ITTR

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Hannah B-T
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Re: ITTR

Postby Hannah B-T » Sun Apr 16, 2017 12:24 pm

Yes. This begins to sink in...It's is actually tragic how much energy and time is wasted when believing in erratic mind and thoughts, trying to protect illusion. Feeling sad about all those years or even decades...
Yes, this 'grieving' almost can come up. That is ok, but do question if anything really has been lost here?
When it was found out that Santa/batman/the easter bunny weren't real, this same reaction may have come up, but then it sinks in that these things are now just as real as they always were (i.e make believe) and nothing was actually lost in seeing that clearly.
Also looking back, could any of that have been different?
There are no concepts found in DE (except in contents of thoughts).
The content of thoughts as we use the model here by definition isn't D.E.
but there is undeniably a raw experience of thought arising, just like sound, sights etc. Buddhism actually classifys thought as the sixth sense for this reason.
I have always been thinking this is just a state and not necessarily pointing to reality. And thus by default, in daily life, experienced body sensations as subject-object experience without questioning.
Yes. Think of these meditation states as laboratory conditions.
Now we are taking that stuff out into 'field work' and testing if it still works.
But in this moment, when typing and fingers feels cold, looking at that, concentrating on coldness alone, raw sensation is still there. On the other hand, in subject-object experience there are always thoughts and/or images about body part/location.
Fantastic looking here. Yes 4 years on I am still exploring this stuff. It is fascinating to continue to explore what is the raw sensation/experience before images/labelling and story telling about it happens.
That basically is the key to further looking well beyond what we point to on this forum.

Things seem to be shifting at the moment. So lets take 24 hours and I want you to come back and let me know if there are any sticking points, any areas where there is not confidence when looking that a separate self, Chape is not a real inherent entity.

Also any fears or reactions coming up still so we can work through them together.

xx
Are there keys in your pocket? Is the sky blue? Is there an 'i, a self?' LOOK! :)

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Chape
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Re: ITTR

Postby Chape » Mon Apr 17, 2017 4:17 pm

Also looking back, could any of that have been different?
No, you are right. Life goes as it goes. No reason to hold on or investigate past .
Yes. Think of these meditation states as laboratory conditions.
Now we are taking that stuff out into 'field work' and testing if it still works.
Yeah, will try this. Requires probably diligent practise in daily life, but perhaps may pay off in terms of clearer experience.
So lets take 24 hours and I want you to come back and let me know if there are any sticking points, any areas where there is not confidence when looking that a separate self, Chape is not a real inherent entity.
Trying to be reflect on this...Past 3 days and nights this stuff we have been looking at have been present somehow all time including dreams. Being seems to be more relaxed, and when looking at direct experience there is no doubt. Self isn't there in any shape. When thoughts of doubt and fear arises I have found asking "Is this necessary" to be useful. Thanks for the tip, seems to work fine :). Thoughts try to sabotage flow-experience, and this question is a great tool to let them pass.

Yesterday evening listened to Nightwish with headphones with high volume eyes closed. Right from start I realized that it felt different, much bigger than usually - and it grew bigger and bigger until It wasn't listening to music, it was experiencing it. I'm sure you know the difference. Music pervaded all body, from crown to toes. It was so powerful that noticed there was tears in eyes, and began to wonder if they were tears of sadness or tears of delight. This question interrupted experience and asked again: Is this necessary to try to analyze this. Staying in experience was more important. This experiencing of music was somehow similar to state of samatha practise, when burst of piti pervades all the body.

And question about doubt...there have been many thoughts of resistance regarding "no choosing" and "no free will". But they cannot been found in DE, and DE is ultimately all we have. Then when thinking about this again thought: "Is this necessary". It may sound as low effort practise, but enjoying more relaxed feeling of being seems to drive away thoughts of fear and resistance.

Thoughts of fear is primarily doubts like: Is this some kind of passing mind state? No this can't be longlasting. But then thoughts passes away - and focus moves more towards DE.

If perception is shifting or already shifted I'm not sure. And actually it doesn't feel so important to think about that. It seems that story about self/identity is seen as story, nothing more. That huge backpack will not been missed :-)

C

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Hannah B-T
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Re: ITTR

Postby Hannah B-T » Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:35 pm

What a beautiful report, thank you. Things appear to be going just fine, yes, no need to push or pull at anything, the seeing will unfold in it's own time. Just enjoy the ride as it were.
Thoughts of fear is primarily doubts like: Is this some kind of passing mind state? No this can't be longlasting. But then thoughts passes away - and focus moves more towards DE.
This is it. Thoughts will always say 'but'...'but'...but if the default position becomes to check what the current experience itself is saying, you can't go far wrong.
It seems that story about self/identity is seen as story, nothing more. That huge backpack will not been missed :-)
Lovely.

I think now would be a good time to ask the standard questions we use here and see if anything comes out of that, when I get some other guides to take a look. Here are the first 3 questions.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it
works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this
dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
Are there keys in your pocket? Is the sky blue? Is there an 'i, a self?' LOOK! :)

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Chape
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Re: ITTR

Postby Chape » Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:04 am

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
No, just a story of it. There have never been more than that.
Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it
works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
Illusion of separate self is a product of imagination, which start to form from early age when baby starts to understand language and learn to speak. Reasons for illusion are probably language, culture and never ending stream of thoughts which contents are believed to be the ultimate truth as they arise. There is Self and "The others" in thoughts. This forms a story and image of doer and controller of life. As life goes on, more thoughts about self reinforces this story and image, which is just a lie, but it feels so self-evident, that it usually is not questioned at all.

Illusion of separate self is distorted way to perceive life.
How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this
dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
Feeling is more relaxed, relieved but somehow also chaotic as everything is seen in new light. World is just the same but the perception of it is probably changing. Feeling is also excited, as if had just learned to stand teetering, now willing to learn to stand without teetering and then at some point begin to learn to walk. Feeling as if this was a new fresh start of life.

Past days this no-self thing has been present all time in thoughts, emotions and also dreams. Can't stop wondering it...

C

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Hannah B-T
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Re: ITTR

Postby Hannah B-T » Tue Apr 18, 2017 5:17 pm

thank you, here are the rest:


4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things
happen? How does it work? Give examples from recent day to day
experience.

6) Anything to add?
Are there keys in your pocket? Is the sky blue? Is there an 'i, a self?' LOOK! :)

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Chape
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Re: ITTR

Postby Chape » Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:42 pm

What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
Understanding that there are so many mindmade concepts which have nothing to do with DE. Undrestanding that choice, cause-effect and possessing are just concepts among others. Secondly realizing that true nature of sensation is pure sensation, without images and/or thoughts about object/location or owner
Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things
happen? How does it work? Give examples from recent day to day
experience.
All these are just concepts which cannot be experienced. There is no one deciding, intending, or choosing behind these concepts. All these happens automatically without a doer. There is nothing separate what makes things happen. They just happen.

I was observing people at the shopping mall today. All them seemed to do what they are supposed to do, did their thing and moved forward. Observing this stream of people felt a bit like observing sensations in meditation. Sensations arise, "do their thing" and then disappear. So did people - as a part of movement of life - without any separate self or thing controlling movement.
Anything to add?
I know that suffering or happiness are not topics in this forum, but I have been thinking about direct experience in relation to experiencing happiness or suffering in life. What makes people experience happiness or suffering? I finally realized that experiencing happiness/suffering is all about DE. And probably that is why money, materialism or power can't make people happy. They are just concepts outside DE. Tons of time and energy is wasted and suffering caused from not realizing this. Though the biggest part of suffering probably comes from "I-illusion". Seems that holding on concepts and believing in them is a major cause of suffering. This feels self-evident and simple now but have never before realized to think about that this way.

C

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Hannah B-T
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Re: ITTR

Postby Hannah B-T » Wed Apr 19, 2017 2:18 pm

Thank you for your answers and reflections. I will see if any other guides have further questions. This can take 24-48hrs so bear with us.
Are there keys in your pocket? Is the sky blue? Is there an 'i, a self?' LOOK! :)

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Hannah B-T
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Re: ITTR

Postby Hannah B-T » Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:46 pm

No further questions! Welcome to LU- I will send you a PM with further details.

One of the guides asked me to mention to you a pitfall of 'direct experience' becoming a new belief system in itself rather than just a useful tool for inquiry. Eventually even perceptual experience can and does end up being investigated and deconstructed in certain ways, but there is no rush for that. It's fine to let the tool of simply seeing the difference between thought content and perception take things as far as it can (which is pretty far!).

x
Are there keys in your pocket? Is the sky blue? Is there an 'i, a self?' LOOK! :)

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Chape
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Re: ITTR

Postby Chape » Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:35 am

-
Heartfelt thank you Hannah. So generous and important work you are doing here. I have not words to express my gratitude.
pitfall of 'direct experience' becoming a new belief system in itself rather than just a useful tool for inquiry.
I will keep this pitfall in mind and keep on investigating. You pointed me this powerful tool, so it will certainly be used now to dig deeper.

Will check PM

Love

C


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