Reality

[Faraday]

I think LU was down for quite some time yesterday, i couldn't access it either.

your analogy of unknown language makes sense..

I can't seem to see the lie for what it is, I feel stuck..

where should I be going next?

Start by not calling it a lie. Don't make your mind the enemy, it's only doing what it's supposed to. And let's not try to rush this, we've only just started.

Ok, so something is obviously dying to see through the illusion, right? What is it that wants it? What is it that gets frustrated? What is it that tries to look? What is it that feels stuck?

Now, tell me what happens when you look for a self. What do you see? If you see confusion, then that is what you see, if you see fear and doubt, then that is what you see. Let me know everything that comes up.

[tonka]

Ok, so something is obviously dying to see through the illusion, right? What is it that wants it? What is it that gets frustrated? What is it that tries to look? What is it that feels stuck?

yes, the desire to see through something is quite intense. there is almost constant pull to discover this as if it "knows" it is necessary and life will be simpler this way

it is a sense of "me" that wants to see it. "I" want to figure this out because it wants the benefits of a simpler life. There is a strong desire to follow through with this. as if something was aware that this is the way I need to go next. I have read many descriptions of what liberation is like and I wants to get to that. There is anxiety that feels like something is unright in life. There seems to be a dissonance with being so caught in thought that it feels necessary to figure this out .

It seems to be "me" that frustrated.. emotions get more intense, contentedness becomes loss, there is a real emotional pain often in daily life that wants to be removed.. When i look for what looks its almost like a big game. I see thoughts "is there an looker" ... but what is looking at that thought! I can logical know there is no looker things just happen but it seems in my direct experience this is not believed.
again with feeling stuff I guess I take it as a personal thing, me who inhabits this body is stuck though I know logically there is no me in here.

Now, tell me what happens when you look for a self. What do you see? If you see confusion, then that is what you see, if you see fear and doubt, then that is what you see. Let me know everything that comes up.

there is confusion. frustration that I don't "get" it.. the sense that I am missing something obvious that others get. worries that this is something I need to figure out to get my life on track. I have a tendency in personal life to take things too personally. a big one is fear of change. "what will happen to my plans? what about my personality? could understanding this possibly help me get out of a rut and become a better person? when I see will I be able to live an obvious life that has been disrupted by thinking patterns? could this possibly improve my life"

there are other concerns that I'm following something that is pointless "why are you so focused on this?" and what people think of "me" "doing all this looking and is there no you is weird to others!"


when it comes down to it a lot of the desire to find the truth is in hope of simplifying life, hoping to find ease in the anxiety of daily living and the pain that comes with so closely identifying with my ego (particularly negative points of view)


unfortunately I have done a lot of thinking... kindof "inner" dialogues with myself about this topic. questioning things, between two "voices" one of the asker and the other trying to explain. but no amount of explaining it creates the authentic experience.

I guess there is an underlying desire for freedom from the pain of the mind, Im aware that most of my lifes troubles are mind-made but there is much difficulty in seperating from it. it seems natural to feel lifes pains larger than anything else

[Faraday]

Hi Tonka.
I wanted to write an answer to your post today but something came up. I will get back to you as soon as i can.

[tonka]

no worries. I look forward to continuing when we can

[Faraday]

I picked two quotes from your post because i think they show best where the problems lie:

when it comes down to it a lot of the desire to find the truth is in hope of simplifying life, hoping to find ease in the anxiety of daily living and the pain that comes with so closely identifying with my ego (particularly negative points of view)

You talk about pain that comes from identifying with your ego, lets take a look at that. When you say "my ego" that implies that there's an ego and an owner of that ego. So there's this ego doing all kinds of messed up painful stuff and the owner suffering from it, right? Now what i tell you that the ego you talk about isn't the problem but the idea of the the owner. What if i tell you the 'owner' is the same thoughtstuff as the 'ego'.

What happens when you investigate the owner? Can you look at the conflicting thoughts fighting each other? Can you sit back and enjoy the show they create?

It seems to be "me" that frustrated.. emotions get more intense, contentedness becomes loss, there is a real emotional pain often in daily life that wants to be removed.. When i look for what looks its almost like a big game. I see thoughts "is there an looker" ... but what is looking at that thought! I can logical know there is no looker things just happen but it seems in my direct experience this is not believed.
again with feeling stuff I guess I take it as a personal thing, me who inhabits this body is stuck though I know logically there is no me in here.

Can a looker be seen? Can an experiencer be experienced? The mind may come to the conclusion that there has to be something that does the looking/experiencing but can you see anything more at this exact moment than just what is being experienced? Can you find anything that is outside of experience? If you can, isn't that just more experience?

[tonka]

You talk about pain that comes from identifying with your ego, lets take a look at that. When you say "my ego" that implies that there's an ego and an owner of that ego. So there's this ego doing all kinds of messed up painful stuff and the owner suffering from it, right? Now what i tell you that the ego you talk about isn't the problem but the idea of the the owner. What if i tell you the 'owner' is the same thoughtstuff as the 'ego'.

What happens when you investigate the owner? Can you look at the conflicting thoughts fighting each other? Can you sit back and enjoy the show they create?

When I investigate the owner.. ist almost like I gothrough a series of "owners".. "oh there is the thought of I" and then there goes into an analysis or engagement dialogue until that "voice" is understand as false.. but this sequence goes on infinitely.

I can observe at the thoughts which conflict.. But it almost seems like the "observer" mode is automatically assumed to be me. when I challenge this, it goes into thought "of course this observer is me" and the above infinity goes on. its almost seems like the impulse to want to have control is everlasting.

sometimes I can sit back and relax. Often when I'm falling asleep or performing music (this is my profession). Especially when falling asleep I can sit back and observe the thoughts and let them dance. beautiful visuals, music in the mind, an often serene and blissful sense when in this state. reminds me of childhood. very pure

Can a looker be seen? Can an experiencer be experienced? The mind may come to the conclusion that there has to be something that does the looking/experiencing but can you see anything more at this exact moment than just what is being experienced? Can you find anything that is outside of experience? If you can, isn't that just more experience?

A looker can't be seen... but it does seem like an experiencer is experienced.. even if in thought I understand that to not be true. There are tough thats that assume that there is something/someone that life happens too. Someone who has to be the arbiter of life . "is this the right thing to do?" "try to have these thoughts" "this is the way you should approach this situation"

No cannot find anything outside of my experience... but the belief that there is a seperate thing that experiences these things, and has to "be prepared" for the future or dwell on the past to learn...

Yes I suppose this is just experience. These thoughts that drift in an out, these stories are oftenuntrue and just part of the experience. for example dwelling on the thought of say "Im not good enough" may persist for hours but eventually drops into another experience eventually. However many of these thoughts "stick" to something. beliefs maintain to some "thing"

hope some of this is helpful

[tonka]

Many of my challenging thoughts have to do with my functioning "after" seeing no self.

"will you become lazy ?" "how will you maintain a career or stay focused if there is no you to keep on top of it" "will your personality change and people will like you"

constant desire for control. What will people think? What will happen to "me"




Also going to throw out an interesting experience I had the other day. I was walking in a graveyard and felt connected to everything. it was very profound. I remember distinctively seeing the grass everywhere and seeing it "differently" almost more vibrant, more alive. I didn't feel separate from the blades of grass. There was just grass, and the colours were magnificent too. it didn't feel like anything had "happened though" it was just the way it is.

[Faraday]

When I investigate the owner.. ist almost like I gothrough a series of "owners".. "oh there is the thought of I" and then there goes into an analysis or engagement dialogue until that "voice" is understand as false.. but this sequence goes on infinitely.

How many owners can there be at the time? How many thoughts can you think at one time? You may think you are a big bag of memories, history, opinions, personality traits, etc. but tell me, what is here right now at this moment? How do you know what's in that bag until it pops up in this present moment? What happens to memories when they aren't remembered? Are they really being carried around or is it the thought "i'm carrying stuff around" that feels so heavy?

Many of my challenging thoughts have to do with my functioning "after" seeing no self.

"will you become lazy ?" "how will you maintain a career or stay focused if there is no you to keep on top of it" "will your personality change and people will like you"

constant desire for control. What will people think? What will happen to "me"

Nothing will happen to 'you' because the 'you' doesn't exist. Nothing will disappear because there isn't anything to disappear. The 'you' that you think is on top of things is already not here, never was here and never will be here. The desire to control comes from believing you have control, that there is a you to have control.

If you're affraid to become a slave to life then i can only say: there is nothing to be a slave, there is only life!

Also going to throw out an interesting experience I had the other day. I was walking in a graveyard and felt connected to everything. it was very profound. I remember distinctively seeing the grass everywhere and seeing it "differently" almost more vibrant, more alive. I didn't feel separate from the blades of grass. There was just grass, and the colours were magnificent too. it didn't feel like anything had "happened though" it was just the way it is.

And thats the way it still is, and how it will always be. What do you think is different now? Usually these moments you describe are ended when thought comes back but really it's not the thought itself that's the problem but the believing it. Saying: "i had a sincere moment of clarity but then thought returned" is like saying: "I was enjoying the view from this mountain top but then a flock of birds flew by". Don't exclude thoughts, they are as much part of the moment as the birds are.

Don't try to search for brighter colors, instead look for the colors that are here right now, as they are right now. Those moments of clarity are perfect for inquiry, don't let them pass without investigating them.

[tonka]

How many owners can there be at the time? How many thoughts can you think at one time? You may think you are a big bag of memories, history, opinions, personality traits, etc. but tell me, what is here right now at this moment? How do you know what's in that bag until it pops up in this present moment? What happens to memories when they aren't remembered? Are they really being carried around or is it the thought "i'm carrying stuff around" that feels so heavy?

Hmmm about the owners there is the sensation of different owners. some days "I" am this others "I" am that. about how many thoughts, I'm not sure sometimes it feels like there are a million going all at once

your comment about the thouht of "carrying stuff around" is interesting.. memories do not get "stored" as I have always thought, when they are nto remembered its nto like they are something thrown into the melting pot of "me"... it is indeed thought "im carrying stuff around" that feels heavy...

And thats the way it still is, and how it will always be. What do you think is different now? Usually these moments you describe are ended when thought comes back but really it's not the thought itself that's the problem but the believing it. Saying: "i had a sincere moment of clarity but then thought returned" is like saying: "I was enjoying the view from this mountain top but then a flock of birds flew by". Don't exclude thoughts, they are as much part of the moment as the birds are.

Don't try to search for brighter colors, instead look for the colors that are here right now, as they are right now. Those moments of clarity are perfect for inquiry, don't let them pass without investigating them.

Hmm I guess the feeling that something is different is the different state of consciousness. A feeling of seperateness. In that moment I felt like "I" was removed, there was jus things going on and I was witness to it.


Is looking for colors a change in perception?

your analogy of the mountain with birds is very powerful..

[Faraday]

Hi Tonka,

Sorry i haven't answered yet, i was in the hospital the last few days. I will write more when i can.

Don't let this stop you from posting, it is always good to write down anything that comes up and let me know where you're at.

[tonka]

no worries I've been a litle busy too.


been gettin a few more random "moments of clarity" particularly amongst the nature.. I find it easier to lose oneself when observe the swishing trees and running rivers..


The most frequent thought that comes up that gives me trouble is related to career, lifestyle and what people will think of "me"


I often worry if Im far enough in my life as I should be (at a rational level I know I'm doing fine) or if I should have more fame, more success, more money, etc

These thoughts cause me a lot of grief at times. Thoughts of a future I haven't attained yet . Where I "should " be ,etc

[Faraday]

The most frequent thought that comes up that gives me trouble is related to career, lifestyle and what people will think of "me"

I often worry if Im far enough in my life as I should be (at a rational level I know I'm doing fine) or if I should have more fame, more success, more money, etc

These thoughts cause me a lot of grief at times. Thoughts of a future I haven't attained yet . Where I "should " be ,etc

It's hard to respond to that because it would be a Tolle-esque answer. I can tell you that you are exactly where you're supposed to be, otherwise you wouldn't be where you are right now. The problem is not where you are, it is thinking about where you should be and believing that. This will probably make sense to you on some level but it won't get you 'out'. The only way out of it is to see the things as they are and the best way to get there is through the 'no-self-gate'.

There are no shortcuts, it is not a puzzle and you can't problem solve your way out of this, it is something that can only be seen. Don't let fear, doubt and confusion stop you, you know you want this and you should want this.

I have an exercise i think is very powerful that i want you to do. Take some time and do absolutely nothing. Sit down (outside in nature if you prefer that but anywhere you can be alone without much distraction is fine), do nothing and watch what happens. I don't mean you should sit still and force yourself to do nothing because that would mean doing something. Just sit and see where your attention goes. If you see a thought, look at it, if the thought "now what?" follows, look at it, if you have an itch, notice it, if you scratch it, look at it being scratched. Do the same with the senses: if you notice sounds, listen, if you feel something in or on the body, just notice it and notice everything that follows without adding anything, trying to hold anything or trying to get rid of anything. Getting bored? notice it, thinking "i'll never get it"? notice it, Thinking "i've got it!", notice it. It really doesn't matter what kind of sensation, thought or emotion it is as long as it is seen. Try it with eyes open and closed. Let me know what you see and what happens.

[tonka]

when I try the exercise what happens is a very rapid stream of thoughts amongst the stillness of everyday life.

Projections, what ifs, possibilities in the mind occur. the more I engage in the thoughts the more stressful they become. There is a familiar sense of lack... Thoughts regarding needing to be and have more.

The thoughts seem to have no origin. That causes other thoughts "if I'm not controlling these thoughts than why are they so negative and painful" "who is it that is aware of these thoughts" A really frustrating aspect is that there is almost like a part of my experience that wants to let go and let things happen but another identifies and holds tight to the thoughts. trying to "prove" them. Of course Im X.. because of memory Y and Z.


Concentratino is really hard. Engaging with what is here and now is difficult. Thought permeates like a cloud of fog billowing over a field. The field is there but its duller, and harder to see.

[Faraday]

when I try the exercise what happens is a very rapid stream of thoughts amongst the stillness of everyday life.

Projections, what ifs, possibilities in the mind occur. the more I engage in the thoughts the more stressful they become. There is a familiar sense of lack... Thoughts regarding needing to be and have more.

The thoughts seem to have no origin. That causes other thoughts "if I'm not controlling these thoughts than why are they so negative and painful" "who is it that is aware of these thoughts" A really frustrating aspect is that there is almost like a part of my experience that wants to let go and let things happen but another identifies and holds tight to the thoughts. trying to "prove" them. Of course Im X.. because of memory Y and Z.

Concentratino is really hard. Engaging with what is here and now is difficult. Thought permeates like a cloud of fog billowing over a field. The field is there but its duller, and harder to see.

The reality IS the fog over the field! You said you wanted reality, then why do you want the fog to not be there?!

If it is hard then you're not doing it. Don't try to get anything out of this exercise, just look! What i'm asking is much more simple than what you think it is. It isn't about concentrating, it's about sitting down and just seeing what happens. If you feel like you can't concentrate, look at that feeling and look at the thoughts or feelings that follow. If you're confused, look at the confusion. Don't try to hold on to anything, just let everything happen and follow your attention. It doesn't matter if your focus goes to mind or emotions or feelings or senses, as long as you just see it happen.

After that tell me what happens, not what you think happens. Give me 100% honesty, what do you see?! Include everything!

[tonka]

The reality IS the fog over the field! You said you wanted reality, then why do you want the fog to not be there?!

I guess because it feels unclear. it feels uncomfortable. It doesn't feel like how "life should be". Haha thats more expectation creeping out.. Life feels distorted. I don't feel connected to anything, I guess more expectation but I have often felt "out of touch" to life itself. I guess the desire to not have the fog is from expectation that those who have seen past illusion see things in a clearer, more open way. I see people living happily together, not so anxiety ridden as I am and I want to be like them. more hidden expectations I notice are a sense of "awakening" an enrichening of spiritual life. A sense I had when I was a kid. a sense of wonder

If it is hard then you're not doing it. Don't try to get anything out of this exercise, just look! What i'm asking is much more simple than what you think it is. It isn't about concentrating, it's about sitting down and just seeing what happens. If you feel like you can't concentrate, look at that feeling and look at the thoughts or feelings that follow. If you're confused, look at the confusion. Don't try to hold on to anything, just let everything happen and follow your attention. It doesn't matter if your focus goes to mind or emotions or feelings or senses, as long as you just see it happen.

After that tell me what happens, not what you think happens. Give me 100% honesty, what do you see?! Include everything!

Yes it is very hard for me.. Often life itself feels hard.. when it shouldn't be.


I've tried this exercise as you described;

thoughts arise. sensations arise. witnessing of actions, sound is heard, the screen is seen. typing happens. more thoughts, thoughts about "my" life, breathing is happening. feelings of anxiety. anxiety is happening. thoughts trying to explain several different things happen.

I've noticed that all these things happen. even including the body. the fingers are typing, sound is happening. the are observed but not happening to any one person. The mind stuff is where the confusion comes up. "who is hearing the mind" "who is observing all of this"



sorry if I am being challenging with this