Seeking to realize

[mangoanna]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand that there is just life manifesting itself and this body that "I" feel as "mine" is an expression of that. What I feel to be me is awareness. The stories that I tell and use to define me are simply that, stories.

What are you looking for at LU?
I've been reading the Enlightened Quotes app and I think I understand; however I want to be asked questions and guided to really examine the concept. I'm seeking to turn knowledge of this concept into something experienced.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I'm expecting that I will have to examine current belief systems, be open and honest. I have been mulling over the concept of no separate self and I feel like I keep getting so close to direct realization but then I get distracted and I get wrapped right back up in my story. I am hoping that another being who has had that realization and this format will help keep me accountable as I seek.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have been on a path that I'm not sure when or how it started. I am working with an energy healer for about 10 months now and have been exploring past lives, vipassana meditation and dimensions beyond the physically seen.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?: 10

[Andrei]

Hi there,

Welcome to LU. I would be happy to help you with your inquiry.

however I want to be asked questions and guided to really examine the concept. I'm seeking to turn knowledge of this concept into something experienced.

What is it that stops you from experiencing IT right here and right now?
Is there anything that still feels "personal"?


Cheers!



Andrei

[mangoanna]

Hi Andrei,

Thank you for guiding me!

There is an attachment to the idea of a personal, individual soul. It's the story that there is something intangible and separate from my body that makes "me" me. It's a story I'm willing to stop, however it keeps sneaking back up into thoughts.

To be really honest, there is a part of my brain that wants external approval that I'm on the right track.

Thank you again!

Anna

[Andrei]

Hi Anna,

There is an attachment to the idea of a personal, individual soul.

You read the Quotes app so I presume you're familiar with the technique we use, the Direct Experience. If not please let me know and we can talk about it.

Can you find a soul in DE?

It's a story I'm willing to stop, however it keeps sneaking back up into thoughts.

Hmm, does that mean there's a "you" in thoughts as well? Do "you" create/own thoughts?

We need to talk about everything you identify with, otherwise the idea of a self will keep sneaking back on you, using any means it finds lol.

To be really honest, there is a part of my brain that wants external approval that I'm on the right track.

Nothing to worry about. Everybody needs to figure out where they are at a certain point. It's not something we're familiar with, something we forgot and now we're remembering it. It's virgin territory.

[mangoanna]

Hi Andrei!

I am familiar with the exercises in the app, however I'd like to learn about it. Could we do some exercises?

Can you find a soul in DE?

It's only found in passing thought as a concept. It cannot be felt, seen, heard, smelled. It is found in none of the senses.

There is no owning of things including thoughts. There are thoughts that happen and there is the awareness present to experience it.
I identify with being the do-er or being the witness still. When listening to music I identified with the "i" in the moment the thought of "I'm listening to music" came up. I identify with awareness.

[Andrei]

DE is the original input one gets through SENSATIONS and SENSES, that tension you feel in your arm before labelling it as good (a tickle) or bad (a burn), the noise you hear before you interpret it as coming from a vehicle or elsewhere. DE is what is, prior to any sort of interpretations done by the mind.

As an exercise, you could just stay with the initial input for a while, try not to label anything.

It's only found in passing thought as a concept. It cannot be felt, seen, heard, smelled. It is found in none of the senses.

A very good example of DE actually.
Well then? Is there such thing as a soul? :)

I identify with being the do-er or being the witness still.

Get up… walk slowly… is there a controller that controls walking? Or is there just walking?

I identify with awareness.

Are "you" awareness or does awareness simply happen?
If the former, where would the self be located?

[mangoanna]

There is the concept or story of a soul. Only a belief but there are no sensations of it being here and now. If it did exist who is there to say that it would belong to me anyways? How can a concept(the concept of "I") own another concept? Or for that matter how can it own something real?

Get up...walk slowly... is there a controller that controls walking? Or is there just walking

There is the sensation of carpet against feet. There is a sense of being alive as I walk. Thoughts arise as do feelings...often paired with the label "I". Decisions are made to walk left, right or around a pile of clothes on the floor and then there is the awareness that "I chose to walk left"etc...however there is no one really doing the deciding. There is a body moving and thoughts/feelings/emotions arising...and that's all I can find.

Are "you" awareness or does awareness simply happen?

I can't find a location, the "me" in awareness is just existing as a thought. There is awareness happening plus the thought "This is me" happening. The awareness is real. The thought is real. The contents of the thought doesn't have to be real.

[Andrei]

How can a concept(the concept of "I") own another concept? Or for that matter how can it own something real?

I like how you worded that. I might steal it and use it when guiding others hehe

There is a body moving and thoughts/feelings/emotions arising...and that's all I can find.

Perfect!

The contents of the thought doesn't have to be real.

Is reality r e a l or just a construct of our imagination? Are our senses/sensations the truth or could they be just a subjective way in which we construct reality? Is truth t r u e or just another concept?

Basically what I'm asking is if can we know anything at all?

Another thing, is there a "witness" or is there witnessing just happening? Is there a watcher separated from the seen?

On to choices. Have you ever made any choice at all or did choices simply happened?

[mangoanna]

Is reality r e a l or just a construct of our imagination? Are our senses/sensations the truth or could they be just a subjective way in which we construct reality?

Things happen and there are perceptions of the thing that happened. There is the feeling of truth in an experience and there is simply the truth of the thing.

That sounds a little nonsensical when rereading...I'll try to explain more with this example.
I have a friend who is colorblind. If he looked at a striped Christmas sweater he would see various shades of grey stripes. I look at the same sweater and I see red and green. Both looking at it the same time, the colors don't stop existing. Which experience is true? Both based on the senses that feel true.
The sweater is just being...it is what it is. The labels "red and green" or "grey" are subjective to experience, the thing actually being experienced is the truth.

Is truth t r u e or just another concept?

“This is true” is a concept and there is simply the truth of what is.

Basically what I'm asking is if can we know anything at all?

I can't know anything because I is a thought-not real. There is knowing, there are perceptions/thoughts based on what was perceived. There is knowing if the conditions are right.

Have you ever made any choice at all or did choices simply happened?

Thoughts about "I" came up a lot when thinking about this question. In my story, I am vegan. It is a label, a word. However I feel attachment to the idea that I choose this. It feels harder to see clearly when there is more of the Anna story involved. But if I break it down just like the walking exercise maybe it will become clear. After all walking and choosing are both just actions.

I'm at a cafe and I have the choice of what to order. What is really there:
There is a body. There is a menu listing choices. There are the thoughts, "What do I want?", "What sounds good?", "I don't want that, " I won't eat that." etc. There is the sense of being alive. There are various feelings that come up; desire, repulsion, disinterest. There is awareness that this is all happening. There are the words "Can I order..."

There is no one doing this. Just like walking...there is just choosing being done and the label "I chose that" pops up almost immediately.

[Andrei]

Great answers all around!

What about the other objects(nature, animals,people)? Is there a "you" that feels separated from them or is that just another thought/concept?

And because I'm almost out of questions :) I want you to do a short scan through your harddisk, looking for any suspicious files that might contain something "personal", a belief pertaining to the existence of a self, and let me know if you found anything, or anything else you have doubts and want to talk about it.

[mangoanna]

Hi Andrei!

I have been letting things marinate for the past couple days :)

What about the other objects(nature, animals,people)? Is there a "you" that feels separated from them or is that just another thought/concept?

At first a lot of thoughts came up like, "How can we not be separate...that's a cat and this is me....I'm not a cat, so of course we're separate?" Or I got tripped up when looking at another person thinking,"I don't know what he is thinking so there must be separation here." But I realized that those are thought constructs. What was actually there? The thought constructs are there. The cat is there. The other person is there. Emotions are there. The floor is there. The breeze is there. The sense of being alive is there. etc. So much is there but "I" isn't really anywhere. I'm seeing that there is no separation really, there may be lot's of different objects/people/whatever but it's all just a part of life happening. The Anna story, the feeling(thought) "I am here.", "my" body is all a part of the life picture. I can focus on it but that doesn't make it separate from Life.

I want you to do a short scan through your harddisk, looking for any suspicious files that might contain something "personal"

I like this analogy! Thoughts about I come up all the time. I float in and out of my story, the stories that are more ingrained or cause a deeper reaction sometimes makes the thoughts about "I" seem really real and confusing...but if I take stock of what is really there it gets clear again.

This is all just the beginning of things isn't it?

[Andrei]

The Anna story, the feeling(thought) "I am here.", "my" body is all a part of the life picture. I can focus on it but that doesn't make it separate from Life.

Love the clarity!

This is all just the beginning of things isn't it?

It is indeed. For many, the "work" is just getting started. Being more knowledgeable and observant you will start seeing all the hidden beliefs, the more ingrained stories, at work but now that you have a working technique you will know how to deal with them. Just watch Life - as you very nicely put it - guide you through all of it. :)


When the “I” has been seen through, fully and completely, what's left?

[mangoanna]

Just watch Life guide you through all of it. :)

How beautiful!

When the “I” has been seen through, fully and completely, what's left?

Everything is still exactly as it is and there's room to play. The ME story is going to happen, it's still a part of life, playing around with the me story doesn't feel so serious.

It doesn't feel like what's left as much as it feels like what else is here? What is real and happening but hasn't been experienced because the mind has been focused on maintaining "I"? There is so much desire and excitement here. There is the here and now.

[Andrei]

Sounds great Anna. I have no more questions/pointers to give. It was lovely chatting with you.
I'm going to check with the other guides, see if there's something we might have missed talking about.

We have a few extra resources here, including a few FB groups for further inquiry and aftercare so hope to see you there! :)

[Andrei]

Ok, you didn't get rid of us just yet. :) It's best to be on the safe side so I have a few more things to ask. They encompass pretty much everything there is so if there's anything we didn't talk about, it should appear now.
Please take as much time as you need.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
6) Anything to add?