Page 1 of 2

Living Gateless

Posted: Sat May 13, 2017 8:39 am
by nogate54
LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand this to mean there is no separate "Sue" from the rest of Life. Life flows. Life is. "Sue" is part of this flow along with other parts of Life appearing as other forms, humans, animals, sun, plants, rocks. All these parts interact with each other in this flow.

What are you looking for at LU?
Another viewpoint from someone familiar with releasing Self and beliefs. It feels like I am done seeing and releasing my beliefs. Someone else may see something I am denying or have not yet looked at that I am blind to. Looking for help finishing the release.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
The identification of parts of self or beliefs I cannot see. I expect to finish releasing my beliefs and see life clearly, just as it is. Just as it flows. I need help with my thoughts. They come and go, and I watch them. But I also bring thoughts to mind when I focus on a task to do or a problem to solve. So are thoughts like breathing? They can be controlled, and they can be on automatic pilot? When I control the thoughts to focus on a task being performed, Life is flowing through and doing the task.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Life has looked "weird" to me for as long as I can remember, making no sense most of the time as I would watch adults interact with each other and with the problems arising in life. I ask questions of everything, and most people do not. I sought answers through several religions when I was younger and found none. I have been reading books and searching for truth all my life. A few years ago, I came across the books by Jed McKenna, and a light went on. They pointed at something, and everything started making sense. No Self. Only Awareness. While reading his books, I experienced a very soft, subtle "click" sound/feeling with the word "done" flowing through me. Seeking stopped. Peace stayed. The flow of my life continued as it always has, but there was an underlying sense of peace and connection with everything and everyone.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?: 10

Re: Living Gateless

Posted: Sat May 27, 2017 2:49 pm
by Petrus
Hi Sue,

I will be happy to guide you.
The main thing we do here is pointing to Direct Experience, so we are going to look at what IS.
The guiding will help you to see through the illusion of a separate self.
Actually that is pretty much it. Is that what you are seeking?

Here are some groundrules:
1. Write from experience, not speculation.
2. Be 100% honest. So a wrong honest answer is better than a good answer you lied about.
3. Post regularly.
4. Put aside all other teachings (satsangs!), philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation.
5. Read the disclaimer on the Liberation Unleashed main site ->http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/
6. Could you learn the quote function? http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

If you confirm you have read the above we can start.

It is important to be aware of your expectations about liberation.
Many people expect miracles: no more problems, constant bliss, a better life, etc.
What are your expectations for seeing through the illusion of the separate self?

Regards, Petrus

Re: Living Gateless

Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 1:48 pm
by nogate54
Hi Petrus,
Thank you for contacting me. I read the disclaimer and how to do the quote function.
What are your expectations for seeing through the illusion of the separate self?
My expectations........ I have noticed the separate self for many years. Often when interacting with others in conversation, I think I know what i am going to say, I open my mouth, and different words come out with different conclusions and thoughts about the topic than I had planned to say. The first time this happened, it startled me. Who is talking? What is going on? It happens daily now. The "I" of Susan is different from this presence that moves with Susan through her life. I use the term "I" as a conversation marker with us, Petrus. There is no "I", there is only flowing awareness.

So it seems to me I am seeing through the illusion of the separate self. I see people as there but not there, Real enough to touch and talk to, like Susan is, but acting as actors on a stage play. I flow with them, experiencing, watching, interacting.

My question for you is: Is this what Liberation Unleashed is pointing to?
Regards,
Sue

Re: Living Gateless

Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 2:22 pm
by Petrus
Hi Sue,

Sorry for the long time you had to wait for a guide. Many people waiting at the Gate haha.
It seems from your first post, you did a lot of work already...
Is this what Liberation Unleashed is pointing to?
I am not sure what you exactly mean by "this", in this sentence.
In general LU points to Direct Experience, so what IS.
(http://liberationunleashed.com/resource ... xperience/)
We do this by asking questions and you looking into them.

But I am not LU of course. I focus on looking at thoughts and to the body in the beginning.
And after that I just follow what I think is needed.

So, you like me to be your guide (because you did not answer that question yet I think)?
If so, we can start..

Regards, Petrus.

Re: Living Gateless

Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 2:45 pm
by Petrus
Hi Sue,

Additional question:
So it seems to me I am seeing through the illusion of the separate self.
But in a way it looks like if you gave some reality not to "I", but to "Susan" and the "other actors".
Or did I misinterpreted here?

(Sorry for my English. Now and then I think it must sound funny. I'm Dutch and doing the best I can)

Regards, Petrus

Re: Living Gateless

Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 3:24 pm
by nogate54
Hi Petrus,
Yes, I would like you to be my guide. I must have missed that question in your email.

The "this" I am speaking about is what LU is pointing to, and you answered that -- the pointing is to direct experience.
But in a way it looks like if you gave some reality not to "I", but to "Susan" and the "other actors".
This is where words start getting in the way. I give reality to Susan and the other actors as they exist in the direct experience. I do not give them permanence, as if they were real or true.

In a way, it is the same reality I give to direct experience. To have direct experience, there must be someone doing the experiencing. This subtly implies there is a someone who exists in order to have the direct experience. And it implies a someone who is doing the pointing. So now we have 2 persons doing things, a pointer and a direct experiencer.

The "I" I refer to is awareness experiencing life through Susan.

By the way, your English is quite good Petrus. I appreciate you working with me.
Sue

Re: Living Gateless

Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 4:50 pm
by Petrus
Hi Sue,

I am on the road now, train to be precise.
Answering with my telephone
I am always thrilled to have a new thread: it always looks different, but in the end all is the same.

"To have direct experience, there must be someone doing the experiencing."
(Sorry my quote function is not working on my phone)
No, this is not true.
Try and look for an experiencer while listening music. Maybe this is the thing you overlooked?

More later...
Regards Petrus

Re: Living Gateless

Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 9:22 pm
by nogate54
Hi Petrus,
Try and look for an experiencer while listening music. Maybe this is the thing you overlooked?

There is no experiencer while listening to music. When I listen to music, my mind stops and there is just a flowing feeling. Depending on the music, at time my body wants to move with the beat of the music. I hear the music, is the expression I use, but there is no I. Music just is.

Regards,
Sue

Re: Living Gateless

Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 12:31 am
by Petrus
Is there a experiencer while eating?
While having sex?

Is there a experiencer while thinking?

Regards Petrus

Re: Living Gateless

Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 2:32 am
by nogate54
Hi Petrus,
Is there a experiencer while eating?
While having sex?

Is there a experiencer while thinking?
When I look behind, there is no person eating, thinking, or having sex. No experiencer. I find just emptiness, nothing. There is the experience of eating, but no person is there when I look. There is no experiencer during sex or thinking. Thoughts come and go on their own. I can ponder a topic, and my thoughts will revolve around the topic. Otherwise, thoughts arrive by themselves. There is no experiencer while thinking.

Re: Living Gateless

Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 3:34 pm
by Petrus
Hi Sue,

You changed from :
"To have direct experience, there must be someone doing the experiencing." to "There is no experiencer while thinking."?
So you got it now? Experiences are experienced, but not by Sue, not by a separate something!

Ok, here is my set with questions about thinking now.
Can you answer all of them ?

Where do thoughts come from?
Where are they going?
Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?

Can an 'I' be found that generates thoughts?
Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?
Could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?

Is there an 'I' that controls thoughts?
Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?
Can you choose what to think?
Can you choose what not to think?
Is it the brain that is thinking the thoughts?

Do you think thoughts or do thoughts think you?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
Is it possible to prevent the thought "I" from appearing?


Warm Regards, Petrus

Re: Living Gateless

Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 4:41 pm
by nogate54
Hi Petrus,

Your questions are deep and challenging. They are so very helpful in revealing underlying, almost subconscious, beliefs I still cling to. Wonderful working.
You changed from :
"To have direct experience, there must be someone doing the experiencing." to "There is no experiencer while thinking."?
So you got it now? Experiences are experienced, but not by Sue, not by a separate something!
Yes, I get my confusion with the above thought. With your comments and questions, I saw that I connected experience/experiencer as one unit, something that had to be together. After pondering your last comments, I watched more deeply looking for an experiencer, and there was none. No separate person. No separate self. Just a vast deep empty void.

Now, let's get into your set with questions about thinking now.
Where do thoughts come from?
Where are they going?
Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?
Thoughts arrive. Like a radio playing in my head on a variety station that has news, history, commentary, music. I can choose to think about something, like I would like another cup of coffee so I must get up and go make the coffee, and my thoughts will include coffee-related things like bring your cup with you, get the water, where are the coffee filters, get the coffee grounds. But if I do not focus on a topic, the radio station just continues with thoughts. As I pause and look at these thoughts, looking for where they come from, they come in a flow, like a stream passing through, often from my right side, through my head, out the left side is my experience. Sometimes, thoughts are like bubbles coming up from a lake bottom to burst on the surface. Looking behind the flow or behind the lake, there is nothing. No one. No self. No person. The empty void is there, deep and vast. I can "stop" a thought in the middle, like when I interject to make more coffee, but it is more like an interruption as this does not "stop" the thoughts arriving, flowing through, or leaving. I have experienced thoughts stopping when I take a deep breath and meditate. All thoughts stop, and I experience the vast empty void.
Can an 'I' be found that generates thoughts?
Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?
Could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?
I cannot find an "I" that generates thoughts. I cannot locate where the thoughts come from, unless they come from the vast empty void, as that is all I find when I look for where thoughts come from. There is no thinker of the thought, so there is no one to appear in the experience. Yes, I agree that the "I" that thinks is also just a thought, because there is no I to be found when I look. Therefore, the "I" must also be a thought.
Is there an 'I' that controls thoughts?
Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?
Can you choose what to think?
Can you choose what not to think?
Is it the brain that is thinking the thoughts?
Very good questions here. Deep questions to ponder. I ignore some thoughts that I find troubling, but that does not make the thoughts go away. Sometimes, it makes the thoughts change to another topic. But if they stay on the same topic I find troubling, I can change my experience, and the thoughts will change, like maybe change what I am doing physically, get up and go wash dishes or start dinner. I can influence my experience with thoughts. I would not say I can control my thoughts as that would indicate I can make them do what I want any time I want, and that is not true. At times, some thoughts will not go away, and if I resist them or try to get them to leave, they get louder and more persistent. I can choose a topic to think, and sometimes my thoughts will stay with the new topic. Sometimes they change to the new topic, but then revert back to the previous topic if I do not continue focus on the new topic.

The brain is the physical neural tissue inside the bony skull that manages physical processes throughout the body with chemical changes through nerve tissue. "Is it the brain that is thinking the thoughts?" No, the brain does not think, in my experience. The brain functions but does not create thoughts. My culture often says the mind lives in the brain, but medical testing and imaging studies have not found that to be correct understanding. The mind does not live in the physical brain, and the mind does not create thoughts. My experience has been that when I am trying to solve a problem, I think about it, I ponder it. But I do not solve it. There is a pause in my pondering, a space of some kind that waits a little bit of time, then the answer arrives to me. It comes to me --- I did not figure this out. I have looked to see where the answer comes from, and the vast empty void is what I find.
Do you think thoughts or do thoughts think you?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
Is it possible to prevent the thought "I" from appearing?
"Do I think thoughts, or do thoughts think me?" I do not think thoughts, so the thoughts think me. This idea goes together with the vast empty void that I find when investigating where thoughts come from. The void is thinking me. On investigating this void, it seems to me it is Awareness that contains everything, creates everything, thinks everyone. Nothing is outside of it, as it creates everything so it contains everything.

It is not possible to prevent a thought from appearing as they appear on their own.

"Is it possible to prevent the thought "I" from appearing?" Hmmm........ Yes, it is possible to prevent it. I use the term "I" in my conversation with you as a way for conversation and concepts to be shared and understood. But, there is no "I". That would imply a separate self, and I cannot find a separate self when I look for one. No experiencer. No "I".

Your questions today made me look much deeper than I had done in the past, and I very much appreciate our work together.
Warm Regards, Sue

Re: Living Gateless

Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 9:16 pm
by Petrus
Hi Sue,
I can choose to think about something
How? Who or what is doing that?
But if I do not focus on a topic
Is there really some unit that can make a focus?
Think about a pink elephant now!
If you did, who made this focus?
I can "stop" a thought in the middle, like when I interject to make more coffee, but it is more like an interruption as this does not "stop" the thoughts arriving
There is stopping, but is an "I"doing this?
I have experienced thoughts stopping when I take a deep breath and meditate.
Who/what decides to take a deep breath?
Yes, I agree that the "I" that thinks is also just a thought, because there is no I to be found when I look. Therefore, the "I" must also be a thought.
This is logic. Can you also see that "I" is a thought?
There is a hungry feeling. It is "I" that posess that feeling. I am hungry.
Thinking many times is a subtitling machine.
The "I" thought only arises once in a while. If you can let it be, thereis no problem...
I ignore some thoughts that I find troubling
How? Who/what is doing that?
But if they stay on the same topic I find troubling, I can change my experience, and the thoughts will change, like maybe change what I am doing physically, get up and go wash dishes or start dinner.
Who or what is deciding that?
I can choose a topic to think
Something comes into your mind. Is that choosing?
then the answer arrives to me. It comes to me --- I did not figure this out.
How is that possible? Is there an I that can figure this out if he/she wants to?
"Is it possible to prevent the thought "I" from appearing?" Hmmm........ Yes, it is possible to prevent it.
Tellme how. I would like to prevent it, haha. And you can do it: tell me!
Your questions today made me look much deeper than I had done in the past, and I very much appreciate our work together.
Thank you Sue,
Petrus

Re: Living Gateless

Posted: Tue May 30, 2017 2:55 am
by nogate54
Hi Petrus,
You are very good at finding the places where "I" still lingers. I need this pointed out to me, thank you.
I can choose to think about something
How? Who or what is doing that?
It feels like there is a part of me that is making the decision to think about something, like deciding it is time to ponder what to prepare for dinner. But your question is good --- How? Who or what is doing that? It is not me. It is not me doing the thinking or pondering. The thought arrives to ponder dinner preparation, but I did not think it. There is no "I".
But if I do not focus on a topic
Is there really some unit that can make a focus?
Think about a pink elephant now!
If you did, who made this focus?
There is no "I" and there is no unit to focus on a topic. Like any other thoughts, a focus arrives on its own. I did not see this before now. Wow. None of this is my creation. Thoughts come and go without me doing anything. There isn't anything to do, anyway, and no one to do it.

When you mentioned a pink elephant, the image came to mind as I read the words. It arrived with reading the words. I did not create it. It came and it left. I am not creating thoughts.
I can "stop" a thought in the middle, like when I interject to make more coffee, but it is more like an interruption as this does not "stop" the thoughts arriving
There is stopping, but is an "I"doing this?
The stopping happens --- just like thoughts happen --- without an "I" doing this.
I have experienced thoughts stopping when I take a deep breath and meditate.
Who/what decides to take a deep breath?
The deep breath just happens. I thought I did it. But here again, the deep breath just happens, or doesn't happen. Like thoughts happen, or they do not happen. I do not create them or control them.
Yes, I agree that the "I" that thinks is also just a thought, because there is no I to be found when I look. Therefore, the "I" must also be a thought.
This is logic. Can you also see that "I" is a thought?
There is a hungry feeling. It is "I" that possesses that feeling. I am hungry.
Thinking many times is a subtitling machine.
The "I" thought only arises once in a while. If you can let it be, there is no problem...
Yes, thinking often is a subtitling machine, labeling everything. When "I" arises, I leave it alone. Yes, "I" is a thought, and as a thought, it arises on its own and leaves on its own. I use the term "I" when talking or writing in order to convey concepts and communicate. But in truth, there is no "I", no separate self.
I ignore some thoughts that I find troubling
How? Who/what is doing that?
I notice the thoughts. If they are troubling, I notice something else. This is how my experience is. But who or what is doing the noticing? Hmmm........... Noticing is also a thought. So, no one is noticing as thoughts arrive and go on their own.
But if they stay on the same topic I find troubling, I can change my experience, and the thoughts will change, like maybe change what I am doing physically, get up and go wash dishes or start dinner.
Who or what is deciding that?
It feels like I am making these decisions, changing my experience, noticing different thoughts. But, this is only experience with no doer behind them. When I ask who or what is deciding this, I look behind all of it. I find the vase empty void there.
I can choose a topic to think
Something comes into your mind. Is that choosing?
Thoughts arrive in my mind. That cannot be choosing, as I did not choose the thoughts to arrive. What I have understood to be choosing topics to ponder in my mind has not been me at all, or a choice at all. It was thoughts arriving for the experiencer to experience. Wow.
then the answer arrives to me. It comes to me --- I did not figure this out.
How is that possible? Is there an I that can figure this out if he/she wants to?
I am describing here a flow I have noticed of information coming to me when I am figuring out a problem. So let's look at this from the perspective of our conversation here. There is no "I", so there is no one who can figure out a problem. Now I see that both the problem and the solution are thoughts that arrive.
"Is it possible to prevent the thought "I" from appearing?" Hmmm........ Yes, it is possible to prevent it.
Tell me how. I would like to prevent it, haha. And you can do it: tell me!
What I meant here was connected to comments above about noticing when "I" appears. When "I" appears, I turn my noticing other places. So really, I did not prevent it from arriving. The answer above should be no, it is not possible to prevent it, because "I" is a thought, and thoughts come and go by themselves. You are right --- If I had the process to prevent it, I would gladly share it with you, lol.
Your questions today made me look much deeper than I had done in the past, and I very much appreciate our work together.
Thank you Sue,
Most welcome

Kind regards,
Sue

Re: Living Gateless

Posted: Tue May 30, 2017 9:43 am
by Petrus
Hi Sue,

You are doing fine !!
I did not see this before now. Wow
Just some looking better is doing the job!

I have an exercise for you now:
With the eyes closed, sitting still, notice the other sensations: hearing, smelling, tasting, touching. With only the input from those four senses, and without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or a volume?
Is there a boundary between the body and the ground?
Can you feel where the body ends?

Do you have control over this body?
Can you locate a mind?

Can you feel your ears?
Does the body hear? Or is there hearing?

In direct experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Is there an inside or outside?
What does the body consist of in direct experience?
Are you this body?


Warmest regards, Petrus