Request Hare as a guide!

[Hare]

Hi Akita,

So great reading your responses. Dropping expectations / needing to prove anything is an excellent sign.

Let's really home in on this - please answer each question quite simply:

When you tune in to sound, tell me,is there a 'hearer' or is there simply an experience of hearing?

Try other senses. When you eat a piece of food, is there a 'taster' or just tasting?

Look; take in whatever your eyes rest on. Can you find a 'seer'? Or is there just seeing?

Does any kind of sensing require a 'self' to 'do' it?

As you suggested, I have been doing this exercise again and again... and more and more I realise that the mental image/construction I might have of something isn't real.

Yes. This realisation is key. Let's take this further.

Is the self; 'me'; 'I', something real? Can it be found in direct experience? Or is it a mental image / construction - something that isn't real? Look in DE and let me know your findings.

:-) Hare

[Aka1508]

Hi Hare - good morning

Let's get stared today... Because it feels as if I haven't really stopped doing what you have suggested.... Here are my answers

When you tune in to sound, tell me,is there a 'hearer' or is there simply an experience of hearing?

I have tried this several times... I'm inclined to tell you that NO, there is not a hearer hearing ... Just the experience of hearing. Yet I feel myself doubting whether I know this for true or I'm mankind it all up. Alrhough may be it is because I don't have words to 'explain' the experience of hearing. What I'm noticing is that I feel more through the senses. I mean, I stopped for a little while to listen to a bird; I don't know what kind of bird it is because I can't see it. It is somewhere outside my house. What I can say is that I experience the sound of the birds more directly through the right ear. I experience different sounds actually. It seems that there are more than one bird outside -but I don't know that for sure. What I experience, is quite distinctive and have a sense that the mind is not interfering.

Try other senses. When you eat a piece of food, is there a 'taster' or just tasting?

I picked up a cup... And tried to see who was picking the cup, my hand? My arm? My shoulder? My brain ordering the former to do so? And then can't tell you... What is the self? That's a question, I don't feel like saying that there is no Self, even though at that moment, and also right now, don't have that sense... But I'm not sure ... Because now I have another question, what is the self? What is it made of? How comes into being?

Does any kind of sensing require a 'self' to 'do' it?

As said before. It doesn't look like... But I still don't dare that I know that for sure.

Is the self; 'me'; 'I', something real? Can it be found in direct experience? Or is it a mental image / construction - something that isn't real? Look in DE and let me know your findings.

It seems to me that I was already answering to these important and crucial questions. Now, the question for me is: ok, you (me) don't know whether there is a self or not, just try to find it? And honestly, I can't.

Bye for now.

Akita

[Hare]

Delightful reading your observations :-)

I experience the sound of the birds more directly through the right ear

Is the bird sound happening in your ear, or where the bird is? Or what? Does DE tell you the location, or are there also thoughts / views 'explaining' how hearing happens, creating an image of where the bird is, and so on? Can you discern what is DE and what is thought / view?

what is the self? What is it made of? How comes into being? [/quote

That's what we're here to explore, systematically. So far you haven't found a 'self', but you aren't sure yet. Keep looking! The answer will come clear.

Following the previous explorations of the senses, let's look, in DE, at the mind as sense. Do thoughts require a 'thinker' or do they simply arise? Are 'you' directing your thoughts? Can you decide what thought to have next? Can you decide exactly what to think about for the next 2 minutes? Let me know your findings.

Now, the question for me is: ok, you (me) don't know whether there is a self or not, just try to find it? And honestly, I can't.

Is that because, in direct experience, it simply isn't there...and never was?

;-) H

[Aka1508]

Hi Hare -a bit late on Sunday, but here I am after a rather busy day...

Is the bird sound happening in your ear, or where the bird is? Or what? Does DE tell you the location, or are there also thoughts / views 'explaining' how hearing happens, creating an image of where the bird is, and so on? Can you discern what is DE and what is thought / view?

Now there is no longer a bird but the sound of cars running on the highway... That's a wonderful question: are the cars' sounds happening in my ear, or where the cars are? Give me a moment please...

It feels like is happening right here in my ear... But also far away... Where about? I can't tell you because the experience is that of moving sound. It is not coming from a specific place but it definitely feels like moving sounds. Yet the experience in my ear is a bit motionless, I mean, I my ear.

What I have just written, happened quite fast but my mind irrupted just as fast. The following thought came... 'Of course, the sounds happens somewhere to the north, and travel so fast that they also happen here... Like whispering sound into my left ear.

I keep looking for a self and so far haven't found it. As you suggest, I will keep trying...

Following the previous explorations of the senses, let's look, in DE, at the mind as sense. Do thoughts require a 'thinker' or do they simply arise? Are 'you' directing your thoughts? Can you decide what thought to have next? Can you decide exactly what to think about for the next 2 minutes? Let me know your findings.

To begin with, as soon as I start exploring the mind as a sense, all thinking kind of disappears. I tried the following: decided to explore a particular theme, closed my eyes and "decided" to think about it. No thought arose. But then, suddenly I had this feeling that even before I had an experience of thoughts just arising. Like the are right now, I'm typing away in my iPad and I don't really know what thought will come next. I seem to have a general idea of what I am about to write but not the form the writing will take. It just seem to come from inside my head to my fingertips as I type.

I have a feeling that I don't know what sort of thoughts will arise.

Is there a thinker to be found? We'll, well... The experience so far is that of thoughts coming from nowhere and going to nowhere. Thoughts experienced as comets. Coming from the big dark blue, shimmering, fast, found and lost to the big blue again. It is difficult to experience a thinker in this comet-like process.


Cheers and good night... Good morning your side of the world.

Akita

[Aka1508]

Ooops, your side of the world is already the 26; so it appears as if I failed again in writing daily. For me, this wide of th world, isn't the case.

Akita

[Hare]

Great replies, as ever! :-)

No problem re; the time difference, we've got a good regular dialogue going here.

I don't really know what thought will come next. I seem to have a general idea of what I am about to write but not the form the writing will take. It just seem to come from inside my head to my fingertips as I type.

Are you observing in DE thoughts coming from your head? Or is that a received idea or view that you're placing 'on top' of the experience - thought masquerading as reality?


So far you've looked in sense experience, including mind sense, but haven't found an 'experiencer'.

Let's see if there is a 'chooser' or 'decider' to be found.

In the next 10 seconds or so, raise your right arm (or don't raise it) or your left (or don't raise it). In DE, how does this 'decision' happen? Is there a self, doing the deciding? Repeat a few times and let me know your observations.

Observe the process of 'choosing' doing something else - deciding what drink to have, or what to wear. In DE, is there a 'chooser?'

So...

What is 'I' 'me' / 'myself' pointing to, now, in DE?

I'm enjoying your explorations! Hope you are too
:-) Hare

[Aka1508]

Great replies, as ever! :-)

thanks.. I'm enjoying the process too! You know, I have already replied to your latest post. I did it from my ipad. kept waiting a notice from tapatalk (your answer) and, voila nothing... how strange I thought. Then came to my computer this afternoon -after a working day and my reply isn't here... where has it gone?... this is the second time this like this happen... any thoughts...

Are you observing in DE thoughts coming from your head? Or is that a received idea or view that you're placing 'on top' of the experience - thought masquerading as reality?

If experiencing sound, touch, smell, sight and hearing as DE was mind blowing... imagine thinking. In a 'normal' situation, yeah, thought appear as coming from my head. But when Im feeling the body, then thoughts seem to come from everywhere and nowhere.

Although, here the idea of a thought coming from somewhere seems ludicrous... honestly, doesn't make any sense at all... I'm now thinking ... and it seems to come from my head... not from my left toe ... from somewhere inside my head... Not quite sure how to discriminate whether it is an experience or an idea of an experience.

In the next 10 seconds or so, raise your right arm (or don't raise it) or your left (or don't raise it). In DE, how does this 'decision' happen? Is there a self, doing the deciding? Repeat a few times and let me know your observations.

Wow... well once the decision was made, I counted to 10 and raised my right arm... in DE it seems to happen in automatic... because a decision was made before hand. Now, whom made such a decision? I feel like saying me... but the point is to see whether that 'me' exists, isn't it?

To be honest... I toyed with the following idea: ok, if Im going to say whether there is a me and Im not really sure, then may be I could start looking for it... And the first thing that came to mind was: in anatomy we never talked about a 'me', in the same way as about a hand, a toe, a finger, a stomach and so on... we talked about the brain... but never about a me and the me-abode... Then... it seems like a logical conclusion (that my mind is resisting!) that there is no me.

Now as a DE... I can feel the fingers when writing... I feel my tongue when Im eating, or my arm that moved to put my glasses in the right place... what of those is me??? There are called tongue, arm, toe, fingers and the like... not me... so, no me... mmmm... kind of getting a feeling of what you are getting at... and kind of loosing that feeling almost immediately... I mean, I don't know how to talk about such a feeling...

Observe the process of 'choosing' doing something else - deciding what drink to have, or what to wear. In DE, is there a 'chooser?'

The above applies to this too... is there a chooser? No... I can´t find it... have a feeling there is none... and also feel a bewilderment.

What is 'I' 'me' / 'myself' pointing to, now, in DE?

Oops... I din't get this point... :(

Bye for now.

[Hare]

Hi Akita!

Great you"re enjoying this adventure.

[quote] I have already replied to your latest post. I did it from my ipad. kept waiting a notice from tapatalk (your answer) and, voila nothing... how strange I thought. Then came to my computer this afternoon -after a working day and my reply isn't here... where has it gone?... this is the second time this like this happen... any thoughts.../quote]

Not sure, but I'll ask a friend who's more knowledgeable on the techie stuff and get back to you.

[quote]In a 'normal' situation, yeah, thought appear as coming from my head. But when Im feeling the body, then thoughts seem to come from everywhere and nowhere. /quote]

Excellent observation. Is that 'normal' situation where thoughts 'appear' to be coming from your head - is it something real that you can directly observe for yourself? Or is it simply an idea... a mental construction? (Remember when you were exploring the idea of the tamarindo or the roses compared to the real taste or smell?) Is there a similar distinction to be made here?

[quote]To be honest... I toyed with the following idea: ok, if Im going to say whether there is a me and Im not really sure, then may be I could start looking for it... And the first thing that came to mind was: in anatomy we never talked about a 'me', in the same way as about a hand, a toe, a finger, a stomach and so on... we talked about the brain... but never about a me and the me-abode... Then... it seems like a logical conclusion (that my mind is resisting!) that there is no me. /quote]

Interesting! It's good to get logic on board, but we can go further than that - actually see, directly, that the 'sel' is no more than a mental construct. Keep going - you're doing great! Be interested in that resistance. Explore! What's in there?

OK, try this:

Write what you are experiencing right now using the words I and me. Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just plain description of here now. Like this: I am lying in bed. I am hearing rain. I am typing these words. Do this for 10 minutes. Watch the body; what physical sensations are happening?
Then for the next 10 minutes write what you are experiencing without the words I and me. Just describe the experience as it is happening in the moment, using verbs: Waiting for next thought, typing, breathing, blinking, hearing rain. Again watch what is happening in the body. Now compare these two ways to label experience. What do you notice?

:-) Hare

[Aka1508]

Hi Hare

Today has been a rather busy day... I'm still here, I'll reply tomorrow morning, my time... I have read your reply and will so the excersice, will reply tomorrow.

Nait, nait...

[Hare]

Hi Akita!
Re: problems with posting. You"re clicking post reply or quick reply, writing it and then clicking submit? If you're doing that, I don't know why it isn't working.
One option could be to type your reply onto a document somewhere else and then paste it in. Then at least you won't have lost the whole thing if it happens again.
H

[Akita1508]

Llll


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Aka1508]

Hi again....

I'm still here. Have had a couple of really busy days... I will have a go to a reply (the 20 minutes description with and without I and me.

Akita

[Aka1508]

Tomorrow

[Aka1508]

Hi Hare

Here I am again, anxious to continue our dialogue...

OK, try this:

Write what you are experiencing right now using the words I and me. Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just plain description of here now. Like this: I am lying in bed. I am hearing rain. I am typing these words. Do this for 10 minutes. Watch the body; what physical sensations are happening?
Then for the next 10 minutes write what you are experiencing without the words I and me. Just describe the experience as it is happening in the moment, using verbs: Waiting for next thought, typing, breathing, blinking, hearing rain. Again watch what is happening in the body. Now compare these two ways to label experience. What do you notice?

This has been a very interesting exercise... Let me tell you something... Last night I was doing it in my dreams... I was describing all the things I was doing, using the 'I' and 'me', and then not using it. All that in my dream. It was really strange, because I also knew that I was dreaming... And had a kind of lucid dream. I mean, that knowing that I was dreaming, I decided to keep doing the observing and describing you suggested.

Also... Since I didn't have time to sit down to reply to your post, and knowing its content, yesterday, during the day several times I was describing all I was doing, in the way suggested by you...

A couple of times during daytime and once during my dream, I had a sense that something really important was about to emerge. A kind of knowing what you are getting at... A sudden sense of anica and possibly anatman, that lasted a nanosecond. It was like a soft wave emerging from within the body... A sense of being suspended in an open space. But as said, it lasted like a nanosecond... It left me with the sense that something is about to happen... With a sense that there is no need to go about chasing it (whatever it is); a sense of trust, if it is meant to happen it will... Nothing to do really.

Then, back to the activity in real time...
An example of what I wrote... I'm typing, I'm listening to the refrigerator, I'm listening to the air conditioning, I'm typing, I'm hearing the sound of a keyboard next to me, I'm sitting on a chair, I'm doing this. My left hand rose and scratched my left ear... I'm blinking ... My left hand is over my mouth, my tongue is touching my teeth, my feet is touching the floor...

As I was typing the above on the notebook, I felt a pressure in my middle belly and my heart zone... Hearing, I noticed the sounds as if they came from some place outside my body, and at the same time were just there, right in my left ear. Not going into the ear but 'in the ear' (I'm having difficulties describing the latter).

Something similar happened with watching... It seemed as if the thing being watched is outside and at the same time right in my eyes... Like there and here... Am I making any sense.?

Then when I started just describing without "i" or "my"... I just wanted to laugh all the time... It felt both, like non-sense and fun... Had similar sensations around my belly and chest... Sense of excitement and wonder.... Ah! Before it felt more like anxiety -no excitement and no wonder... It was noticeable, because as a sensation they felt quite similar, but the taste, as it were, was different.

At the sensing front, it felt quite similar... Like there and here (sounds there and here, images there and here)... And even though it felt that way, at the same time kind of know they are not different...

Further, the experience of thinking was quite something! The thoughts seemed to be emerging from nowhere... The experience was one of thoughts coming from nowhere without "me" summoning them... This type of thoughts don't seem to have a source... They just seem to emerge, especially when I seem to gather a momentum... There seems to be a direct connection between my brain, the task and my fingerprints. Sometimes a sense of wonder emerges at the moment of noticing how thoughts and words being typed emerge before the eyes.

Hope, Hare, I'm making any sense at all... A sense of inner laughter is also present! :-0

Bye4Now

Akita

[Hare]

Good to hear back from you Akita.

Loving hearing about your dream!

A couple of times during daytime and once during my dream, I had a sense that something really important was about to emerge. A kind of knowing what you are getting at... A sudden sense of anica and possibly anatman, that lasted a nanosecond. It was like a soft wave emerging from within the body... A sense of being suspended in an open space. But as said, it lasted like a nanosecond... It left me with the sense that something is about to happen... With a sense that there is no need to go about chasing it (whatever it is); a sense of trust, if it is meant to happen it will... Nothing to do really.

Yes. Nothing to chase. What you are opening to already is, right here, this very moment. A nanosecond is enough, trust those glimpses.

Then when I started just describing without "i" or "my"... I just wanted to laugh all the time... It felt both, like non-sense and fun... Had similar sensations around my belly and chest... Sense of excitement and wonder.... Ah! Before it felt more like anxiety -no excitement and no wonder... It was noticeable, because as a sensation they felt quite similar, but the taste, as it were, was different.

This is a taste of the expansiveness available anytime when the delusion of 'I' drops away :-)

Further, the experience of thinking was quite something! The thoughts seemed to be emerging from nowhere... The experience was one of thoughts coming from nowhere without "me" summoning them...

Excellent observation. Do any thoughts, ever, require a 'me' (you!) to summon them?


OK Akita, explore this and get back to me with your findings (be aware of theories and preconceptions sneaking in, pretending to be DE).

When you say "I", what does that refer to in direct experience? Please describe in detail – does
it have a shape? A size? A quality?


By the way, apparently if you leave things up on the screen for a longer while it can 'time out' and what you've written would be lost. So yes, good to write elsewhere and paste in if you're needing time to explore as you reply.

Have fun!

Hare