Clarity

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Ronaldo
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Re: Clarity

Postby Ronaldo » Mon Apr 05, 2021 5:41 pm

And what knows experience? Is it experience, experiencing itself? Could it be?
That's all "I" can find... there is just experience, knowing, this, aware-ing of...

How does it all feel?
The truth is simple. If it was complicated, everyone would understand it. ~Walt Whitman
Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real ~Niels Bohr

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Nicolette
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Re: Clarity

Postby Nicolette » Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:35 pm

Hi Ron,
How does it all feel?
It feels good and natural. There's a little excitement. There's a little fear. The attention is here and I feel alive.
I'm still stuck on 'me' and the 'body' and the thought of it pulls me back. As soon as I put my attention on DE, everything feels wider. I see that there is just this, yes. But soon thoughts appear and I forget. I don't know if I answered the question?

Regards,
Nicolette

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Re: Clarity

Postby Ronaldo » Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:47 pm

Hi Nicolette,
Yes, that was my question, how you feel is a great indicator, do you feel a shift in how you perceive that self?
The natural and excitement part are good, but why is there fear? That tells me that there is doubt and resistance.

Even when it is seen clearly there will be flip-flopping. Often you'd be still immersed in thoughts and the "story of me" will continue to be there. The story is not going to go away, but at any time, can you see that the self is noting but illusion?

Please try and express where the doubts are?
What is the fear about?
What is the self from your perspective?

Regards
Ron
The truth is simple. If it was complicated, everyone would understand it. ~Walt Whitman
Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real ~Niels Bohr

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Re: Clarity

Postby Nicolette » Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:34 pm

Hi Ron,
do you feel a shift in how you perceive that self?
Yes, I have felt a shift and that shift feels good, but then I start thinking my way out of it.

Yes, there is doubt and resistance. There is a desire to overcomplicate things and an attachment to thoughts as a distraction from experiencing just 'this'.
There is fear from loosing what I perceive as myself, as if I will suddenly implode and all proof of my existence will be erased.
Then the 'body' still feels or seems so solid, eventhough I'm experiencing sensations only when applying DE.
but at any time, can you see that the self is noting but illusion?
When applying DE and awareness is only on what is being experienced through the senses, here and now. Then I look for the self, but there is only experience or as you say, 'this'. It feels good again and there is that little bit of excitement again.
What is the fear about?
That this is too simple and I'm missing something.
That I could stop existing and wouldn't be an individual anymore.
What is the self from your perspective?
The self is all my memories, history, struggles, the body and face I see in the mirror and the future I want for myself.
This self feels threatened that there is only, 'this'. If there is only, 'this' then the fantasy self must go or so it feels and there is great attachment to the fantasy self.

Warm Regards,
Nicolette

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Re: Clarity

Postby Ronaldo » Tue Apr 06, 2021 4:41 am

Hi Nicolette,
Thanks for taking the time to express these, I'll address your comments in a bit.
There is one additional area we haven't yet looked into - are you the doer of things?
You've already clearly seen that there is no control over thoughts and there is no chooser... it all just appears and disappears.

I love to observe the body in action, for example when taking a shower, notice how the hands go about washing the body and hair, adjusting the water. Notice how this complex task is not repetitive and yet, are you the owner, the doer of this, or it just happens by itself?
I also like to observe when the shower ends, turning off the water - do you do that? Was there a thought, followed by action? It's not always clear and easy to see, but check it out for yourself.
Getting out of bed?
Where are your hands? Did you put them there?

Here is one exercise that demonstrates this:
Put the palm of your hand facing up, and only curl (move) one finger each time (any finger), watch what is the difference of moving them with intention and then without intention, switch moving them with intention and without intention (but move them).
Do you find a real difference?
When you find yourself thinking about something else, and your fingers keep moving - does intention moves them, or they just move?
How is this intention controlled? Does intention affect action, or is that just something thought claims "I'm moving the 3rd finger now" but the movement just happens?


Let me know what you find
with love
Ron
The truth is simple. If it was complicated, everyone would understand it. ~Walt Whitman
Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real ~Niels Bohr

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Re: Clarity

Postby Nicolette » Tue Apr 06, 2021 4:35 pm

Hi Ron,
are you the doer of things?
On the face of it, it seems so, especially as I move my body forward and rush to get things done. This is what I think to myself.
Getting out of bed, I have the though to do it, and all moving parts go where they should in the blink of an eye, including my hands. If I had to think every part that moves, every action taken into being and into sequence it would take forever.
No, I'm not the doer of things and I experience what is happening through the senses and sensations.
I love to observe the body in action, for example when taking a shower, notice how the hands go about washing the body and hair, adjusting the water. Notice how this complex task is not repetitive and yet, are you the owner, the doer of this, or it just happens by itself?
Every action taken and movement made happens in unison with one onother. I am involved as experience/this, is happening and senses are involved. I can see I am not the doer and at the same time it's so easy to fall back into thinking that I am. I did notice as I was paying attention to sound coming from a different room, that I was completely distracted and yet I finished with drying my face without my attention fully being on it and it startled me. If I'm the doer I should have stopped and stood frozen like a robot until I gave the next command, but I didn't. Actions/movements took place on their own accord.
Put the palm of your hand facing up, and only curl (move) one finger each time (any finger), watch what is the difference of moving them with intention and then without intention, switch moving them with intention and without intention (but move them).
Do you find a real difference?
No, it feels the same whether I will it or it happens by itself. When applying DE the sensations are the same in both cases.
When you find yourself thinking about something else, and your fingers keep moving - does intention moves them, or they just move?
How is this intention controlled? Does intention affect action, or is that just something thought claims "I'm moving the 3rd finger now" but the movement just happens?
This is interesting as my fingers keep moving on their own as my attention wanders away and I look outside. It so feels like I must be giving the intention for my fingers to move, but it's a thought I'm caught up in that says I'm the doer and I am not the one controlling or commanding.

Yesterday, as I answered questions and felt a jolt and some excitement/joy, I also felt an energetic change take place (and as if a sensation was running over my neck and head) and every time I have a clear moment in which I'm not back trapped in thought, it happens again. Last night, taking my thoughts of the body, off the body, lol, I felt great again and this morning, waking up and hearing sounds, thoughts didn't distract me. There was only, this, here and now. There are times throughout my day when it's like that again and other times when I'm back to believing the thought that I'm the doer. The fear seems less when I see that I'm not the doer, but that I believe the thought that I am, and I feel happiness and less anxiety about it.

Regards,
Nicolette

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Re: Clarity

Postby Ronaldo » Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:02 pm

Dear Nicolette,
Nice looking! Your'e doing very well.
Yesterday, as I answered questions and felt a jolt and some excitement/joy, I also felt an energetic change take place (and as if a sensation was running over my neck and head) and every time I have a clear moment in which I'm not back trapped in thought, it happens again. Last night, taking my thoughts of the body, off the body, lol, I felt great again and this morning, waking up and hearing sounds, thoughts didn't distract me. There was only, this, here and now. There are times throughout my day when it's like that again and other times when I'm back to believing the thought that I'm the doer. The fear seems less when I see that I'm not the doer, but that I believe the thought that I am, and I feel happiness and less anxiety about it.
This sounds good! As I pointed out before, don't expect that the story of me will disappear, it will continue, only with time and continued looking that imaginary self will lose its stickiness.
When you feel a sensation identified as "body" look, observe the thought that tags "me" with "sensation in my....". There is never a need to try fighting the illusion, just noticing it and its beautiful mystery :)
The question is - is there a Nicolette who runs life?

Now let's go back to some of your previous answers:
Then the 'body' still feels or seems so solid, eventhough I'm experiencing sensations only when applying DE.
Yes, the body is perhaps the heaviest anchor of the self illusion... it feels solid until you look and notice how this sensation and identification is formed each moment.
Please close your eyes and pinch your arm.. sense the sensation and tags coming up "pain" "arm". then let it be there.
Is there anything there that is experienced except for sensation?

That this is too simple and I'm missing something.
That I could stop existing and wouldn't be an individual anymore.
It is simple, but if you see it, you'd not fear it because the realization would hit you - it's already that way, it has never been any other way! How can something that already is change what already is? Sit with that for a bit.

This self feels threatened that there is only, 'this'. If there is only, 'this' then the fantasy self must go or so it feels and there is great attachment to the fantasy self.
Is there a false and imaginary self? Is it an entity that has wishes and fears?
Aren't these all just thoughts appearing and fading, some seem to evoke sensations?

You brought up memories a few times, so let's dig a bit into this wonder!

What is memory exactly? I'd like you to bring up:
1. an image of something you remember well
2. something someone said to you

please don’t go to thought explanations, but just let a memory be there, and look at it…

What is the memory ‘made of’?
When the memory appears, when does it appear? (then, now?)
What is the difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?
How is it known that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened in the past?

Then, look at a thought about the future, maybe what you plan to do etc.

When does the future thought actually appear?
How is it known that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?

What evidence is there that you went for a walk or ate lunch yesterday?

I'm talking real actual evidence not a story.

What can you say about past and future, where do they take place?

With love
Ron
The truth is simple. If it was complicated, everyone would understand it. ~Walt Whitman
Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real ~Niels Bohr

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Re: Clarity

Postby Nicolette » Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:10 pm

Hi Ron,
Thanxs😊
is there a Nicolette who runs life?
When I focus on the senses only and I'm in the now, everything feels clear and there is no thought of 'Nicolette' and no anxiety about if she is real or running the show, or not. When thoughts appear, I fall back into imagination and a murkiness appear. The freshness is gone as I'm in my head instead of experiencing what's happening in the moment, right now. That's when anxiety appears. Where is Nicolette, really? In the head? In the body? I can't get a grip on her if I don't fall into thinking. The concept of Nicolette think she runs life, but there is no proof for that in DE. There is no one there who runs life, it simply happens and 'Nicolette' is along for the ride.
Is there anything there that is experienced except for sensation?
No. There is only sensation.
Is there a false and imaginary self? Is it an entity that has wishes and fears?
The imaginary/fantasy self is made up of thoughts. Focusing on DE only, there is only this moment and I feel no fear. 'Thinking' about who 'I' was, am or want to be is to step out of DE, this moment and into that murkiness inside my head/thoughts that feels dead in comparison to DE. When completely present, there is no thought, and no false or imaginary self. When I think about it, there is a person who has very strong wishes and fears. Again, if I don't think there is a person there, then there is no one there, which feels perfectly ok.
What is the memory ‘made of’?
Imagination. There is colour and sound, but nothing as alive as DE.
When the memory appears, when does it appear? (then, now?)
It comes up now.
What is the difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?
A memory thought seems to have more emotions for me (unless that's also a thought) and it's more vivid and I spend more time in it, then say, in the thought, 'I must get up to brush my teeth' .
How is it known that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened in the past?
A 'memory' thought recalls an event that happened in the past.
When does the future thought actually appear?
It appears in the present time, now.
How is it known that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?
It hasn't been experienced yet. I 'see' myself doing something in the future, not now but at a later time. I don't actually know that it will happen in the future, but I imagine/think it will.
What evidence is there that you went for a walk or ate lunch yesterday?
I'm talking real actual evidence not a story.
There is trash left over if it hasn't been removed yet. My mussels could still hurt from the walk. But, actually, eating lunch or going for a walk is something I have to recall using the imagination, so, no, there is no real evidence other than thought about whether I actually had lunch, etc.
What can you say about past and future, where do they take place?
They come up as thoughts in the now, present moment.

I answered these questions with honesty as to how I see things right now even if I'm not seeing clearly, and am looking forward to finding out where I have more false beliefs that are standing in my way.😉

Thank you for keeping at it, Ron!

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Re: Clarity

Postby Ronaldo » Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:22 pm

Dear Nicolette,
Direct Experience is a teacher, but life is far richer than that, and we can't ignore that. There is no body and yet there is, there are nothing to see but colour forming shapes, and yet sitting on a chair happens. How all this actually works is a total mystery but the beginning of liberation starts with these recognitions that the thinker, doer and decider are all fantasy in thoughts. Integrating life with what is seen, is where you'll find yourself next, looking in DE through your day but not bypassing emotions as meaningless thoughts and sensations, they "want" to be seen.

What is the memory ‘made of’?:
Imagination. There is colour and sound, but nothing as alive as DE.
Yes, but to make sure it's clear it's made of a thought, a memory is a thought!

A memory thought seems to have more emotions for me (unless that's also a thought) and it's more vivid and I spend more time in it, then say, in the thought, 'I must get up to brush my teeth' .
The only difference between a memory (a thought about the past) and a thought about "this glass is filthy" is the content of the thought, the memory is just claiming to be about something in the past.

There is trash left over if it hasn't been removed yet. My mussels could still hurt from the walk. But, actually, eating lunch or going for a walk is something I have to recall using the imagination, so, no, there is no real evidence other than thought about whether I actually had lunch, etc.
Right, so called "evidence" like trash or dirty dishes just say what it is now, any assumption is in memories, thoughts about a non exiting past! Please bring up a memory and see it for yourself. Either it's contained within the thought, or another thought will place it in a past.

There is an assumption of time, that time started way way in the distant past and goes in a linear fashion to the endless future. As if "now" is bead that is sliding on that string called time.
But is time real, or is time a thought concept?
It's a funny thing, but you cannot even define "time" without using "time" or "interval" which is again time...
You can ponder over these...
Is there an actual past or a real future that is not just being immersed in thoughts and imagination?
Life seems to be unfolding, creating the illusion of time, but isn't everything already what it is when it happens? Is there ever choice or a controller?

We have a set of questions when the investigation is completed, aimed to see if the illusion of self has been seen through (which we share with other guides to see if there are more questions). Here are the first 4, please answer them with full honesty, and from the view of now, so that we can figure out if we should get back to anything.


1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?
2) Share in your own words what the illusion of separate self is and how it shows up in experience.
3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?
The truth is simple. If it was complicated, everyone would understand it. ~Walt Whitman
Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real ~Niels Bohr

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Re: Clarity

Postby Nicolette » Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:16 pm

Hi Ron,
But is time real, or is time a thought concept
Time is a thought concept. There is only the experience of what is happening in this moment. I am not present in any other time than what is happening right now.
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?
There is no concept of an identity here and now and yet, there is awareness of the senses being experienced. I have to go into a thought of 'self', 'me' and 'I' for there to be the concept of a separate identity, shape or form. What is now is all there ever was.
2) Share in your own words what the illusion of separate self is and how it shows up in experience.
Separate self appears when there is a shift in attention of being fully present in this moment to what is unfolding right now, of what is actually being experienced to a thought appearing in story format taking my attention with it and I start to believe this story/thought.
Thought appears in the story of an 'I' who is the one trying to get things done, who is the one trying to control what needs to get done first and what would be done next, ticking off all the to-do's on the list, all in an attempt to 'get things done successfully' creating the illusion of a doer, eventhough unfoldment of that which is happening in the present moment, takes place regardless of any interferance /control by the 'I'.
3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
There is a joyfulness, a relaxation, an at ease-ness, a little bit of excitement and giddiness.There is more of an interest than there was before in what is happening right now, when it felt boring to do so. Thoughts or fantacy/imagination was far more interesting before this dialogue took place and felt it far more natural to be in thought than to experience the actual now unfolding as is.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?
On Monday April 4th when you asked this of me:
Is there any separation between the seen and the knowing of it? - the experience of the seen?
Is there any separation between a sound and the experience (or the knowing) of the sound?
Is there anything to be found except for experience?
And what knows experience?
What do you find?
There was a jolt inside and a shift in energy and an expansiveness enveloping.

Warm Regards,
Nicolette

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Re: Clarity

Postby Ronaldo » Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:31 pm

Thank you! Beautiful to read this.
Here are the last few:

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.
b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.
6) Anything to add?
The truth is simple. If it was complicated, everyone would understand it. ~Walt Whitman
Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real ~Niels Bohr

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Re: Clarity

Postby Nicolette » Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:28 am

Hi Ron,
5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.
There is no free will. Choice, desision, control are all thought concepts that create the illusion of a seperate 'I', a doer in this world, busy making things happen, when there is only ever the experience of what is unfolding in the now. There is only expereience of what is taking place in every moment.There is no 'me' making descisions or exhorting control over thoughts. Since I've already exercised intention in an attempt change thoughts from negative into more positive thoughts or to stop thoughts altogether, I've experienced that, that cannot be done. There is no 'me' at the controls choosing what happens in this moment. There is no doer of things making sure the Earth turns and the Sun shines. There is only experience unfolding.
b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.
I am not responsible for thoughts as I can only become aware that they appear and dissappear. There is no control over stopping thoughts for instance, or changing them to stop midway or to be more positive. I am not the cause of thoughts and not responsible for their creation, or from where they come or go to. Same with the sounds I hear, there is no I sitting here making any of it happen, there is only the experience of sound in this moment.There is no judgement in the moment as everything is simply experience happening right now. Thoughts say there is an 'I' who is in control and I must take responsibility for decisions made, but there is no choice and there is no 'me', only experience of what is happening in this moment.
6) Anything to add?
Not at present.

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Re: Clarity

Postby Ronaldo » Thu Apr 08, 2021 3:59 pm

Dear Nicolette,
Other guides have no further questions for you. It has been a genuine pleasure to explore the concept of the separate self with you. Thank you for being so open and willing to look, I enjoyed our dialogue.

Keep an eye out for a PM notification (it will show up next to your username) from the forum inviting you to join our aftercare groups on Facebook. Your username has changed from green to blue and soon this thread will be moved to the ‘Archive’ section of the forum, and you will be able to access it with the same link as your thread.

Keep in mind that this is a beginning of a life long deepening, or rather loss of deeper and deeper beliefs.

You can contact me later and I can point you to some further investigations.
I'll see you on the other side 😌

With love
Ron
The truth is simple. If it was complicated, everyone would understand it. ~Walt Whitman
Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real ~Niels Bohr

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Re: Clarity

Postby Nicolette » Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:21 pm

Dearest Ron,
Wow, thank you so much for your loving and warm guidance! You have been most kind in your guidance and fun during this process. Being guided by you made all the difference in the world, and having to do homework everyday kept me looking. I really appreciate your time and effort and thanks to other guides as well for your selfless giving.🌹

I'm looking forward to a deepening and am grateful for any pointers along the way from yourself and the aftercare group. There is no stopping now whatever it takes and I will take you up on further investigation. Yes, see you on the other side.

Bless you and I send you a great, big, hug.😄

With love
Nicolette

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Re: Clarity

Postby Ronaldo » Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:54 pm

Dear Nicolette,
Thank you for your kind words, this is much appreciated.
much love to you ❤️️
Ron
The truth is simple. If it was complicated, everyone would understand it. ~Walt Whitman
Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real ~Niels Bohr


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