David's Inquiry

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Ilona
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Re: David's Inquiry

Postby Ilona » Fri Apr 28, 2017 1:13 am

So the body is a sensing organism that perceives a world and includes itself in that world.The author of this response is definitely a sensing organism that perceives a world. Everything else ("human") is a learned conversation.
The author of this response is a learned conversation.

Let's look closer at the thinking process, how does it work, is there a thinker?
Are you the thinker?
If so, do you know what the next thought will be?
Wait for a thought and notice how it shows up. Where did it come from?
This voice in the head that narrates the story, it keeps talking. What is it talking to?
What is that is listening? Is this voice driving what is happening?

Spend time with these questions to see what you can find out and write to me about it.

Much love
Truth realized will set you free.
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DavidFredW
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Re: David's Inquiry

Postby DavidFredW » Sat Apr 29, 2017 2:26 am

Reviewing my previous post, I have come to a different conclusion. The brain generates thoughts, My brain is aware of those thoughts and David (there's no David/I) does not generate those thoughts - they come with the mechanism. The mystery, for me lies in the dichotomy that I am "thinking" what to write next, yet I have a weak grasp of the idea that the brain thinks without "I". Possibly the brain generates thoughts in response to whatever the brain is perceiving and those generated thoughts yield what I write. This is a tough one...

When I began this inquiry, I would have said I am the thinker. If there is no "I" / thinker, then the brain must generate the thoughts that inform the writing. There is definitely an occurring that "I" am writing these words. I have "looked" to see what my response is to your questions. But wait, there's no "I"! Up til now, I would have considered my self the thinker, but there's no self! So, I am concluding that the brain generates thoughts in response to the external environment. This last thought arose out of my considering your questions and my immediate previous writing. This is HARD! Where does Free Will fit in all this?

"I" am not the thinker and I do not know what the next thought will be. (There's no "I") It would seem that the brain generates a thought and the next and the next in response to whatever is in front of it. Never thought deeply about the "voice in the head". It is "talking" whenever the body/brain is awake. It seems that it (the voice) is just broadcasting to an audience of one (itself!?).

The voice in the head seems to be talking to itself - a weird statement... I am beginning to suspect that there is no "driver"; everything is response, response, response to whatever came before.

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Re: David's Inquiry

Postby Ilona » Sat Apr 29, 2017 1:38 pm

Good work! Thank you for looking.
Let's dig even deeper. The rabbit hole awaits :)
The brain generates thoughts, My brain is aware of those thoughts and David (there's no David/I) does not generate those thoughts - they come with the mechanism.
We have learned from books that brain generates thoughts. Now you say that brain is aware of thought. Is that so?
You are aware of the thoughts. Thoughts about brain included. Are you the brain?

How is brain experienced in actuality? Is it brain aware or you are aware? Is there a gap between you and brain?

Is body experiencing or body is experienced?
Is there an experiencer?
Is there a witness?

Keep looking. You're on the right track.

Sending love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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Re: David's Inquiry

Postby DavidFredW » Mon May 01, 2017 3:34 am

Ok, OK, gheese! Carol (my wife, who is also engaged with LU), and I had an extended discussion about what we are seeing and concluding.

Here's where I am now: We all have a brain. The brain generates thoughts, independent of "me". So thoughts pass thorough my brain during my waking hours, independent of "I" and "David". I would no longer say the brain is "aware" of thoughts. The brain "thinks" - end of story. I am not the brain. Brain is something David was born with as a human. There are thoughts, generated by the brain - end of story. (I think :) )

There can be no gap between "I"/"me" and brain. It's all brain. My body/head just transport for brain.

Thoughts occur and have no experience of brain. Thoughts are generated by brain. Body is experienced by brain.
No experiencer.
Witness would imply outside mind/body. No witness.

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Re: David's Inquiry

Postby Ilona » Mon May 01, 2017 3:48 pm

Thank you for reply!
Here's where I am now: We all have a brain. The brain generates thoughts, independent of "me". So thoughts pass thorough my brain during my waking hours, independent of "I" and "David". I would no longer say the brain is "aware" of thoughts. The brain "thinks" - end of story. I am not the brain. Brain is something David was born with as a human. There are thoughts, generated by the brain - end of story. (I think :) )
We all have brain? That's something learned from biology class and there is assumption that we are bags of skin with a brain in it which perceives and thinks? Well, challenge that!

You say that brain is not aware of thoughts, what is aware of thoughts? What is aware of brain? And how do you experience the brain? there is a lot of confusion in your paragraph, care to untangle it?
There is no David, but David was born as human and has brain?

Hmmmmmm

Are you brain?

Sending love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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DavidFredW
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Re: David's Inquiry

Postby DavidFredW » Wed May 03, 2017 1:27 am

You are Ruthless! Hooray!

Biological science tells us there is an 8 lb mass of cells in our head called a "brain". That said, I have never seen, felt or experienced "brain". If there's no "I" there's not any perception of brain in any sense. Which then seems to get us closer to just thoughts, without a "thinker".

The author of these words has no awareness of brain and "brain" has no awareness of itself. Body/mind perceives a world. If there were no body/minds, B/M's would run into objects/other B/Ms all the time.There are thoughts. I can't say I "experience" thoughts, yet this conversation shows up as thoughts. Clearly there is no experience of brain.

There is no thing "David".There seems to be perception, but I can't say who or what is perceiving. Perhaps there is just "perceiving" without a "who" or "what". A challenge to finds words to articulate these thoughts...

In response to your last question; there's no "David" in here (body/mind). There are thoughts that conceive of "David", "human", "born"...

All this is beginning to occur like walking though wet cement... I know, I know: who/what is walking, experiencing an occurring... And there's no "I" so what is having this "experience"...Damned if the writer knows!

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Re: David's Inquiry

Postby Ilona » Wed May 03, 2017 2:11 pm

Ok, there is an assumption that there is author of thoughts. Is there? Is there an author at all? Are you an author of breathing, walking, seeing colours? Find that author and tell me where is it? How do you experience this author?

You are on the right track, just look for yourself in experience, what is that owns the authorship of life?

Sending love
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Re: David's Inquiry

Postby DavidFredW » Fri May 05, 2017 12:11 am

No author, just life showing up. No one, nothing "owns" the authorship of life. There's life period.

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Ilona
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Re: David's Inquiry

Postby Ilona » Fri May 05, 2017 1:10 am

How does this make you feel?
Life is.
Is anything separate from life, outside of life?
Is there inside and outside?
Take a look with eyes open and closed, where is the line that separates you from everything else?
Inside from outside?

Describe what you notice.

Sending love
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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Re: David's Inquiry

Postby DavidFredW » Tue May 09, 2017 1:20 am

How does my conclusion make me feel? Light, may be the best way to describe my experience of not author, etc. Carol and I now respond to events ("good" and "bad") with that's just life "happening".

Nothing is outside of life. I paused to consider death... part of life. Nothing separate from life.

Is there inside/outside? Not as far as I can tell. Life happens "out here" and is all inclusive. A distinction from the work David does.

No line separating me from everything else. It's all life. With eyes closed, smells, sounds, tactile experiences show up - all part of the whole. "Inside" no longer has the same meaning for me. Inside what?

It just occurred to me that "inside" is something of a self-constructed prison with boundaries and limitations.No boundaries or limits, just what shows up.

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Re: David's Inquiry

Postby Ilona » Tue May 09, 2017 2:09 pm

Beautiful!
And yet, there is inner and outer, as a useful concept. Like when eyes are closed and sensations are felt, that we call inner world, and with eyes open we see outer world.. but all is felt in awareness, knowing. There is knowing that this IS. inner/outer, inside/outside, here/there- useful when communicating. But where does this boundless space end?

Do thoughts limit what IS?

Sending love
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Re: David's Inquiry

Postby DavidFredW » Thu May 11, 2017 4:54 am

There's no end to "boundless" space - boundless... no limit/no bounds. As you wrote, inner/outer, etc. may be useful in communication with people who have not looked.

You say "knowing"... There may be speculation regarding the realms you suggested; i.e. inner/outer, etc.

Thoughts do not limit what is. Believing thoughts, however, limits human perspective of what is. There's no end to boundless space.

Thoughts show-up, unbidden...an assessment of what is, a confirmation of what is, a rejection of what is. All that speculation said, thoughts do not limit what IS.

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Re: David's Inquiry

Postby Ilona » Sat May 13, 2017 4:12 pm

Lovely!
Can you say with a big fat YES, it's clear what we are pointing here to?
Is anything missing? Any doubts?
What is the biggest difference from before?

Sending love
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Re: David's Inquiry

Postby DavidFredW » Mon May 15, 2017 11:15 pm

YES; it's clear that what we are pointing to is the ephemeral nature of thoughts. They aren't "real", they do not represent "truth", they are not even "mine".

I am freer than before this conversation and in some ways more powerful in my life. I am not suggesting any kind of cause & effect, but life seems much less "serious"!

Nothing's missing, no doubts concerning this conversation... it occurs to me that there's nothing to doubt...hmmmm.

The biggest difference from before: instead of dealing with "my" thoughts about this and that and categorizing those thoughts as "good" or "bad"... there's just thoughts. Way less judgement of myself (the human). And, interestingly enough, more "power" in life.

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Re: David's Inquiry

Postby Ilona » Tue May 16, 2017 1:49 pm

Wonderful!
How is it looking today?
Are you ready for the final questions?
Is there still some seeking or it subsided?

Sending love
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book


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