anyways. Took some time for my husband to come around. It was hard to find a place for us here in the Bible Belt. We were on our own, until one day my mother sent me a book on my birthday. Loving What Is by Byron Katie. It rocked my world. Next was Tolle. Then some Chopra. Then I started meditating but i never could seem to be consistent with things like that. I enjoyed it though,when i did it. These books began the self inquiry process of letting go of the past and seeing every person as my greatest teacher. Then my next big read was Michael Talbot's Holographic Universe. Love some physics. I always want to figure things out and make the pieces fit. Then one day my husband entered the gate and eventually i read gateless gatecrashers. Now the searching is over. I'm relieved. But I'm having a hard time with the conditioning falling away. I feel mine was quite traumatic with the childhood spiritual, physical, and emotional abuse. I think i have yet to see that there never was a me back then. I can see it in my day to day now but I need help looking deeper. I dont want to hold onto this poor helpless self anymore. I hope im not too much trouble.

[DianaM]

Hi Jenny!
Thanks for your detailed introduction about “your” path so far. Before we start there are just a few comments and questions i will include here.

Could you confirm that you have read the disclaimer and watched the video at LU home?
http://www.liberationunleashed.com/

Tell me if you agree with following these points.
-We reply daily or at least as often as possible so we don’t loose the inertia of the thread.
-You agree to answer with honesty and from your experience only, and avoid over-thinking your replies.
-It is recommended not to read other books as long as the investigation goes, you can read Gateless Gatecrashers and threads in the forum, keeping meditation practices is ok.
-Remember that what we are looking for here is truth for truth itself, what happens (or don’t happen) as a result of this is secondary.

Reply that you agree to this and we can begin!

Useful technichal stuff:
-save a backup of your reply before sending it to the forum, technology can fail and log you out, loosing your text.
-Go to the bottom of your thread and click the subscribe topic button to get e-mail notifications when I reply.
-Check this short post about how to use the quote function, it makes communication in the thread clearer.http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

[inseyedoubt]

Yes I agree!!

[inseyedoubt]

Yes I agree!!

[DianaM]

Hello Jenny, then let’s begin!

I see from your introduction that is has been quite a journey.
I want to know more about what you expect from this dialogue
-What do you expect to happen when you “go through the gate”?
-Is there something you expect not to happen anymore?
-Is there something you want to gain or loose from this investigation?
-How will you know when you go through the gate?
-Are you looking for some kind of permanent state as a result from this dialogue?

I can see it in my day to day now but I need help looking deeper. I dont want to hold onto this poor helpless self anymore.

What is this self that you don’t want to hold to anymore? Describe it in detail as you see it now.
Where can you find it? What does it do?

I think i have yet to see that there never was a me back then. I can see it in my day to day now but I need help looking deeper.

Can a self be there one moment and gone the next one? Why is it more difficult to see this “i” as absent in your day to day than in the past?

PS: I see that you got great music taste!

[inseyedoubt]

-I don't have any expectations about the gate. What happens, happens. I am open.
-I'd like to not identify so much with my thoughts. I guess unnecessary suffering.
-I want to lose the story of "me" I have lost a lot of it already or I wouldn't be here today at LU. Well I guess beliefs would be best to lose.
-I have seen it. But with cracked open eyes...the eyes are adjusting.
-No. There are none.

What is this self that you don’t want to hold to anymore? Describe it in detail as you see it now.
Where can you find it? What does it do?

Well as I see it now, it is NOT. It is just a movie projected by this mind portraying who I thought I was as a little girl. It isn't here right now in reality. It appears, like thoughts appear.

Can a self be there one moment and gone the next one? Why is it more difficult to see this “i” as absent in your day to day than in the past?

Not if it never existed. What I meant by

I think i have yet to see that there never was a me back then. I can see it in my day to day now but I need help looking deeper.

is that I have seen that "I" does not exist and I am seeing subtle changes in my experiences day to day. I have those moments where I feel I am in the Flow. That I am "life happening", but then when I look to check that there never was a me, not even that little girl, that's where everything stops and comes to a halt. I feel blocked. I won't let "life happening" happen there. It’s going to be hard to let the belief fall away. Intellectually I get it but I can’t see it all so clearly just yet.

P.S.S. Did you hear that they are supposedly writing and recording a new ablum?!

[DianaM]

Hi Jenny! you're doing great, let's look at your answers...

About expectations:

-I don't have any expectations about the gate. What happens, happens. I am open.

Great, that will really help!

-I'd like to not identify so much with my thoughts. I guess unnecessary suffering.

What is to identify with thoughts? How does it happen?

-I want to lose the story of "me" I have lost a lot of it already or I wouldn't be here today at LU. Well I guess beliefs would be best to lose.

What is a story made of? Is the story or parts of the story really lost, or is the attachment and belief in them that drops? Does the story has to disappear?

-I have seen it. But with cracked open eyes...the eyes are adjusting.

Then let’s clear things up!

-No. There are none.

Exactly, no state is permanent! Good that you notice it!

Rest of the reply:

Well as I see it now, it is NOT. It is just a movie projected by this mind portraying who I thought I was as a little girl. It isn't here right now in reality. It appears, like thoughts appear.

Yes, These thoughts can frighten us or bring emotions up. But is there any way you can control which thoughts or emotions pop up and which don’t?

I have seen that "I" does not exist and I am seeing subtle changes in my experiences day to day. I have those moments where I feel I am in the Flow. That I am "life happening", but then when I look to check that there never was a me, not even that little girl, that's where everything stops and comes to a halt.

It is normal to have moments when it is clear and others when it is not. This belief on an “i” has inertia, it has been believed for years, unquestioned.

I feel blocked. I won't let "life happening" happen there.

Do you mean in the past? What is the past? Look for the past now, what do you find?

I promise that the replies won't usually be as long as this one. I had to do it this time.

PS:New album, i hope it’s true (I will send you a Private Message to continue talking about that)

[inseyedoubt]

Just hearing you say,"you're doing great" is a relief because last night was tough with those questions!

What is to identify with thoughts? How does it happen?

Nothing, no one. I don't know, it happens so fast, it's like a dream that you suddenly have waking moments in. The waking moments, moments of clarity are far and few between right now. They seemed clearer last week. This work week has been unusually stressful.

What is a story made of? Is the story or parts of the story really lost, or is the attachment and belief in them that drops? Does the story has to disappear?

Nothing! Ha ha! No, the belief and attachment drops, story loses the spotlight.....slowly. Refocus. What is obvious and real becomes more focused and in the foreground.

Yes, These thoughts can frighten us or bring emotions up. But is there any way you can control which thoughts or emotions pop up and which don’t?

No there is no way to control anything.

It is normal to have moments when it is clear and others when it is not. This belief on an “i” has inertia, it has been believed for years, unquestioned.

Whew that's good to hear!

Do you mean in the past? What is the past? Look for the past now, what do you find?

Oh I see it now lol!! It's layers of lies left unquestioned. The past is not here. Can't find it haha! Oh my goodness!

[DianaM]

Hello Jenny,

Nothing, no one. I don't know, it happens so fast, it's like a dream that you suddenly have waking moments in. The waking moments, moments of clarity are far and few between right now. They seemed clearer last week. This work week has been unusually stressful.

If the moments are few and far from each other, does that reduce their clarity? What do you consider more important, clarity or the frequency in which they happen?

Nothing! Ha ha! No, the belief and attachment drops, story loses the spotlight.....slowly. Refocus. What is obvious and real becomes more focused and in the foreground.

Please look at this picture. What do you see? (please see the image before reading the next part)
http://c3.likes-media.com/img/9935f014e ... 2.600x.jpg

If your answer was a spiral try again... Follow the spiral with your finger and see what happens.

What is an illusion, How do you see through an illusion?

No there is no way to control anything.

How do thoughts happen as you see it now? Does something own thoughts or do they just happen?

Oh I see it now lol!! It's layers of lies left unquestioned. The past is not here. Can't find it haha! Oh my goodness!

WHEN do you think about the past or about the future? If you think about past, does it mean that the past is back, alive and really happening again, or that there are thoughts, memories about it? Is there any moment that has real existence that is not the present moment?

What comes up when you read this sentence:

There is no you, there has never been a you and there will never be.

This is getting more interesting with each reply!

[inseyedoubt]

If the moments are few and far from each other, does that reduce their clarity? What do you consider more important, clarity or the frequency in which they happen?

No. Clarity really.

Please look at this picture. What do you see? (please see the image before reading the next part)

I have already seen this picture before haha. So yes I understand our mind can easily trick us.

What is an illusion, How do you see through an illusion?

A false impression of reality. Keep looking?????

How do thoughts happen as you see it now? Does something own thoughts or do they just happen?

They just do. No they just happen.

WHEN do you think about the past or about the future? If you think about past, does it mean that the past is back, alive and really happening again, or that there are thoughts, memories about it? Is there any moment that has real existence that is not the present moment?

I don't ever choose to think about it, it just slips in unnoticed and I go into a daze with it. Get caught up in it. It feels like it's happening again, but I know it's a false impression and it is only thoughts and memories. No.

There is no you, there has never been a you and there will never be.

I understand and it feels scary and freeing at the same time. Thoughts like this come up afterward...
It's hard because the people in my life know the story of me and they validate it daily. It makes it very difficult for me to release from the attachment. The attachment is very strong. Am I making excuses right now, is this the fight "I" put up to stay in the illusion? Why would I want to stay there?

[DianaM]

Hi Jenny,
I couldn't reply yesterday, i had a busy day, sorry!

Diana:What is an illusion, How do you see through an illusion?
Jenny: A false impression of reality. Keep looking?????

Exactly, you see through the illusion when you look at how it tricks you and see behind it.

I have already seen this picture before haha. So yes I understand our mind can easily trick us.

Yes, it surely can, could it be possible that this "i" is a false impresion of reality too? Just as there seems to be a spiral there?

Diana: How do thoughts happen as you see it now? Does something own thoughts or do they just happen?
Jenny: They just do. No they just happen.

Then why worrying about trying to control the thoughts that show up?

I don't ever choose to think about it, it just slips in unnoticed and I go into a daze with it.Get caught up in it.

Can you find something in life that you can choose, control, or make happen?

It feels like it's happening again, but I know it's a false impression and it is only thoughts and memories. No.

Well observed!! Thoughts and memories (that are thoughts about the past) build stories, can a story be controlled? What if the story never stopped showing up? would that be a problem?

Diana: There is no you, there has never been a you and there will never be.
Jenny: I understand and it feels scary and freeing at the same time.

I understand what you mean here. Same happens when any old way of thinking is questioned.

Thoughts like this come up afterward...
It's hard because the people in my life know the story of me and they validate it daily.

This is like a theater play where "people" don't know they are acting. They believe to be separate selves and also that "all the other people" are separate. They validate “their” stories and “your” stories, what else could they do?

But wait... What is "other people" Are there a lot of "separate selves" out there and a "you" in here?

"It makes it very difficult for me to release from the attachment. The attachment is very strong."
"Am I making excuses right now, is this the fight "I" put up to stay in the illusion? Why would I want to stay there?"

Will YOU release anything? What releases this attachment? Are you totally certain that it will be difficult, or is this another thought telling you this?
what is this "i" that fights, makes excuses, wants to stay there or not? What does all of these things?

--
Diana

[DianaM]

Hi Jenny!

How is everything going?

[inseyedoubt]

Can you find something in life that you can choose, control, or make happen?

Nope.

Thoughts and memories (that are thoughts about the past) build stories, can a story be controlled? What if the story never stopped showing up? would that be a problem?

No a story cannot be controlled. It doesnt show signs of stopping as of now. I guess that depends on if i believe in it.

What is "other people" Are there a lot of "separate selves" out there and a "you" in here?

No there is no separation. All is.

Will YOU release anything? What releases this attachment? Are you totally certain that it will be difficult, or is this another thought telling you this?
what is this "i" that fights, makes excuses, wants to stay there or not? What does all of these things?

No. There isn't anyone home. There isn't any ownership to anything. "Difficult" is just a story. A label. The "I" is illusory. There is no fight, just to let go and fall and trust the proccess.