How To Experience Life Beyond The Person

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AnthonyD
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How To Experience Life Beyond The Person

Postby AnthonyD » Fri Jul 14, 2017 1:22 pm

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I still think I am a person with a mind/body. I read that I am 'knowing', I Am That, I am Non-Conceptual Presence Awareness. I meditate with a mantra. I stop meditating. I decide to go meet another master in India, then I read there is no-one to get enlightened and no-one here so there is no point in going. Hopefully, LU will guide me a bit.

What are you looking for at LU?
I meditate and read in relative isolation, so perhaps a personal conversation would be helpful.
It would certainly be more convenient than going back to India at this time in my life!
I seem to be bouncing from one teacher to the next recently.
This is facilitated by YouTube and it is great, but hard to commit to one teacher in the traditional sense.
LU arrived on my screen today and I'm following leads as they arise I suppose.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Perhaps a guide will be able to make me aware of things that I am otherwise missing on my own, because these things are too obvious, or I'm conditioned not to see them, or my ego/body/mind construct is working overtime to distract me from the truth.
A personal approach/appraisal, maybe.
I am not really expecting anything.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Raised in a devout Catholic family and went to church every Sunday until the age 14. Had a great love for Jesus as a child.
Around 18 years, I first heard of the notion of "enlightenment".
At 21 I began to meditate with a mantra and after several years was given "shaktipat".
At 26 I had a profound dream and travelled to India. Did "seva" for my Guru for a few years.
Bought I AM THAT by Nisargadatta in 1991 and have read and re-read it continuously ever since.

At 38 I eventually stopped sadhana completely and studied Fine Arts for a decade instead.

Went to India again in 2013 and felt the longing for the truth fire up again.
Read all of Ramana Maharshi's books and discovered Advaita Vedanta and Non-Dualism.
Now when I meditate I can feel the movement of "Kundalini Shakti" in my neck. She turns my head gently around.
Lately, I'm reading and listening to a lot of different teachers: Rupert Spira, Sri Ramakant Maharaj, Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj, Sailor Bob Adamson and Alain Klein are the main ones.
Do I do practices or do I do nothing? Seems to be my daily dilemma.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?: 11

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Jchristensen
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Re: How To Experience Life Beyond The Person

Postby Jchristensen » Sun Jul 16, 2017 9:17 pm

Hi Anthony (is that correct?).

I'm Juri, your guide with Liberation Unleashed.

Thanks for reaching out. I'll do my best to help you.

The guiding is done by me questioning your positions and propositions and by giving you exercises that are meant for you to see, for yourself, what you aren't.

But just to make it clear: You ARE both mind and body and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. I too am mind and body and getting comfortable with that is important, for as you can't outrun your own shadow you won't get anywhere by trying to rid yourself of you. Self is another matter, but we'll get to that.

Let's get started with the first exercise:

Please reread what you have written to answer the five introductory questions.

Shorten this to five single words that best describe the call/urge in you for liberation (could be things/states you want, or things/states you want to leave, or a mix of the two... but only five in all. There's no hocus pocus in the number five, just a means of distilling what's most important.

Cheers, Juri (a Dane, so excuse my English if is isn't all correct).

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AnthonyD
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Re: How To Experience Life Beyond The Person

Postby AnthonyD » Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:44 am

Hi Juri,

Thanks for getting back to me. Your English is fine! Much better than my Danish.

Ok, five single words that best describe the call/urge for liberation:

Truth
Freedom
Peace
Time
Death

I look forward to hearing from you.

AnthonyD

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Jchristensen
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Re: How To Experience Life Beyond The Person

Postby Jchristensen » Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:51 am

Hi Anthony,

Thank you.


OK. At the bottom of this post are some pointers about the format of the LU guding process. Please read these.

The guiding LU style is done though questions and exercises I offer you. You are of course welcome to aske questions outside of my line of inquiry but please point most of your "spiritual" cognition towards just looking at the questions and exercises.

Exercise 1
Thank you for boiling your initial writing down to five words. If you, now or later, feel it's right to expand or change the list that's fine too. Now, it's popular to imagine oneself as an onion... with a core and layers and layers of rings which in so called spirutual circles are thought of as sheaths of senses and/or illusions.
Truth
Freedom
Peace
Time
Death

... are the five words. Now, let's just say that there isn't a core of/in you at all, but getting to That fact requires you to peel of scabs of words, concepts, sensations of Me and so on.

1) Please sit down.
2) Sense your body.
3) Feel one/more places on your body that resonate with the five Words (Note: No hocus pocus, chakras, nadis or any importance on Where the scabs are... it's just getting a tactile sensation that's my goal)

4) Peel off the scab of say Truth.
5) Do it again until the scab is all off.
6) Stop if it starts to bleed. Continue later on.
7) Pick another of the five Words and do it in the same manner. This exercise might take you a few days. Fine. If you have any questions or resistance please post it so I can see. If not, fine... just continue.

What do you sense having done this peeling off?

Cheers, Juri.


POINTERS

Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation.

Write from experience, not speculation. This is so important! Examine Experience as it is, instead of resorting to Speculation and/or theory-forming.

Be 100% honest. It is very easy to deceive oneself, especially when it comes to something as subtle as questioning your existence. Strive to be completely honest and transparent as to what is actually happening in your experience.

Post regularly. We've found that it is important to create a proper Momentum in order to successfully carry out this investigation. What's needed is focus and intensity. Posting once every day, or every other day is best. Of course your answers should be founded in a due process of understanding my question or exercise, working on it and answering clearly, so no rush either.

Please learn to use the quote function, as this makes guiding even more direct. When logged into The Gate Forum go to: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660.

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Jchristensen
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Re: How To Experience Life Beyond The Person

Postby Jchristensen » Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:54 am

I hope This link to the instruction of WHO to use the quote function works: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

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AnthonyD
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Re: How To Experience Life Beyond The Person

Postby AnthonyD » Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:13 pm

Hi Juri,

Thanks for the pointers and the link.
it's popular to imagine oneself as an onion
Yes, I was actually contemplating the onion analogy this weekend before you contacted me.
Now, let's just say that there isn't a core of/in you at all, but getting to That fact requires you to peel of scabs of words, concepts, sensations of Me and so on.

1) Please sit down.
2) Sense your body.
3) Feel one/more places on your body that resonate with the five Words (Note: No hocus pocus, chakras, nadis or any importance on Where the scabs are... it's just getting a tactile sensation that's my goal)

4) Peel off the scab of say Truth.
5) Do it again until the scab is all off.
6) Stop if it starts to bleed. Continue later on.
7) Pick another of the five Words and do it in the same manner. This exercise might take you a few days. Fine. If you have any questions or resistance please post it so I can see. If not, fine... just continue.

What do you sense having done this peeling off?
Sitting quietly sensing the body.
At first I resist... "another silly visualisation exercise".
I ignore this thought and continue.
The word Truth immediately went to the forehead. After it was peeled off some liquid came out but it was not bleeding. A hole was left behind and the word 'clarity'. There is something in the hole but I can't tell what it is.
The Freedom scab appeared on the chest and when peeled left behind healed pink skin.
The Peace scab was on the right forearm and also left behind pink skin.
Here I stopped and re-read your instructions and the pointers.
I made sure not to speculate or theorise and just note the experience.
The Time scab was on the right knee and came off easily.
Death did not so readily form a scab somewhere but it seemed to be either on the forehead again or the chest again. Anyway, I see the Death scab and it comes away easily.

Having done the exercise I wanted to conceptualise it but this was met by the sense that the exercise itself was meant to peel away concepts and indicate the nothingness behind them.
I have the feeling that there is nothing behind the linguistic conceptualising associated with these words.

Regards,
Anthony

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Jchristensen
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Re: How To Experience Life Beyond The Person

Postby Jchristensen » Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:21 pm

Hi Anthony.

We try not to be (too ;o) silly here, so no silly exercises.

Each of the exercises could, potentially, be the one drop that shifts your perspective. But no rush, you are here now, and you will be here after too.

You did the exercise quickly.

Exercise 2
Please repeat the exercise again, and this time continue until you have peeled off all of your flesh. What then is left of you? Please don't answer until you've felt both the agony and bliss of losing the body, and until you really have to stretch your senses to sense yourself.

And a question...
The word Truth immediately went to the forehead.

What is Truth?

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AnthonyD
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Re: How To Experience Life Beyond The Person

Postby AnthonyD » Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:08 pm

Ok Juri,

Thanks again.

Yes, I sense my impatience. I'll do it again and get back to you.

Anthony

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Re: How To Experience Life Beyond The Person

Postby Jchristensen » Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:26 pm

Hi Anthony.

All's right. We're just finding a common rythm.


Not that is need take you as long but it did take me 25 years of seeking before the penny dropped, and eight years more for a second, less profound, but much more relaxed seeing. Let's see if we can't help you to 'get it' faster than that. But, it does take some effort. To quote The Yoga Aphorisms of Patanjali (now that you have been studying in India):

14: Practice becomes firmly grounded when it has been cultivated for a long time, uninterruptedly, with earnest devotion.

Love, Juri.

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AnthonyD
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Re: How To Experience Life Beyond The Person

Postby AnthonyD » Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:39 am

Hi again Juri,

I want to start today by saying thank you very much for having this conversation with me. It's kind of a miracle to have found you! It is amazing that you are spending time communicating with a stranger without asking any money. I am astounded. Thank you.
Exercise 2
Please repeat the exercise again, and this time continue until you have peeled off all of your flesh. What then is left of you? Please don't answer until you've felt both the agony and bliss of losing the body, and until you really have to stretch your senses to sense yourself.
1.
I sat down to treat this like a meditation exercise.

At first it was difficult to focus or to find a "viewpoint".

'Truth' was on the forehead so this time I ripped off the forehead, the face, the hair and the flesh on the back of the head.

I tore off the flesh around the neck and moved down to the shoulders.

There was still the skull there so I got rid of that too.

The word 'freedom' was on the chest so I ripped off the flesh of the chest and the arms.

'Peace' was on my stomach area so I ripped that away with the pelvis.

Things got blurry after about 45 minutes and it was hard to stay focussed.

I went to bed thinking about having the flesh torn away.

2
I woke up keen to get started again. My first thought today was: What is left of me if all my flesh is gone?

This time I tried to focus on the flesh-tearing happening to this body here rather than picturing it in the second person as I had done in the previous session.

I was trying to imagine/feel the agony, but lately after more than 30 minutes of sitting a kind of bliss naturally arises. I ignore this bliss and continue ripping the flesh away. Starting with the head and moving down to the legs.

I did this a number of times.

I did get an image/feeling of having no flesh/body but I was still aware of the cat hanging around and of the noises outside.

Can I still be aware without a body?

My nose was itchy and I scratched it and thought "My face is still here."

I needed to concentrate to keep up the idea of no body/flesh.

An hour passed very quickly.


3
The next session a few hours later was more intense.

I began with the head and the word 'truth' again. This time the top of the head was cut open and the brain was pulled out and squashed. A voice said "There is no truth in here, just muck and nothing!" The eardrums were punctured and the ears cut off. Then the eyes were gouged out and the nose sliced off. I was imagining the agony of this but I was not truly feeling it (I'm kind of glad about that!). The tongue was cut out, the teeth pulled out and the bottom jaw ripped off. Then the flesh around the neck was ripped away and the throat torn out. All the bones in the hands and arms were pulverised then cut off. The flesh around the torso was cut away, the rib cage smashed open and the heart, lungs, stomach and organs destroyed and thrown out. The intestines were pulled out. The genitals were ripped off and the pelvis smashed. The bones in the feet and legs were smashed to pulp and then they were cut off. All the remaining bits were cut into tiny pieces and dispersed. Somewhere a voice was saying "nothing, nothing" and "nobody in there". There was nothing left of the body.

This body seemed to have existed and to have been destroyed within the space of awareness. The awareness remained.

There was stillness now and the familiar bliss rising up. I had been sitting for about 45 minutes then went through the visualisation again from head to toe just to be sure there was no flesh left.

It was blissful and still to be aware of the empty space left by the body. It was no longer an effort to sustain the idea of 'no body'.

There is a fear of that kind of pain and there was genuine revulsion during the exercise, but despite my vivid imagination, I am not actually feeling the agony. I do feel the bliss of losing the body, but the 'me' is still here. There is still a 'me' experiencing bliss. If there was agony, there would also be a 'me' experiencing that too.

Your question was also in there floating around...
What is Truth?
Truth is not false, fake, or phoney. Truth is real and authentic. Truth is that which was hidden, revealed.
Truth is eternally changeless.

Am I nothing or am I everything? Neither or both? What is Truth? Am I Truth?

I am not Anthony, I am Truth... Eternally changeless and with nothing to do with this false, fake, phoney world. I am the vast, aware space within which everything is.

That all sounds great, but is it The Truth?
Please don't answer until you've felt both the agony and bliss of losing the body, and until you really have to stretch your senses to sense yourself.
I don't think I quite understand what you mean by...
until you really have to stretch your senses to sense yourself
I'm hoping you won't think of me as a 'spiritual tourist' to be taken to the airlock and jettisoned into deep space as I'm actually very sincere Juri!

Again, I do very much appreciate your time and effort in guiding me through this and I look forward to reading your response.

Kind regards
Anthony

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Re: How To Experience Life Beyond The Person

Postby AnthonyD » Thu Jul 20, 2017 12:25 am

Hi Juri,
Exercise 2
Please repeat the exercise again, and this time continue until you have peeled off all of your flesh. What then is left of you? Please don't answer until you've felt both the agony and bliss of losing the body, and until you really have to stretch your senses to sense yourself.
14: Practice becomes firmly grounded when it has been cultivated for a long time, uninterruptedly, with earnest devotion.
Should I just keep doing it?

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Re: How To Experience Life Beyond The Person

Postby Jchristensen » Thu Jul 20, 2017 4:42 am

Hi Anthony.

Sorry for not getting back, and for this answer being short. I'm travelling a bit, but will be full on again Sundsy.

No, now stop the peeling.

For the next days just relax, and the only practice you should do is, when you sit down to do it, is to say - or indeed exclaim, the word "Peace". Send it out into you body/mind/surrounding like a becon or sonar. Don't think or speculate on what it means or what it should be... or what comes back. Clear your mind, body, emotions... and when still, "ring the bell", hitting the word/vibration/remembrance of Peace.

OK?

Any questions? Please ask.

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AnthonyD
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Re: How To Experience Life Beyond The Person

Postby AnthonyD » Thu Jul 20, 2017 8:22 am

Hi Anthony.

Sorry for not getting back, and for this answer being short. I'm travelling a bit, but will be full on again Sundsy.

No, now stop the peeling.

For the next days just relax, and the only practice you should do is, when you sit down to do it, is to say - or indeed exclaim, the word "Peace". Send it out into you body/mind/surrounding like a becon or sonar. Don't think or speculate on what it means or what it should be... or what comes back. Clear your mind, body, emotions... and when still, "ring the bell", hitting the word/vibration/remembrance of Peace.

OK?

Any questions? Please ask.
Hi Juri,

Happy trails.

Peeling stopped.

Relax in Peace. Got it.

No Questions.

Peace.

Anthony

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Re: How To Experience Life Beyond The Person

Postby AnthonyD » Sun Jul 23, 2017 5:27 pm

Hi Anthony.

Sorry for not getting back, and for this answer being short. I'm travelling a bit, but will be full on again Sundsy.

No, now stop the peeling.

For the next days just relax, and the only practice you should do is, when you sit down to do it, is to say - or indeed exclaim, the word "Peace". Send it out into you body/mind/surrounding like a becon or sonar. Don't think or speculate on what it means or what it should be... or what comes back. Clear your mind, body, emotions... and when still, "ring the bell", hitting the word/vibration/remembrance of Peace.

OK?

Any questions? Please ask.
Hi Juri

It’s Sunday evening here.

I’ve been doing the “Peace” exercise for the last few days. Sitting and repeating it in meditation and also while I’m getting around doing stuff. I've been pretty relaxed about it. I observe that when I repeat “Peace, peace, peace” “like a beacon or sonar”, the word loses all meaning and just becomes a sound like a bird chirping.

I’m not feeling particularly peaceful, I’m just kind of nothing. I’m even wondering at times if I’m depressed!

I did explode in anger the other day about something trivial. My wife said I should tell you that the more I meditate, the grumpier I seem to get. It completely drained me of energy and I don’t really know where it came from. Things are actually good and I have a lot to be grateful for.

Meanwhile, I feel like I am kind of disassociating from life. This is not something I’m deliberately trying to do… just a feeling. I don’t want anything and I don’t care what happens. The food gets cooked, the dishes get done, the work happens and I’m watching.

That blissful kind of energy I mentioned to you before is in my neck a lot lately, but the overall feeling is more blank, blah and nothing than bliss. And this is all very subtle of course.

I wonder if I’m thinking less. There is a thought process taking place while I’m writing this to you, but really I can’t tell if I’m thinking less or not. You ask the mind: “Am I thinking less?” And of course, the mind then goes quiet!

I haven’t been reading anybody else at all this week as per the LU guidelines. I do miss Sailor Bob’s talk and I’ve been tempted to have another read of Rupert Spira’s book. But I stayed strong and just repeated “Peace, peace, peace”.

I look forward to hearing from you

Peace Peace Peace

Anthony

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Jchristensen
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Re: How To Experience Life Beyond The Person

Postby Jchristensen » Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:39 am

Hi Anthony.

Sorry for being away.

I'll get back to you later today (Monday).

Juri


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