To dissolve

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SG108
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To dissolve

Postby SG108 » Sat Jul 01, 2017 2:51 pm

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I agree there is no inherent self, I would just like to go through this process to totally undermine any remaining sense of a permanent self.

What are you looking for at LU?
A lasting realization that there is no self. To enjoy a conversation with some one who has genuinely seen through the lack of an inherent 'I' and who lives a happy life. A happy life is a life absent of psychological suffering and this I believe is possible once the 'I' is seen through as not being there. Hopefully this can occur following an LU conversation.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Not sure, maybe some one who can guide me who has really lived this realization in situations which could be seen as challenging to an 'ego'. I expect the conversation to be mutually respectful in that the person I correspond with is not flippant but uses cogent language to guide me through seeing through the inherent self false idea.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Seeker since 1992. Read many non dual books, practiced a lot of self inquiry. Used The Sedona Method, The Work, meditated, met spiritual teachers. Also used qigong and Reiki as releasing and somatic ways to let go of energy blocks.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?: 10

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Andrei
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Re: To dissolve

Postby Andrei » Sun Jul 02, 2017 2:21 pm

Hi there,

Welcome to LU. Let's see how we can help you out.

First of all. Right here, right now. Where is the self? Can you locate it?

It's as simple as that. Don't try to "understand" or "prove" the existance or non-existance of it. Just look.

Second, check to see if something appears trying to bridge the gap between reality and fantasy (self) and write down what it is. Is it a sense of self, or a thought that says "I'm doing this" or "I'm in here"? How does the self takes control?



Andrei

SG108
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Re: To dissolve

Postby SG108 » Sun Jul 02, 2017 5:01 pm

Hi Andrei,

thank you for your time to reply :-)

Right here right now words just pop up and perceiving is occurring; as there is a sense of calm here there is no where where I can locate a self.

There does appear as if something is trying to bridge the gap between reality and fantasy...a projection of 'me' driving my car in the next few days and getting annoyed when other drivers behave in potentially dangerous ways with their driving habits.

There is a sense of a strong memory from previous driving experiences and a bodily contraction bought up by the memory. Yet as I type here it's OK and the sense is this 'self' is more like an troublesome ghost in the works that hijacks peace.

The 'self' seems to take control by wanting what is to be other than what is during times when as with driving or when our recent guests who have just gone; wanting them to have gone sooner.

Then things calm down as negative thought agitation subsides....till the nest trigger.

Thanks

SG

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Andrei
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Re: To dissolve

Postby Andrei » Sun Jul 02, 2017 5:47 pm

a projection of 'me' driving my car in the next few days and getting annoyed when other drivers behave in potentially dangerous ways with their driving habits.
Is there anything real in that projection or is it just a habitual action going on? What I mean is, is it (a) "you" have anything to do with it or is it (b) just something that is happening independently?

In case it's (a), how do "you" do it? How do you co-create that situation, give birth to that reactivity?

In case it's (b), just a habitual action going on, by seeing it like it is, there is a technique that can help and it involves staying in the gap, imagining the scenario (that triggers reactions) and staying with the unpleasant feelings b e f o r e reacting. In time the reactions will be less and less to the point of being gone completely.

I have to tell you what I'm talking about above is a bit different than what this forum is for - seeing through the illusion of the self, aka the first fetter. Those reactions going on that you mentioned sound like belonging to the 5th fetter - that of ill will. We can do both. Indeed, they are all beliefs + bad habits. It's just that they might be a tad bit more advanced so don't worry if it might take longer to see through them.
-----
And because I don't want us to go too further and skip any important 1st fetter steps, Im going to ask you a few questions, even though they might be easy for you, it's better not to leave anything behind:

When I say "There is no you", is there any tension, any arising fear?

When you use the term "I" or "me", what do you mean by it? (And I mean anything - awareness, thoughts, body, sensations, whatever feels "personal")

And last, is there a watcher separate from the seen?

SG108
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Re: To dissolve

Postby SG108 » Sun Jul 02, 2017 7:41 pm

Thanks for your input Andrie
In case it's (a), how do "you" do it? How do you co-create that situation, give birth to that reactivity?
'I' the relative me i.e. memory, beliefs, experiences; all changing yet some more solid patterns co-creates annoyance with the trigger eg bad drivers such as a lorry driving driving towards me around a blind bend last week and nearly causing a major traffic incident. This is not independent of this relative me; as the driver's behavior was dangerous.

My reaction was one: stop my car before 'I' the relative body/mind was killed and then two: there was fear arising, then three: anger as I used my car's horn to protest to that passing lorry driver. Some people would not react this way. 'I' the relative me reacted based on past experience of bad drivers and the thought 'again another idiot driver', my father's imprinting I consider a genetic and behavioral imprinting as he was an expressive driver. I don't condone my reaction or my father's.

I could have said b)
(b), just a habitual action going on
But a) seems more relatively real as behavior is dependent on memory, genetics, experience, imprinting energy. And can still arise after the 'I' is seen as not inherent. As the body retains memory in it's cells.
Those reactions going on that you mentioned sound like belonging to the 5th fetter - that of ill will.
Agree.
When I say "There is no you", is there any tension, any arising fear?
At the moment no tension, no fear.....rater relief.
When you use the term "I" or "me", what do you mean by it? (And I mean anything - awareness, thoughts, body, sensations, whatever feels "personal")
Using 'I' I mostly refer to a relative me...thoughts, body, sensations, strong feelings, impulses. An ever changing set of these i.e. thoughts, body etc. Occasionally and more so 'I' is seen as pure awareness no self.
And last, is there a watcher separate from the seen?
There is a watcher a subtle sense of one, ultimately and truly there is just naked awareness as the ground of Being...not an entity rather a cognizant knowing that cannot be objectified. Whether the 'witness' or the awareness, the seen is not separate. How can it be? As nothing exists outside perceiving which is awareness itself. The seen is awareness appearing as the illusion of other when really it is all one fabric or field so to speak.

Yet! To be honest this ego/I a false witness here at least is not seen through totally and at times the ego/I false sense feels separate, angry and fearful.

Over to you. :-)

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Andrei
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Re: To dissolve

Postby Andrei » Sun Jul 02, 2017 9:05 pm

For starters I would like to introduce you to direct experience (aka direct pointing). This is the most important technique we use in this inquiry.
DE is the original input one gets through sensations and senses, that tension you feel in your arm before labeling it as good (a tickle) or bad (a burn), the noise you hear before you interpret it as coming from a vehicle. DE is what is when you take away all interpretation.

Using 'I' I mostly refer to a relative me...thoughts, body, sensations, strong feelings, impulses. An ever changing set of these i.e. thoughts, body etc. Occasionally and more so 'I' is seen as pure awareness no self.
Ok will talk about each and every one of them. let's start with thoughts.
Can you think and choose a thought right now? Stay in DE and watch the thought forming and tell me how you did it. What are the steps?

There is a watcher a subtle sense of one, ultimately and truly there is just naked awareness as the ground of Being...not an entity rather a cognizant knowing that cannot be objectified. Whether the 'witness' or the awareness, the seen is not separate. How can it be? As nothing exists outside perceiving which is awareness itself. The seen is awareness appearing as the illusion of other when really it is all one fabric or field so to speak.
Well, this is confusing. There is a subtle sense of a watcher but ultimately the seen is not separate?

In DE, is there a watcher separate from the seen? When you stay in the watching is there any self?

When you focus on the object doing the watching and the object being watched then you create separation. That separation might give the idea of of a self, but its really nothing more than objects focusing, or awareness coming out to play. Things happen and then interpretations pop up.

SG108
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Re: To dissolve

Postby SG108 » Sun Jul 02, 2017 10:35 pm

No from DE I cannot choose a thought right now. A thought appears to call the process 'I am thinking' but in DE this is just a thought. I cannot tell you how a thought arises it just does from DE it appears to be automatic. From DE there does not seem to be any steps. Thoughts arise, there are gaps, thought arises, subsides.....From this line of understanding then an 'I' doing all these thoughts appears absent.
Well, this is confusing. There is a subtle sense of a watcher but ultimately the seen is not separate?
In DE there is no watcher separate from the seen,,,,there is just seeing, with no watcher. Whether we use the words watching or seeing in DE there is no entity doing that. Again in DE there is just seeing.
When you focus on the object doing the watching and the object being watched then you create separation. That separation might give the idea of of a self, but its really nothing more than objects focusing, or awareness coming out to play. Things happen and then interpretations pop up.
That does make sense.

O I really love that one :-)
awareness coming out to play
Yes I get that....so simple. Thanks.....even now after all these years trying yo grok it...wow!

And the story of an 'I' losing that recognition there is just awareness now seems ludicrous :-) Thank you.

SG108
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Re: To dissolve

Postby SG108 » Sun Jul 02, 2017 10:50 pm

Thanks Andrei

When the penny drops the penny drops.

No self, no chooser, things just arise, all that arises is awareness, as awareness....not two. Why get upset when all else that arises including what seems from a 'self' viewpoint obnoxious is not.... it's just That. Everything is as it should be. A play of consciousness.

Thank you for your time and clear pointing.

:-)

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Andrei
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Re: To dissolve

Postby Andrei » Sun Jul 02, 2017 10:55 pm

No from DE I cannot choose a thought right now. A thought appears to call the process 'I am thinking' but in DE this is just a thought. I cannot tell you how a thought arises it just does from DE it appears to be automatic. From DE there does not seem to be any steps. Thoughts arise, there are gaps, thought arises, subsides.....From this line of understanding then an 'I' doing all these thoughts appears absent.
That's it!

In DE there is no watcher separate from the seen,,,,there is just seeing, with no watcher. Whether we use the words watching or seeing in DE there is no entity doing that. Again in DE there is just seeing.
So no "I" that experiences things in any situations? Stuff just happens?

Yes I get that....so simple. Thanks.....even now after all these years trying yo grok it...wow!
Haha it is simple isn't it?

And the story of an 'I' losing that recognition there is just awareness now seems ludicrous
Good you brought that up. Whether there is such a thing as awareness or there isn't (opinions are divided here but it doesn't really matter) is there any lingering "sense of self" left or awareness just is independently?


How about choices? Have you ever chosen anything or things just happened and then a wild "I" thought appeared stealing the show?
(And I mean big ass decisions like career, family, apartment, etc.)

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Andrei
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Re: To dissolve

Postby Andrei » Sun Jul 02, 2017 11:02 pm

When the penny drops the penny drops.

No self, no chooser, things just arise, all that arises is awareness, as awareness....not two. Why get upset when all else that arises including what seems from a 'self' viewpoint obnoxious is not.... it's just That. Everything is as it should be. A play of consciousness.
That sounds great!
If you like we have a few extra resources available for members who have seen through the illusion of the self, including a few facebook groups for aftercare or further inquiry.
If that sounds interesting let me know and I'll ask you a few more questions

Thank you for your time and clear pointing.
I'm glad I could help! It's nice seeing people dispelling the illusion :)

SG108
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Joined: Sat Jul 01, 2017 2:50 pm

Re: To dissolve

Postby SG108 » Sun Jul 02, 2017 11:29 pm

Yes an inherent self is an illusion and any one reading this thread just know when 'you' fall off the edge that's it!!!.....There is no coming back to a 'self' idea.

And to answer Andrei .....even the big decisions were never made by a 'self'.....they just happened.

Great service LU is providing here especially to those of us who are not in able to see folk physically who have seen through the illusion of a self....this is a cyber satsang.....and it works!

Thanks again Andrei.

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Andrei
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Re: To dissolve

Postby Andrei » Mon Jul 03, 2017 6:22 am

Ok just like I told you in PM, here are the questions. They are pretty custom so some things might repeat themselves. Take as much time as you need and if you yourself have any questions, don't hesitate to ask :)

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
6) Anything to add?

SG108
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Re: To dissolve

Postby SG108 » Mon Jul 03, 2017 7:42 am

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
There is no separate entity 'self', 'me', 'I' at all anywhere in any shape or form. There never was one.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
The illusion of the separate self is a seemingly persistent stream of thoughts that is based around an 'I', or 'me' thought, that is thought to be separate from the world and other people. This false 'I' thought/belief generates a looping set of behaviors that either wants to push an experience away or pull an experience towards it. This false 'I' believes happiness can come from controlling a situation, relationship or set of thoughts. It is strongly triggered by events or people this false 'I' considers beneficial or detrimental and memories of past events of good or bad outcome....memories are just another thought and do not in my experience relate to a past they are just present ocuring approximations so are not to be believed.

[quote3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.][/quote]

To see that all along 'my' thoughts have not been 'my' thoughts is a big relief (bodily there is a great lessening of tension) all it is i.e. the identification with a separate self is an innocent mistake or hypnotism learned and perpetuated from apparent 'others' e.g. parents, relatives, friends, foes, teachers employers etc who believe they are separate selves and the false self who buys into this.

The difference now after this dialogue it's seen there never was a separate 'self' from the totality of life. That thoughts arise in a conditioned body/mind that was conditioned to believe in a separate self and they are 'my' thoughts when in fact they are impersonal thoughts that just arise with no 'I' attached to them now. Since last night when' the penny dropped' so to speak thoughts have tried to re-create a false 'I' but this is quickly seen through as there is no 'I'. In away this false re-creation is fuel for the fire to really see there is no separate 'self' and that an infinite non separate intelligence is working to nail the coffin lid on the false 'I' identification.
What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
Good question when Andrei wrote about focusing on the 'object' doing the watching; that is the false 'self', and the object being watched there is a separation created. Really the object watching is awareness itself and the object watched is as Andrei wrote 'awareness coming out to play'. That phrase for me dissolved the separate 'me'. And the mechanism that creates a false 'I'
Things happen and then interpretations pop up
The false 'I' is all about making up stories of reality....that are not true!
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
What makes things happen....well they just spontaneously arise, there's no doer to make a decision, have intention, free will etc. All that has ever happened has been a singular event. As a metaphor waves appear on the ocean and appear separate but they are still water and the ocean. People and the world appear separate and all doing their, its own thing when in reality it's an orchestrated whole event that is totally synchronistic....veiled to appear not so by a false 'I' i.d.

There is an infinite intelligence patterning this experience....awareness, consciousness, Being, God, etc and it works by its own volition or play, I am responsible for nothing as I appear as a body/mind form but am formless consciousness.

Ok I move my arm to raise the mug of tea to my mouth... is there an 'I' doing this? No there is the experience of thirst, and the arm raises the cup. What energizes this physical movement is consciousness appearing as energy or chi in my view and muscle and bone to do a task but no separate 'I' is doing this it's just experience with no middle 'man' in my case....could say 'woman' if it was my partner I was using as an example :-)

A lorry driver makes a move that nearly totals my car and kills me (read one of my earlier posts on this thread). There is no entity doing the driving of the lorry it's just the patterning of intelligent energy aka consciousness that is driving, being the lorry and being the road etc. It's like a movie where things appear real when in fact they are appearing on a white screen and the screen and the movie are inseparable.
6) Anything to add?
All of this is the magical, weird, wonderful, tragic, comic arising of consciousness/awareness where there are no separate 'selves' or things. You reading this who still believe you are separate are just a story simply and briefly existing around the false notion of a separate 'self' that never existed. Don't despair, even if you do or are doing everything and I mean every seeming thing is designed for your awakening to no self...lovers and mad lorry drivers included :-). Namaste.

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Andrei
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Re: To dissolve

Postby Andrei » Mon Jul 03, 2017 8:28 am

I have to say I like your clarity and your in-depth descriptions. There's one last thing I want to ask you. It's not a biggie but it might point to a hidden belief:
There is an infinite intelligence patterning this experience....awareness, consciousness, Being, God, etc and it works by its own volition or play
How do you know that? What if there's really nothing there and everything is random?
Just words and images popping up on a rusty tv screen somewhere at the end of the universe...
I'm not saying there is or there isn't but can one know either way? :)

SG108
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Re: To dissolve

Postby SG108 » Mon Jul 03, 2017 9:05 am

Very good point....I don't know if my statement you quote is true....If I'm honest I do not know, but I just get a hunch that if it is all random that randomness is ultimately benevolent; as seeing through the separate 'self' there is a somatic feeling of openness, joy on occasion, and relaxation and less suffering psychologically. Yet pain will still arise now and again as will any type of thought as it cannot be controlled.

However maybe it is all random and neutral on the benevolence and detrimental qualities; after all there's no form, birth, life with no pain and pain, then dissolution of form :-)

Really whatever I gable is a story isn't it and so are all the non dual and spiritual books I've read and absorbed and paraphrased their various doctrines....all stories.


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