seeing if I'm through or not (and whether it is relevant)

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vajesz
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seeing if I'm through or not (and whether it is relevant)

Postby vajesz » Sat Jun 17, 2017 3:22 pm

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
"No real, inherent self' means that the "self" - as in me/I, in this body, having lived 32 years so far, with xyz experiences, is an illusion I had never previously questioned. LU provides resources and a forum, with guides, to help people understand that and thereby "awaken", usually by asking questions that direct the "seeker" to realization.

What are you looking for at LU?
I would like to have a conversation which makes my understanding deeper and "full", helping me to fully realise this knowledge (by "realise" I mean "live it"). I do "get it", it is groundbreaking and has already started transforming my life (limitation of words - there is not much transforming). The Gateless Gatecrashers is very useful, and my wife has also just finished with a guide (and her name will turn blue soon :)), and of course we have been talking a lot about these in the past few days/weeks. All that helped, but what I "figured" and indeed what I'm actually feeling right now, as I am typing, that this typing, focused thinking and putting it down on paper/screen is a process that helps this realisation even more - a lot more than reading other's conversations. So I would like to "embark" on this process, well, for the sake of it.
A few days ago I would have phrased my "lack" to be not yet having reached a state of "constant present moment awareness", or even "extended present moment awareness" - I am recognising thoughts very often, and am often in a present state, but thoughts come back very quickly. Sometimes it feels like a struggle to "control" the stream of thoughts and "wake up" from them, to be fully here and now, with just the sensations and what is really here at the moment. But I would not set it as a "goal", having read and talked a lot I know that this is not the purpose, it is simply the realisation of no self, no more and no less, and everything comes/will come with it.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect that the conversation will make me "dive deep" as in focus attentively on the self (the lack of it), the present moment and the lack of past/future and make the distinction between the sense of "I am" and all the "stuff associated with "me"" a lot deeper. (Including the illusion that "I am doing this, I am writing these words, when I will stand up from here and go to bed" etc - that is revolutionary insight; I'm already grateful for the Gateless Gatecrashers book for this). I really do not expect to receive any new piece of information here and that is not the point. I expect the conversation to be a pleasant - well, transforming - experience.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I had always been interested in "spiritual stuff". In my pre-teen years I read a Silva Mind Control book and tried a few things from it (not with a lot of success :)). In my late teenage years I read a lot of philosophy books/literature, was "casually interested" in Buddhism and had a lot of negative thinking which was basically coming from an internal, deep dissatisfaction about the "usual perception/belief of world" which I also shared. Wrote a lot of poems, had a deep pain about the world - although I had a good life so it wasn't really justified. (Practically atheist mind-set in those times, although I've passively always believed in God.) During my early university years I joined a meditation and distant healing group - I still consider myself a member, although I am not involved in their work, but I still say their world-healing prayer most nights. Funny because I never had any "mind-blowing" experience from any of the Silva Mind Control or any meditation techniques, but that never bothered me; but I never focused on them too much either. The teachings from that group and their books brought upon the first strong "paradigm shift" in my life and I found a lot of the answers I had been looking for.
Probably the most spiritual experience was meeting the girl who is now my wife, during third year of university. We had loads of spiritual conversations from the beginning, and we had read dozens of books together (not actually together but you know what I mean) - usually she found them and shared with me but sometimes it was the other way around (e.g. those from the aforementioned distant healing group). Fast forward, sometime after our son was born we (by which I mean she) came across Eckhart Tolle's books and his teachings have been paramount in my/our "development"; leading us to recognising the "relevance" of the present moment and it has been a significant "feature" in our lives. (I am using very bad words here, apologies.) And, again a bit of fast-forward, here I am typing on the LU registration page, after having read Gateless Gatecrashers and "witnessing" (again a bad word) my wife go through this.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

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WesleySPK
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Re: seeing if I'm through or not (and whether it is relevant)

Postby WesleySPK » Thu Jun 29, 2017 6:20 am

Hello Vajesz,

My name is Wesley, welcome to LU! I'm a guide here and if it's alright with you I will be your guide. What a great read! You say you aren't good with words in one of your passages, but I found it to be very easy to follow. I also was very into Eckhart Tolle for some time. And how great your wife has been through LU as well, I can imagine there's plenty of fun conversations. For your information, I currently am in Pacific Time Zone.

Before starting, I'd like to go over a couple things:
-I recommend posting every day as this will help you along the way. But if you're unable, it's no problem we can make it work.
-For the duration of our dialogue, try and put all other teachings/books/videos aside; Like you said, we aren't here for new information, we're simply going to look in your experience for the answers.
-Think of this as a friendly chat, and please feel free to write elaborately and honestly, just write what's true for you in your experience. It often helps to sort of give a voice to that voice in the head to see where you may be stuck. At the same time, as you are likely already familiar with, I will ask you questions and you are to look in your Direct Experience for answers (what you see/hear/smell/taste/touch).

If this all sounds good so far, let's dive in!

What do you expect to happen by seeing through the illusion of a self? What do you imagine the "penny dropping" moment will be like? Will your life change, stay the same? Both? Will you stay in the present moment forever, or more often?

If I ask you to look for your car keys, how do you do that? Describe to me the process.

Looking forward to our chat,
Wesley
"See with your eyes, hear with your ears, nothing is hidden."-Zen Master Tenkei

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Re: seeing if I'm through or not (and whether it is relevant)

Postby vajesz » Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:37 am

Hello Wesley,
Nice to meet you and thanks for picking this up!
I am OK with the "terms and conditions". I may not be able to respond every day, apologies in advance, but I will do my very best. I won't use other books/videos/etc - haven't been reading/listening/etc anything anyway for a long while.

So I'll try to answer your first set of questions.
What do you expect to happen by seeing through the illusion of a self?
What do I expect to happen - two things. One is just what it is - just seeing through the illusion of a self. When I am "looking" and "present", I actually see that this "self" thing is not real and is imposed onto our thinking - that the only thing here is just the "I am", augmented by five (or more) senses, so "I am", but there is also hearing, there are sounds, touch, smells (not much smells - semantics aside, I have a bad nose :D) etc.
The second one is an expectation though. I do expect that a deep seeing through would come with a "surge" of deep and long-lasting presence. How long lasting, I don't know, and how deep, probably not worth trying to describe. As I said in the intro, present moments are temporary; switching in and out of thought-streams, like waves. I guess that will not change. However I think that in the "ordinary" - or let's call it un-enlightened - way of living life, the "baseline" is a thought-based living, disrupted by presence to a smaller or larger extent, while crossing the gate would change that to presence being the "baseline", disrupted by thought-streamed moments which only last "for a while" and presence settles back in.
(These are all just thoughts, yes.)
What do you imagine the "penny dropping" moment will be like?
A surge of presence, not just feeling that it's true, but to the extent which it is true. I have actually had a mini version of that a few weeks ago - when I realized how much it is true that past and future are non-existent, even though I had conceptually known that for years. And I've felt it with the "no I" too, sometimes when I "looked" - I knew I was on autopilot whenever I wasn't present, but I hadn't realized (before reading Gateless Gatecrashers) that the autopilot is on even when one IS present! (I.e. things, including "my actions", are just happening and they are being observed.) Fascinating thing.
So back to the question - something like that, just bigger.
Will your life change, stay the same? Both?
Ha! When you put it like that, both. But in terms of what life brings, it would be the same. The perception would change, as in perception of life changes when one is present.
Will you stay in the present moment forever, or more often?
Not forever, but more often, yes. (Aside some semantics here - we are always in here and now, but the deep "I am" consciously felt during presence is masked when one is "buried" within the thought stream, and thought streams would be less persistent.)
If I ask you to look for your car keys, how do you do that? Describe to me the process.
Heh let me answer it two ways. The usual game of semantics but I'll get to the meaning afterwards.
(1) So I know where my car keys are - on the X furniture item. I get up, walk through some rooms of the house, and take it into my hands. If they're not there, I start thinking about where I put them last, imagining past events and possible situations which could lead to the keys being elsewhere - in the meantime, searching through the house.
(2) A thought arises, about where the car keys should be. The body gets up, feeling of steps, seeing the content of the rooms while walking by. Seeing the car keys, feeling them as they're taken into the hand. If they are not there, further thoughts arise, followed by body movements (that are felt), going to different rooms and seeing what is there.

Not perfect descriptions (e.g. I'll probably ask my wife too etc), and it may actually not be answering your original question. The reason I wrote this down however is to illustrate the difference between how it is usually perceived (the first) and how it is "sometimes" perceived (the second) when done through presence; linking back to one of your previous question (and I would expect the second one to naturally happen a lot more often, after gate-crossing).

Sorry if it's very far off, but I guess you'll just ask in a different way if I missed the point.

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Re: seeing if I'm through or not (and whether it is relevant)

Postby WesleySPK » Fri Jun 30, 2017 6:57 pm

Hi Vajesz,

By the way, would you like me to continue calling you Vajesz or by another name?
What do I expect to happen - two things. One is just what it is - just seeing through the illusion of a self. When I am "looking" and "present", I actually see that this "self" thing is not real and is imposed onto our thinking - that the only thing here is just the "I am", augmented by five (or more) senses
Are you the "I Am"?
A surge of presence, not just feeling that it's true, but to the extent which it is true. I have actually had a mini version of that a few weeks ago - when I realized how much it is true that past and future are non-existent, even though I had conceptually known that for years.
Ahh yes, past and future. We can touch on these a little later, as well as some expectations. The reason the expectations (as I see it) are important, is because the truth is staring you in the face right now, yet sometimes we hold onto our expectations that xy or z should happen, before letting ourselves "rest" so to speak. Anyways, I'd like to keep it simple for now and take it one thing at a time - thank you for sharing ;).

Your descriptions of looking for the car keys are great, thank you! And I see why you wrote two different descriptions, during this inquiry you may find yourself having more of those moments like the second description.

For now, can you agree that to actually find your car keys, the real ones, you have to look for them? You cannot simply think about them, even if you KNOW they exist(ed) somewhere? This is not proof of the real keys, right?

Before going ahead, please note any thoughts, feelings, emotions, fears, happiness, freedom, anxiety, sensations, anything that comes up in response to this sentences:

There is no me/I/self/person in the center of your experience. There isn't a manager/controller/watcher/witness inside the body somewhere that's controlling/responsible for this piece of life. There's just life flowing and happening, with no separate self in the middle of it.

By the way, I forgot to add this: this is how to use the quote function:http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

P.s. no worries about responding everyday, just do what you can and we'll make it work!

Looking forward to your answers,
Wesley
"See with your eyes, hear with your ears, nothing is hidden."-Zen Master Tenkei

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Re: seeing if I'm through or not (and whether it is relevant)

Postby vajesz » Sat Jul 01, 2017 12:26 am

Hi Wesley, I'll respond tomorrow, sorry for the delay. Very late here.

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Re: seeing if I'm through or not (and whether it is relevant)

Postby WesleySPK » Sat Jul 01, 2017 5:10 am

Hi Vajesz,

No worries! Looking forward to it.

Wesley
"See with your eyes, hear with your ears, nothing is hidden."-Zen Master Tenkei

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Re: seeing if I'm through or not (and whether it is relevant)

Postby vajesz » Sat Jul 01, 2017 2:34 pm

Hi Wesley,

Thank you for your patience. I'm in GMT timezone by the way, but it might actually be making things easier rather than harder.
My first name is Balazs, but I guess it's only a marginally easier name to write or pronounce, if at all :) Vajesz was my teenage nickname, derived from my last name. You can call me whichever, I really don't mind either way. (I live abroad so I'm getting all kinds of permutations anyway.)
Are you the "I Am"?
No - but it would be hard to describe what it is. I could have equally said "it is", or "the world is" - or perhaps just "is". "I am" is the realization of existence, in the moment. Not personal. Looking around (and/or hearing, touching etc) - "THIS ALL IS".
... during this inquiry you may find yourself having more of those moments like the second description.
Yes, it is already happening, having these conversations "invokes more presence", so to speak.
For now, can you agree that to actually find your car keys, the real ones, you have to look for them? You cannot simply think about them, even if you KNOW they exist(ed) somewhere? This is not proof of the real keys, right?
Yes, I agree completely - the keys are only concepts until they appear in the field of vision (or other senses). Interesting how this is so overlooked, but it actually makes sense. Best example is when they are lost - the mind (a "mental video") puts them in all sorts of different places. Sometimes the "mental videos" are helpful and reveal where the keys actually are, sometimes they are not.
Before going ahead, please note any thoughts, feelings, emotions, fears, happiness, freedom, anxiety, sensations, anything that comes up in response to this sentences:
There is no me/I/self/person in the center of your experience. There isn't a manager/controller/watcher/witness inside the body somewhere that's controlling/responsible for this piece of life. There's just life flowing and happening, with no separate self in the middle of it.
Thought: it is true - the sensations are so vivid and complex, that we fall for it and think that there is an "I" moving things. E.g. "I want to lift up my arm". The body moves the arm, but just before that, the intent is felt (in the head and then in the muscles) that now the arm should be lifted. It is a "complete experience" so I could think that I actually moved my arm. Very tricky and obviously couldn't convince just about anyone - even this forum shows a good few struggles, at least here people are actively making an effort to look beyond it.
Feeling: a tiny little bit scary - associated thought: whatever I had been told, the way I had lived my life, the way so many people I know still live their lives (as far as I can tell) was/is based on a big, false, commonly approved belief.
Other feeling: freedom - associated thought: there is nothing to worry about. Life flows, life is, things happen. I'm out of words a little bit, I'd like to write something but after several cycles of typing and deleting I'm just leaving it. Sorry.
It's not a big "ahha" bang or anything, and wasn't when I first felt it either, but there is a warm, comforting feeling about it.

I've been giving it a lot of thought (some of the thought streams :)) the past couple of weeks and I've looked at it from a dozen different angles (by it I mean essentially your statements above - the greatest gift from Gateless Gatecrashers). I'll omit them for now, otherwise I'd spend the whole afternoon writing - but they would all be the same thing.
By the way, I forgot to add this: this is how to use the quote function:http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660
Thanks - I think I got it and I used them OK already in my first reply (let me know if I didn't)... The link is broken, but it doesn't matter.

Many thanks, looking forward to hearing from you. Have a nice weekend!

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Re: seeing if I'm through or not (and whether it is relevant)

Postby WesleySPK » Sun Jul 02, 2017 4:40 am

I will call you Balazs if that's okay :). Where is that name from? I'm curious how to pronounce it.
No - but it would be hard to describe what it is. I could have equally said "it is", or "the world is" - or perhaps just "is". "I am" is the realization of existence, in the moment. Not personal. Looking around (and/or hearing, touching etc) - "THIS ALL IS".
Ah okay I see what you mean. I don't think we need to look here for now than.
Sometimes the "mental videos" are helpful and reveal where the keys actually are, sometimes they are not.
Exactly. So, you can think of the keys as a mental image, or perhaps a word, and you can also go pick up your keys and feel them, see them, hear them, lick them if you wanted ;). How about with "me"? (or insert any word you like for "self").

Let's try an exercise: Pick an object around you and describe it to me as vividly as possible, but without telling me what it is. Whatever it is, allow yourself to really look at it, feel it, and notice what's the raw sensory information and what is interpretation added by thoughts. After you've done this and written it out, do the same exercise with "me". What is the raw sensory information of "me"? What's added by thought?

Okay so it sounds like there is no crippling or overwhelming fear/resistance to the sentence given, is this right? If it is, than let's continue to look closely at what me is made of, how it works, what it can do, etc. If, however, you'd like to address any fear or resistance, we can certainly do that too. The exercise I gave you above should be enough for now.
Thanks - I think I got it and I used them OK already in my first reply (let me know if I didn't)... The link is broken, but it doesn't matter.
Woops, yes you clearly got the quote function down, good.

Hug, and a nice weekend to you too thanks
Wesley
"See with your eyes, hear with your ears, nothing is hidden."-Zen Master Tenkei

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Re: seeing if I'm through or not (and whether it is relevant)

Postby WesleySPK » Sun Jul 02, 2017 5:43 pm

Hi Balasz,

Just giving you a heads up, I am going on a trip from Monday (my time) to Thursday and will likely be without internet for much of it. I'll reply when I can.

Thanks,
Wesley
"See with your eyes, hear with your ears, nothing is hidden."-Zen Master Tenkei

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Re: seeing if I'm through or not (and whether it is relevant)

Postby vajesz » Sun Jul 02, 2017 11:54 pm

Hi Wesley,

I think that will work out very well. In fact, I will use those three days to look at it properly - I won't be able to send you a proper reply now.
Enjoy your trip - you'll see my reply when you're back. (Maybe it will be there if/when you look in the interim - but I absolutely don't expect you to reply while you're on your trip.)
I'll have travel coming up too, in fact on Friday, but I will have internet, we can progress it to some extent at least, the thread won't run cold.

Thanks, all the best
Balazs

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Re: seeing if I'm through or not (and whether it is relevant)

Postby WesleySPK » Mon Jul 03, 2017 3:56 am

Hi balazs,

Great! Have fun with it, many of these exercises can be very enjoyable. A minute or less here and there is enough. Look closely at an object -notice the sights, sounds, smells - then as if playing hide and seek, look for the self. If all you find is a thought of one, perhaps ask "is a thought of a self, a real self?/a thought of me a real me?"

Have fun,
Wesley
"See with your eyes, hear with your ears, nothing is hidden."-Zen Master Tenkei

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Re: seeing if I'm through or not (and whether it is relevant)

Postby vajesz » Thu Jul 06, 2017 12:24 am

Hi Wesley,

I hope your trip was good! Now let me try the exercises here.
Exactly. So, you can think of the keys as a mental image, or perhaps a word, and you can also go pick up your keys and feel them, see them, hear them, lick them if you wanted ;). How about with "me"? (or insert any word you like for "self").
Haven't occurred to me since early childhood, but you're right, I could lick them :) So on "me", yes one would be inclined to say of course I can see my hands, hear my voice, lick my skin (you started it :)), but actually it is just seeing a pair of very familiar hands, hearing a very familiar voice, licking skin (OK that's the last one now!) that also feels the lick. (I actually have a question on this which I might return to later.)
Let's try an exercise: Pick an object around you and describe it to me as vividly as possible, but without telling me what it is. Whatever it is, allow yourself to really look at it, feel it, and notice what's the raw sensory information and what is interpretation added by thoughts. After you've done this and written it out, do the same exercise with "me". What is the raw sensory information of "me"? What's added by thought?
OK. So I see a black, rectangular object. It fits in my palm. It has a leathery touch, hands feel a tiny little bit colder when I hold it than when I put it down. There is a flap, I open it. Inside still black, but extremely smooth to touch. There is a circle shaped thing with slightly different texture on it, I press it (feel the pressure on my thumb); the inside black suddenly glows in light, I see a picture (my son's picture).
So I'm sure you know what the above is. There were thoughts when I was feeling/seeing etc (not licking :)) the above. Even the descriptions are intertwined with thoughts - "leathery" touch, "rectangular" shape - they are perceptions, but no way (or very hard) to describe them without thoughts. I also described a button there and there was a thought saying that it's a button (and further thoughts on the misery of trying to describe them without saying it is a button). A thought that the illuminated picture is my son's picture. Another thought that this object can give a sound, although right now it doesn't give any - the current sensory experiences do not imply that it could. Just there are thoughts saying that yes this can give a sound.
Just a side note, I was originally going to describe a dog leash, even got it with me, but vocabulary failed me on that one and I gave up :)

So now, back to "me". So all I can sense about "me" is seeing some of "my" body parts, two hands, two legs etc, hear a voice. I can feel the touch when the hand touches something (e.g. as I am typing). But these are merely body parts; of course they "feel" familiar and thoughts associate them to "me" as they are the two hands that I've seen by far the most in my life, and because when I see those hands contacting something, a touch feeling arises too.
"Me" is just a concept. Like "red" is just a concept. I cannot touch "red" or "redness" in general. I can see an object which I can call "red", if the colour matches what I think is "red". Same with "me". It is a concept that can be used in conversations to refer to happenings to this body and a set of feeling and thought patterns. But we use that concept much-much more than that, and think it is real, and we "buy" into it.
So yeah I cannot experience "me" perception-wise. I can experience feelings, physical ones and more subtle ones (emotions), there are thoughts. But not "me".

Okay so it sounds like there is no crippling or overwhelming fear/resistance to the sentence given, is this right?
Very right, no concerns here.

All the best,
Balazs

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Re: seeing if I'm through or not (and whether it is relevant)

Postby WesleySPK » Fri Jul 07, 2017 10:40 pm

Hi Balazs,

Very nice to read your writing today. Thank you, Alaska is quite amazing! Daylight until 1:30 am...Anyways, I'm back now and can reply normally.
Haven't occurred to me since early childhood, but you're right, I could lick them :) So on "me", yes one would be inclined to say of course I can see my hands, hear my voice, lick my skin (you started it :)), but actually it is just seeing a pair of very familiar hands, hearing a very familiar voice, licking skin (OK that's the last one now!) that also feels the lick. (I actually have a question on this which I might return to later.)
Lick away, I won't judge ;). Sure, we can come back to it later. Right, a pair of familiar hands, voice, skin, but no real "me" found yet. We'll look more into the body later too.

I know it can be difficult to write about the exercise, some people say that the closest thing to describing 'what you are seeing' is simply varying shapes and light patterns. I don't think it matters very much how you describe it, the important thing is that you recognize what is there, and what thought says is there - and this can get ever so subtle. Often when looking at objects in this way, without the thought-clothing, they will appear as fresh, alive, maybe even peaceful. Once you see how thoughts label things, and in some cases invent things, the self illusion can't fool you as it once did.
"Me" is just a concept. Like "red" is just a concept. I cannot touch "red" or "redness" in general. I can see an object which I can call "red", if the colour matches what I think is "red". Same with "me". It is a concept that can be used in conversations to refer to happenings to this body and a set of feeling and thought patterns.
Well seen! This brings us to the next set of questions:

-What can a thought/concept do? (I will use thought/concept interchangeably here)
-Can a thought control the body?
-Can a concept think thoughts?
-Can a thought decide?

Looking forward to your answers,
Wesley
"See with your eyes, hear with your ears, nothing is hidden."-Zen Master Tenkei

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Re: seeing if I'm through or not (and whether it is relevant)

Postby vajesz » Sat Jul 08, 2017 8:36 pm

Hi Wesley,

Nice to hear from you; I'm glad your trip went well! (You didn't specifically say so, but it surely did - and there is no good or bad anyway!)
I'm also abroad now so might be only able to respond later, tomorrow or the day after, sorry.

All the best
Balazs

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Re: seeing if I'm through or not (and whether it is relevant)

Postby WesleySPK » Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:27 am

Hi Balazs,

No problem, I suggest while you are unable to respond to do some of the exercises here and there to keep the momentum going. It can be easy to get distracted in this inquiry.

Hug,
Wesley
"See with your eyes, hear with your ears, nothing is hidden."-Zen Master Tenkei


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