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Out of confusion and see the Truth

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:57 am
by BoH
LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
"Self" refers as often as "I", "me" and "mine" which is not true essences of our nature. The True essences would not experience separation with Divine universe, nor separation with anyone else. Most of time, 'self' we think who we were just many many outer layers of false of identity.

What are you looking for at LU?
Someone could guide me through the "gate" and I could experience the "no self". I could conceptualized the idea, but has not able to really experience the at longer as "first experience". Almost as I could feel it so close during daily meditation, but I don't know how to reach it.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I guess understanding the burning urge as spiritual seeker which sometime could stock in the corner and not able to see the whole pictures. Or maybe could teach me really how to stop the urge of "seeking" and just relax to experience.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I had moment of confusion through life trauma last year. Since then I start to question what is "Truth"? Everything I thought it was the truth, all fall apart. I see no hope and desperate want a answer to end of my suffering. I start daily meditation, attending weekly local Sangha. Then I was introduced to "A course of miracle", and other practice...Everywhere I turned, I feel the universe try to lead me to find the Truth. But the biggest obstacle for now is this "self". I want to pass the 'self' and see the light.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?: 11

Re: Out of confusion and see the Truth

Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:33 am
by Ilona
Hi Boh,
Welcome to the forum. I see the universe brought you here. :)
We can have a conversation and see what that self thingy is all about. All I ask for is answering from your experience, focusing on my questions and looking what feels true to you. This is your process and it's your work to do. Feel free to post as much as you like, but keep it at least once a day..

Someone could guide me through the "gate" and I could experience the "no self". I could conceptualized the idea, but has not able to really experience the at longer as "first experience". Almost as I could feel it so close during daily meditation, but I don't know how to reach i
Sounds like you are looking for some kind of state. But truth is not a state. All states come and go, knowing, regognition is permanent. Just like when kid realises that Santa is not real. He can't believe that Santa is real again. Nothing to do with experience. All is very ordinary and simple. The experience that is happening right here right now, you know, this present moment, is there a self that is separate from life? It's all about facing the reality that there is no such entity, that is somehow separate from life. No I, the driver, the character, manager of the universe.
Can you look and tell me what feels true to you, what and where is this self that is an obstacle?

Kind regards

Re: Out of confusion and see the Truth

Posted: Mon May 01, 2017 8:08 pm
by BoH
Hello Ilona,

First I have to apologize that somehow I never get email notification and I have been patiently waiting, rather than actively log in my account to find that you have responded 2 weeks ago! I am so sorry! I hope this is not too late to answer the questions.
But from now on, I will check and carry our conversation daily.
Can you look and tell me what feels true to you, what and where is this self that is an obstacle?
I see myself from a young child, study, work, choose my life path, choose to come this website rather than other sites, choose to answer this email not other email...I know along the way, I met different people, different event, but I see "me" to make all choices in term of how I want to conduct my life...

Not sure if I answered any of your questions.

Thanks!

Bo

Re: Out of confusion and see the Truth

Posted: Mon May 01, 2017 8:26 pm
by BoH
Hello Ilona,

More thought on something. I see "myself"'s foot step along the "my" life path. I did actively participated life, but also feel like often I am just an "offense", I responded what life throw at me. But I still do feel that 'I" did actively made many choices. So if there is no "me", who made all the decisions to lead to today's "me"?

Thanks.

Bo

Re: Out of confusion and see the Truth

Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 4:53 pm
by Ilona
Hi Bo,
Thanks for reply! Sorry you did not get a notification, forum software is not perfect. Yes, please from today write once a day at least and let's get this rocking.

So you see yourself as decision maker, a chooser, a manager of what is happening. Now let's look closer at choice, how does a choice happen? Can you choose something that does not feel like a right choice in given circumstances? Can you choose something independently of situation?
Remember a situation where a big decision had to be made, could a different decision be made in same circumstances?

What is that owns the choice?

Take your time with these questions and write what you notice.
Sending love

Re: Out of confusion and see the Truth

Posted: Wed May 03, 2017 5:23 am
by BoH
Ilona,

I will do my best to contemplate and answer questions. Forgive me if sometimes my answer not matching with your questions, English is not my first language...

First, "how does a choice happen"

I guess a choice would happen when exterior situation or life requires you to make a choice. For example, if there are two different food for me to choose for lunch, then I have to actively make that choice. But if I am a prisoner, only one food presented daily, then I don't have to make any choices bc I have no choice...

Second, "can you choose something that doesn't feel like the right choice in given circumstances "

I think we do often choose something that we intuitively doesn't feel right but somehow we still do it for many psychological reasons, maybe because we were lack of better judgment or confused or self sabotage behavior.

"Can you choose something independently situation? "

Do you mean if no conditions presented? Then I wouldn't call that "choose" but like throw a coin to take whatever the side up, but even with that, I still "choose" based on the which side up or down, right? Otherwise, I think all choices are based on the situation then decisions made.

"Could different choice be made in same circumstances ?"

My answer is yes. So many different ways to achieve same goals. There could be many different options.

"What is that owns the choice?"

I am not sure I understand the question...my consciousness, I guess. Just like during meditation, I can't control any of the thoughts come into my mind, but with my awareness, I can choose to engage those thought or to let those thoughts go. It is my deliberate effort.

My house is out of power today so can't access computer. I can Only use my phone to answer which somewhat limit the expression. Sorry.

Many thanks!

Bo

Re: Out of confusion and see the Truth

Posted: Wed May 03, 2017 2:27 pm
by Ilona
Hi Bo, thank you for answers!

You say
I guess a choice would happen when exterior situation or life requires you to make a choice. For example, if there are two different food for me to choose for lunch, then I have to actively make that choice. But if I am a prisoner, only one food presented daily, then I don't have to make any choices bc I have no choice...
This is a theoretical answer, can you give me example of your own experience as it happens. Wait for a point where you need to make a choice, watch hoe it happens, describe how it happens. That's all I ask- answering from your own experience, not from thinking, not from textbooks or logic.
There is a difference between thinking and looking and it's as simple as that:
If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing, you can answer from memory, from thinking what you did in the morning, what socks you put in OR you can look down at the feet, see them and describe what you SEE. In this work I only need your answers from looking at what is and describing what you see. Cool? No guessing, no theorising, just plain looking. Simples.


Could different choice be make in same circumstances? Theoretically yes, practically impossible. And I'm asking you to look again here, could a something happen differently then what is happening? Here now, can something be different?

Is awareness something that chooses or there is awareness of choice made? Is awareness some kind of entity with feee will?
Have a look and write what feels true.

Sending love.

Re: Out of confusion and see the Truth

Posted: Thu May 04, 2017 4:04 am
by BoH
Hi Ilona,

Thanks for redirect me to look into the "direct experience".

When I need make a choice, I choose the "choice" make me feel relaxed, happy or satisfied in deep level. Superficial level, I do have thought that "I should choose that not this", but ultimately, I choose what I choose at the moment which satisfied me that moment's need.
Could different choice be make in same circumstances?
No. The choice made in that moment is the one and only choice (can have different thoughts about different choice).
Is awareness something that chooses or there is awareness of choice made? Is awareness some kind of entity with free will?
Awareness is always there. Just when my attention is not on the awareness, then I can't aware the awareness. I don't think that awareness has free will. That is just how I feel.

I re look into the previous questions again:
how does a choice happen
Choice happen when the choice meet my appetite in all kind, emotional, egotistic, sensory, whatever make body, mind, heart feel relax and happy, I guess...
Can you choose something that does not feel like a right choice in given circumstances?
No
Can you choose something independently of situation?
No
could a different decision be made in same circumstances?
No
What is that owns the choice?
This is hard question. When I see my favor food and put into my mouth. It is "me" feeding "my" appetite (sensory organ). When I choose to buy a red dress, there is image of "me" wear that dress and feel good about herself. Then 'I' bought that dress to fit that women's image/ego. Or I do something nice to my children, "I "am feeding my heart with love. But who is this "I"?

Many thanks!

Bo

Re: Out of confusion and see the Truth

Posted: Thu May 04, 2017 1:23 pm
by Ilona
Well noticed that there is only one choice and thoughts can say many things about it. Same when thoughts a
Say it's my appetite, my taste, my this or that. It's just a label, a description made after the event.

Who is this I? - this is a wrong question to ask.
Is there i? - this is the right question.

So is there i?
What happens when you ask this?
Just sit for a few minutes quietly and ask this question. Describe immediately what arises.

Sending love.

Re: Out of confusion and see the Truth

Posted: Fri May 05, 2017 3:49 am
by BoH
Ilona,

At today's meditation, I asked this question "Is there I". After few minutes into the quietness, I felt the very brief "falling into darkness" sensation, then the fear, then I stopped ask. I wasn't sure what that about, but surely I didn't have any answer. Then I feel frustrated and fear that I will never get the answer.

Then more thought came as this:

If I describe that "the body feels cold, then the hands go reach for jacket" or "the stomach feel the hunger, then signal send to the brain, the brain command the hand go reaching a banana...". That just like word game. Even I don't use "I", still totally feel it is "I" who is doing all that...My brain feel more confused and anxious.

Many thanks and I am grateful your guidance.

Bo

Re: Out of confusion and see the Truth

Posted: Fri May 05, 2017 4:50 pm
by Ilona
At today's meditation, I asked this question "Is there I". After few minutes into the quietness, I felt the very brief "falling into darkness" sensation, then the fear, then I stopped ask. I wasn't sure what that about, but surely I didn't have any answer. Then I feel frustrated and fear that I will never get the answer.
Thank you for taking a look. That silence, quietness is not an absence of an answer, that is THE answer. Stillness. Silence underneath all thought, is it I?
There is nothing that is true that can be lost. Only a belief falls away. The fear that comes up shows you the way where to look, what is behind the fear?

Ask the question again and if fear comes up, look behind it, see what is there that wants to be protected.
Describe what happens.

Sending love

Re: Out of confusion and see the Truth

Posted: Sat May 06, 2017 1:24 pm
by BoH
Ask the question again and if fear comes up, look behind it, see what is there that wants to be protected.
Describe what happens.
Silence...Silence...minus frustration, no fear arise...only silence

Many thanks.

Bo

Re: Out of confusion and see the Truth

Posted: Sat May 06, 2017 2:44 pm
by Ilona
mmm, nice.

how do you see other people, are there separate selves in them operating bodies?
how about his body, is there an i sitting in there giving out commands?
what feels true?

sending love

Re: Out of confusion and see the Truth

Posted: Mon May 08, 2017 3:46 am
by BoH
Hello Ilona,

During today's meditation, the question "Is there I" arise, then just like PingPong ball, it bounced on this wall few times then gone...I thought that was interesting.
how do you see other people, are there separate selves in them operating bodies?
Often there were voice in my mind like "He didn't know what he is doing...." or "she is not consciously, otherwise she won't act like that..." seems like I see other people do have separate selves in their operating bodies. This really brought my attention: If it is true for others, it has to be true for myself?
how about his body, is there an i sitting in there giving out commands?
Doesn't seem like that "I" working well. Otherwise, how men seems can be so often out of control and suffering?

At today quiet moment, questions also arise as: who is the one constantly judge and reject this body? Obsessively to the outer appearance? The weight, the skin, the body imagine...Ego? Who is the one cant help to judge others, judge self, then judge self for being judge others...Ego? Who is the one has all the fears then act out by the fears? Then there is separate entity can see all those above but seems helplessly to do anything about it...

Many thanks!
Bo

Re: Out of confusion and see the Truth

Posted: Mon May 08, 2017 1:10 pm
by BoH
Dear Ilona,

Life took me to the spiritual path and the things I want it the most is see the Truth, God, ultimately knowing Myself...What would happen if there is No "myself" at all, what am I seeking then? That sounds like very terrifying thought...something would take all my hope and belief away. Then what is about my spiritual practice? Who would run this entity name "Bo"? Will she find all the excuse now to acting out since no one to manage her? Who will help "Bo" to take care all the life responsibility? It is nice idea if "I" could get out of way and let someone (the infinite universe) who is so much more intelligent to manage "Bo"'s life, bc I could see "Bo"'s life so far is not very successful (in both human's eyes nor God's eye). Ilona, it is like the young child you have said to realized there is no Santa, but now she desperately to hold on the idea of Santa just bc afraid that no more presents at Christmas...there is desperation and fear to hold this "I" here...not sure how to surrender and let "I" go.

Many Thanks.

Bo