Recognizing my non-dual nature

[Secrethippie]

Hi Rowena,

However, what is this "ego" that feels attacked?

I have been inspecting for a a while. Looking for the ego. I can't find anything but thought content making a story of an ego. And a sensory experience attached to it. What is this ego? I feel a strong contraction in the chest and forehead. Thoughts are being formed. No clear findings on what the ego is. When looking for it, there are just the fleeting thoughts and the constantly changing pattern of sensations.

What does it consist of?

There are just seperate thoughts that are somehow clustered into one central figure, the ego. However, it will need just another thought to say that those thoughts are attached to an ego, and to relate certain sensory experiences to the ego. eg. the sensory experience of fear or frustration can be connected to a thougth saying: "I am frustrated". When this happens it seems so clear that it is me, the ego, who is frustrated. Than thoughts say there is no ego, or that I should not be frustrated, or that I should find a way to get rid of the frustration etc. It will create a loop of thoughts and sensations that all feel like Me.

Does it actually exist as a thing or is it just habitual thoughts, beliefs, motivations?

it are habitual thoughts, beliefs, motivations, linked to a sensory experience (different sensory experiences and emotions can be linked to it) that feels somehow familiar and seperate from the environment. Here opposed to there (or inside and outside, me and them). But it is very difficult to find the actual seperation and hence the actual ego when looking for it. It is only a thought that can claim "i exist" or "I am this". But it also feels like me. When looking into that, this feeling of me appears to be nothing but a sensory experience (often with a strong contraction in troat, gut, chest and forehead area) combined with a thought that feels like a Me experiencing it. Quite an ingenious mechanism:)

Please don't answer from conviction, but rather look freshly at it... If it feels right, please pay attention to the experience of "ego" for a while, when does it emerge, what is it? Are there sensations (like contraction or such) that tend to be experienced before the thoughts that are referred to as ego come?

So there are definitely associated patterns of sensations attached to the ego. Mostly now I feel the sensations everywhere, so it is difficult to pick out a certain set of sensations. I feel different emotions could be attached to the ego as well. Like I said before: "I am sad, angry, lonely, etc.". It is the thought of I am something or a thought of other people are something and the apparant proximity of myself compared to others that keeps this idea of a self alive.

With love,
Thomas

[Noro]

Hi Thomas,

There is a bit of hide and seek going on here!

I have been inspecting for a a while. Looking for the ego. I can't find anything but thought content making a story of an ego.

Yes...... and then.....

When this happens it seems so clear that it is me, the ego, who is frustrated. Than thoughts say there is no ego, or that I should not be frustrated, or that I should find a way to get rid of the frustration etc. It will create a loop of thoughts and sensations that all feel like Me.

But it is very difficult to find the actual seperation and hence the actual ego when looking for it. It is only a thought that can claim "i exist" or "I am this". But it also feels like me. When looking into that, this feeling of me appears to be nothing but a sensory experience (often with a strong contraction in troat, gut, chest and forehead area) combined with a thought that feels like a Me experiencing it. Quite an ingenious mechanism:)

So there are definitely associated patterns of sensations attached to the ego. Mostly now I feel the sensations everywhere, so it is difficult to pick out a certain set of sensations. I feel different emotions could be attached to the ego as well. Like I said before: "I am sad, angry, lonely, etc.". It is the thought of I am something or a thought of other people are something and the apparant proximity of myself compared to others that keeps this idea of a self alive.

You are seeing how things move in your direct experience, but then you return to beliefs and concepts.
You are seeing how the mechanism works, that 'ego' is nothing more than sensations plus thoughts and the label...and then you say it feels like you.

Does it feel 100% clear and convincing to you that here is no 'you' that is the ego? Or, to be more precise, is it clear to you that you don't find a 'self', but it still really feels like there is one?
Are there some hidden thoughts/beliefs that it should somehow be clearer?

EXPLORE THE SENSE OF SELF:
Difference in Feeling something to be true and Seeing that it is or isn't.

Let’s say that you have lost your keys and you swear that you left them in your coat. You go to look and check all the pockets - the keys are not there. You swear they must be as that was the last place you remember them. You have a vivid memory of putting them there after you left the house. But when you check they are not there.
At this point you can keep on believing that the keys are in your pocket, or you can admit that even if they were, they are no longer there now.

This is just like that. You may see clearly that the self is an illusion but still feel a sense of self - just like the keys.
Feeling something to be true and seeing that it is or is not is different.

It can often take a while for there to be a clear experiential shift even though it is clearly seen in direct experience that the idea of a separate, independent, autonomous self is an illusion. Old habits die hard, and words and thoughts can pull us right back into our conditioned assumptions and responses.

If it really feels like there is a self, please take some time to really pay attention to what that experience is in real time, and if it is in fact a self. Keep enquiring: "Is this the self?" Keep on searching until some kind of shift happens.

Also, if you would like to join an online group to continue working through the sense of believing and identifying with self/ego, Vince Schubert has three meetings a week. Please contact him via email:
vinceschubert@gmail.com for a link and schedule.


With love,

Rowena

[Secrethippie]

Hi Rowena,

Does it feel 100% clear and convincing to you that here is no 'you' that is the ego? Or, to be more precise, is it clear to you that you don't find a 'self', but it still really feels like there is one?

Yes, this is exactly it. There is clearly no self to find, but it still feels like a self is present. Especially in daily life, but also here typing. Often it feels to be looking from the eyes. It also feels that the narrator, the voice is me. But upon investigation all of it is clearly not what it feels like. It is just some creative construction of mind and body. Primarily thoughts binding it all together.

Are there some hidden thoughts/beliefs that it should somehow be clearer?

I am sometimes not sure if it is just an intellectual understanding, so still through thoughts, or that I have really clearly seen no self. Many exercises definitely showed me that all is just thought content, but realizing this hasnt created much of an experiential shift of no self. It still feels like this suffering self, during most of the day.

It can often take a while for there to be a clear experiential shift even though it is clearly seen in direct experience that the idea of a separate, independent, autonomous self is an illusion. Old habits die hard, and words and thoughts can pull us right back into our conditioned assumptions and responses.

Very true. It was on the moment that you mentioned that we were done with the process that thoughs came up saying that I am not there yet, and also that this feeling of a self remained largely here. I say largely, because there are moments where I feel much more emerged in the environment and at ease, but for large parts experience still feels very uncomfortable. Sure, I can notice from DE that there is no such thing as a self, but it has not been integrated in life yet. Perhaps I haven't seen it clearly enough yet?

If it really feels like there is a self, please take some time to really pay attention to what that experience is in real time, and if it is in fact a self. Keep enquiring: "Is this the self?" Keep on searching until some kind of shift happens.

When really investigating and inquiring the feeling of self becomes more vague and less concentrated. There is the constant changing patterns of the senses, and the feeling of self is not different from it. It is arising in DE, disguised as something permanent. After noticing this, a strong sense of calmness arives. A sense that everyting is good as it is. All sensations and feelings are welcome and naturally experiences come and go, not feeling seperated from it. Untill content of thoughts takes over... haha.

I will send Vince a mail, thank you!

With love,
Thomas

[Noro]

Hi Thomas,

Yes, this is exactly it. There is clearly no self to find, but it still feels like a self is present. Especially in daily life, but also here typing.

Yes, "this creative construction of mind and body. Primarily thoughts binding it all together" it doesn't necessarily let go easily. Doubt can arise and then another round of checking in: "Is there a self?" "Where is this self?" "Is it true?

Often it feels to be looking from the eyes.

This can be a good place to investigate. When there is a lot of thinking going on, it can be like there is a harder, more mental 'quality' that seems to be looking through the eyes. And then compare that with when you are relaxed, letting go of thoughts and in direct experience of seeing. How does it feel then, has that 'quality' changed? Keep investigating!
Is the gaze softer now, without that 'self-like of quality?

realizing this hasnt created much of an experiential shift of no self. It still feels like this suffering self, during most of the day.

The childhood conditioning patters will remain to be looked at and investigated. I would suggest you take a look here:
https://theawakeningcurriculum.com. Todd and Pernille continue the investigation of self and identification in great detail.

It was on the moment that you mentioned that we were done with the process that thoughs came up saying that I am not there yet, and also that this feeling of a self remained largely here.

There is no need to be 'done' with the process. It is true that it appeared that you were ready to take a look at those questions, and then it was found necessary to continue the investigation. And as far as I am concerned, I am happy to keep up this dialogue with you for as long as it lasts!

After noticing this, a strong sense of calmness arives. A sense that everyting is good as it is. All sensations and feelings are welcome and naturally experiences come and go, not feeling seperated from it.

Beautiful! :)


You will be receiving an email from LU admin shortly, but this does not mean our conversation is at an end!
If you like we can look into specific patterns that create a return to 'selfing' and therefore, suffering?

With love,

Rowena

[Secrethippie]

Hi Rowena,

This can be a good place to investigate. When there is a lot of thinking going on, it can be like there is a harder, more mental 'quality' that seems to be looking through the eyes. And then compare that with when you are relaxed, letting go of thoughts and in direct experience of seeing. How does it feel then, has that 'quality' changed? Keep investigating!
Is the gaze softer now, without that 'self-like of quality?

When less in thoughts, for instance when emerged in an activity or resting in being, attention seems to more broad. So it feels less like everything is experienced and known up here, but the senses are experienced wherever the senses are happening. There is not even a concern about the thougths, although of course there are also thoughts in such states.

There is no need to be 'done' with the process. It is true that it appeared that you were ready to take a look at those questions, and then it was found necessary to continue the investigation. And as far as I am concerned, I am happy to keep up this dialogue with you for as long as it lasts!

Thank you:)

The childhood conditioning patters will remain to be looked at and investigated. I would suggest you take a look here:
https://theawakeningcurriculum.com. Todd and Pernille continue the investigation of self and identification in great detail.

Thanks, I already got recommended by a friend:), started with the first fetter.

If you like we can look into specific patterns that create a return to 'selfing' and therefore, suffering?

That sounds perfect. I must say that looking into the feeling of self, where does it feel like a 'self', has been helpful the past few days. It has given me some pleasant meditations and also during the day it helps me to shift from constant thinking to being more in DE. (brief moments I must admit, until I get distracted in the busy city life)

Loving regards,
Thomas

[Noro]

Hello Thomas,

I am sensing a shift to greater clarity! :)

Yes, that 'sense of self'...... that feeling ...... it is something that can draw us back again and again to investigate! What do those words point to? I am so happy to hear that they lead you to some pleasant meditations and help you to shift away from thoughts. Until naturally busy city life requires your attention!

I'm here whenever you have something you would like to share.

With love,

Rowena

[Secrethippie]

Hi Rowena,

I forgot to thank you for all your support and patience.
Last weeks have been very busy with work, but I will now dive into the LU aftercare options.
Thank you for doing this!

Much love!
Thomas

[Noro]

Hi Thomas,

Good to hear from you, and you are welcome, I enjoyed our conversations!
Have fun with the LU aftercare options, and know that you can always contact me in the future.

With love,
Rowena