Still here

[Ghata]

Hi Geoffrey,

thank you for answering. Keep the ball rolling, momentum is important.

The sensations I assumed to be I were/are behind my eyes. That is where the I seemed to be centered.
It is stronger when my eyes are open. But even with eyes closed, there is still a sense of that place is me.

What do you experience exactly? Tingling or pressure or anything else behind the eyes? What shape does this me have. What is it there for?

The I is assumed. That's all it is, an assumption.

It arises from what is NOT looked at clearly.

Wow!

How did you feel when first realising these sensations were just sensations, that an 'I' cannot be found when looking at it clearly?

Please answer all questions in italic.

With love,
Ghata

[Geoffrey]

What do you experience exactly? Tingling or pressure or anything else behind the eyes? What shape does this me have. What is it there for?

It's a tingling. With some pulsing and warmth. Aliveness.

This me is shaped like a vague dark blob behind the eyes.

It is there to monitor what is happening.

How did you feel when first realising these sensations were just sensations, that an 'I' cannot be found when looking at it clearly?

I feel like I did when I realized Santa wasn't real. Other kids kept telling me this, and there was kind of a debate going on. At first I couldn't believe that my parents would lie to me, then it all seemed to make sense. It was very confusing. Kind of like a loss of trust. A loss of innocence.

If there is no I, no self, then what am I?

[Ghata]

Hi Geoffrey,

Kind of like a loss of trust. A loss of innocence.

If there is no I, no self, then what am I?

Up to now you have been living with the assumption that you have to have an 'I' in order to go through life. An I that monitors everything and is controlling life. Having had a glimpse that this assumption is not true is in fact groundshaking, questioning the most central belief you ever learnt.

Is an I necessary for living?

It is there to monitor what is happening.

Place your fingers on the keyboard and close your eyes.

What sensations do you experience? Do they have names when you feel the touch directly? Where do the names come from?

Can you tell the border between your fingers and the keyboard?

In your actual experience, can you find a feeler of these sensations and the felt sensations, or is there just feeling?

Share what you find.

With love,
Ghata

[Geoffrey]

Place your fingers on the keyboard and close your eyes.

What sensations do you experience? Do they have names when you feel the touch directly? Where do the names come from?

Can you tell the border between your fingers and the keyboard?

In your actual experience, can you find a feeler of these sensations and the felt sensations, or is there just feeling?

I experience smoothness, coolness, edges. They do not have names when felt directly. The names seem to come from memory, past experience, learning.

There is no border that I can find. It is just one sensation. It's not like, ok there are my fingers, there is the border and there are the keys.

No I cannot find a feeler, though I assume there must be one.

[Ghata]

Hi Geoffrey,

You are doing very well with the looking :-). Great description of the direct experience.

No I cannot find a feeler, though I assume there must be one.

Find out where this assumption is coming from.


With love,
Ghata

[Ghata]

For finding out do the exercise again and pay special attention to who/what says there must be somebody experiening it.

With love,
Ghata

[Geoffrey]

Find out where this assumption is coming from.

The assumption is coming from a thought. I don't know where the thought comes from, it just arises.
But it seems I have a choice to believe it or not.

[Ghata]

Hi Geoffrey,

it is a pleasure to read how clearly you can look :-).

The assumption is coming from a thought. I don't know where the thought comes from, it just arises.
But it seems I have a choice to believe it or not.

Very well seen! An assumption is a thought, arising from nowhere. Find out whether you can believe a thought.


Close your eyes. Imagine a big green watermelon. Pick it up and feel the weight. Is it ripe? Knock on it and listen to the sound to find out. Now take a knife and cut it. Feel the slightly sticky juice running over your fingers. Have a bite. Is it sweet? Then open your eyes again.

What happened to the watermelon? Was it true what thoughts said: that there actually was a watermelon?

Can you believe a thought without checking the actual experience?

Share what you find.


With love,
Ghata

[Geoffrey]

What happened to the watermelon? Was it true what thoughts said: that there actually was a watermelon?

Can you believe a thought without checking the actual experience?

Nothing happened to the watermelon, there never was one.

No, you can't believe a thought without checking the actual experience.

[Ghata]

Hi Geoffrey,

Nothing happened to the watermelon, there never was one.

No, you can't believe a thought without checking the actual experience.

Exactly. Thoughts are there, you can experience them. Their content though - the watermelon - is not. Only actual experience can tell you what is there.

You mentioned that the 'me' you feel behind the eyes is monitoring everything. Look into this monitoring in slow motion.


Very slowly, turn the head around where you are right now and notice what you see.

When you see a form, does it have a name, like table or chair? Or is it added later?

Where does the name come from?

From your first-hand experience, can you find a seer and the seen? What do you find?

Can you find a 'me', monitoring everything?

How do you feel about your discoveries?


With love,
Ghata

[Geoffrey]

Very slowly, turn the head around where you are right now and notice what you see.

When you see a form, does it have a name, like table or chair? Or is it added later?

No the form does not have a name, it is added later.

Where does the name come from?

I don't know where the name comes from, it just pops up.

From your first-hand experience, can you find a seer and the seen? What do you find?

If I focus on seeing then that is all there is, just seeing. There is no seen and seer. Out of the corners of my eyes I may see the side of my nose or an arm or leg, but without those labels it is just more seeing, there is no out there or over here. There is no this is me, and that is a chair.

Can you find a 'me', monitoring everything?

No I cannot "find" a me. But I do seem to be able to manufacture one.

How do you feel about your discoveries?

I feel conflicted. I see the logic of it but there is a sense of loss. A kind of nostalgia. Going back to realizing that there is no real Santa, I enjoyed the thrill of believing in Santa, then it was spoiled. Of course the belief in a self while it can be enjoyable also can bring great suffering.

[Ghata]

Hi Geoffrey,

If I focus on seeing then that is all there is, just seeing. There is no seen and seer. Out of the corners of my eyes I may see the side of my nose or an arm or leg, but without those labels it is just more seeing, there is no out there or over here. There is no this is me, and that is a chair.

Very nice looking :-). Only after the labels come in, there is seperation between the seer and the seen.

I feel conflicted. I see the logic of it but there is a sense of loss. A kind of nostalgia. Going back to realizing that there is no real Santa, I enjoyed the thrill of believing in Santa, then it was spoiled. Of course the belief in a self while it can be enjoyable also can bring great suffering

Grieving the loss of something as familiar as the sense of self is very natural.

Tell me more about how the self can be enjoyable and how it can bring great suffering.

No I cannot "find" a me. But I do seem to be able to manufacture one.

I am curious. How do you manufacture a 'me' ? What is it made of? How do you make yourself believe it's real?
And who made it in the end?

With love,
Ghata

[Geoffrey]

Tell me more about how the self can be enjoyable and how it can bring great suffering.

Perhaps I should have said the "belief" in a self. With the belief is the thought that this is happening to me.
Without that belief it's just happening. For instance the feeling of pride at having accomplished something can only come with the belief that "I" did it. The hurt from being insulted can also only come from a sense of self.

Without a sense of self there are just sensations in the body.

I am curious. How do you manufacture a 'me' ? What is it made of? How do you make yourself believe it's real?
And who made it in the end?

A me seems to be manufactured when labels are believed. There sometimes seems to be a forgetting.
So it is made of beliefs. Or another way of putting it, "thoughts taken to be truth"

Nobody made it, it just happens.

[Ghata]

Hi Geoffrey,

Without that belief it's just happening. For instance the feeling of pride at having accomplished something can only come with the belief that "I" did it. The hurt from being insulted can also only come from a sense of self.

You are right, "You" didn't accomplish anything. At the same time, you still may enjoy what was accomplished and you may still feel hurt when being insulted. Seeing that the 'I' is just an Illusion doesn't mean that you turn completely numb. It can take the sting out of a hurt though.

A me seems to be manufactured when labels are believed. There sometimes seems to be a forgetting.
So it is made of beliefs. Or another way of putting it, "thoughts taken to be truth"

Nobody made it, it just happens.

Very well said. :-)

What is different now compared to the beginning of our dialogue?

Did you notice any changes in your everyday life since we started the discussion? How do you experience the situations you encounter, nice ones and difficult ones?


With much love,
Ghata

[Geoffrey]

[quote][What is different now compared to the beginning of our dialogue?

Did you notice any changes in your everyday life since we started the discussion? How do you experience the situations you encounter, nice ones and difficult ones?
/quote]

Nothing is different, nothing has changed.

I more and more experience situations like an actor in a play. I see myself and others playing their various roles.
I don't take anything personally. This may have come about from seeing that there is no person. Or it may have just happened. I don't know.