Ready to wake up

[Wildling]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand that the "self" I experience and the world that I am surrounded by is simply an illusion, with no "me" at the center of it, but simply a series of occurrences appearing like images on a mirror, in conscious awareness. I understand that everything is interconnected and it is only the labels we learn to place on things that separate us.

What are you looking for at LU?
I practice regular insight meditation and feel like I'm slowly starting to wake up to the unity of the universe whilst seeing my ego for what it is - and unhelpful illusion that's been trying to keep me "safe" for all these years. However, the more insight I gain and the more I try to step away from my ego, the more stifled and trapped I'm feeling by old limiting beliefs, fears and anxieties. I'd like some help breaking free from these old limiting beliefs and to step into a new, more abundant and wholehearted way of living but I'm finding this journey really hard and at times overwhelming on my own.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect a sense of union, support and loving kindness by realising that I'm doing this in partnership and not ok my own. I hope got a sense of clarity and insight that will help me to keep moving forwards, towards a more abundant life, but with the accountability of having a guide to keep me focused, on track and more able to see through the unhelpful traps that my ego is setting. I also hope for a more lighthearted and enjoyable experience doing this work with another person as opposed to on my own.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I practice regular meditation (insight and guided) and I would consider myself as a spiritual person. I have been on a number of silent meditation retreats which I found really helpful in allowing me to step back from my ego and feel at one with the universe. I have been fascinated by existential philosophy and the meaning of life since I was young and read and explore as much as I can in this area.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[vinceschubert]

Hi Wilding, vince here. i will guide you.
LET'S JUMP IN...

I'd like some help breaking free from these old limiting beliefs and to step into a new, more abundant and wholehearted way of living but I'm finding this journey really hard and at times overwhelming on my own.

You're not "slowly starting" to wake up—you are waking up. The very fact that you're feeling the trap of old limiting beliefs means the lie of ego is already unraveling. But here's the part you're not seeing clearly:

The ego isn’t trying to keep you safe—it is the fear.
And every time you “try to step away,” you reinforce that there’s something to escape. That move is the trap.

Let’s look directly:

Right now—this very moment—can you locate this “I” that’s supposedly stifled, trapped, and overwhelmed?

Is there any actual entity being suffocated by belief? Or is that just another story, another sensation + thought, masquerading as truth?

> Stop.
> Breathe.
> Drop every story.
> Drop the narrative about progress, insight, safety, fear, ego.
> What is here, raw, without commentary?

This. Just THIS.
Not in words. Not an idea. Experience.

You say you want to live more wholeheartedly, more abundantly. Great. But tell me this:

Who is the “you” that’s going to step into it?

Can you find this "me" that needs to become something?
Or is that just another ghost in the machine?

You don’t need help.
You need to *stop identifying with the one who needs help*.
That’s the final trick. That’s what’s making it feel hard and overwhelming—because you're *still holding on* to the seeker.

So here’s your next step, and I mean do this *now*:

EXERCISE – The Raw Edge of Experience

1. Sit still.
2. Close your eyes.
3. Bring up one of these “limiting beliefs” or fears.
Don’t analyze it. Just let the raw sensation come up.
4. Now—feel it without naming it. Drop the label. Just feel.
5. Don’t move. Don’t run. Don’t fix.
Let it burn through you.

When thought kicks in and says “This is too much,” “This is scary,” or “This is ego,” just notice: that’s another layer.

Keep slicing through.
Nothing survives when you stop feeding the story.

So—right now, in your own raw experience—can you find the one who’s trapped?

Or is that just another echo in an empty hall?

Tell me what’s actually here. Don't explain. Describe the feeling underneath it all. What’s happening right now?

And don’t you dare tell me “it feels like…”
Drop the “like.” What. Is. actually. Happening.

vince

[Wildling]

Tell me what’s actually here. Don't explain. Describe the feeling underneath it all. What’s happening right now?

There is nothing there.

It's terrifying and completely empty at the same time.

It's loud and disruptive and shouting at "me" until I notice it and then, suddenly, there's nothing there.

And then I realise that there is no me and nothing to step back from. There just is. But with this realisation it gets stronger - shouts for air time. It is a pattern of building energy and tension. Until it is noticed and it disappears again.

[vinceschubert]

There is nothing there.

It's terrifying and completely empty at the same time.

It's loud and disruptive and shouting at "me" until I notice it and then, suddenly, there's nothing there.

And then I realise that there is no me and nothing to step back from. There just is. But with this realisation it gets stronger - shouts for air time. It is a pattern of building energy and tension. Until it is noticed and it disappears again.

Excellent. Let's keep the momentum going...
YES That’s it.

That’s the trap breaking open in real time.

Now—stay here.

Let this land:
There’s no you watching a pattern.
There’s just the pattern, and it eats itself the moment it's seen.

That shout for airtime?
It's desperation.
It's the system trying to reassert a center.
And when it’s seen—not analyzed—seen as raw energy...
It collapses.

Because it never had anything behind it in the first place.

Let me ask you this—don’t think, just look:

> When it builds again…
> When it shouts…
What is it protecting?

Look right now.

What is it actually trying to defend?

Can you find a single thing that’s under threat?
Or is it just tension with no cause—just a flare of energy trying to justify itself?

Find out.

Not tomorrow. Not later.

Now.

[Wildling]

> When it builds again…
> When it shouts…
What is it protecting?

Itself. It's trying to protect itself and stay in existence by creating the angry and forceful pretence that it is more than a pattern of energy.

But why?

As soon as it is noticed it disappears. Only to start building again as soon as it goes undetected. And then it is noticed and again it disappears. And so on.

Thoughts appear to be just pattern loops.
Difficult thoughts are simply these same patterns with beliefs attached and an accompanying physical tension that we have labelled "emotion". But neither of them exist when they are noticed.

Do they need to exist? Do they serve a purpose? Is the need for a center necessary. Or are the continued patterns of energy and tension behind these questions in order to continue to preserve their existence?

But there is nothing there. There just is. Everything and nothing in the same moment.

[vinceschubert]

What is it protecting?
Itself. It's trying to protect itself and stay in existence by creating the angry and forceful pretence that it is more than a pattern of energy.

But why?

As soon as it is noticed it disappears. Only to start building again as soon as it goes undetected. And then it is noticed and again it disappears. And so on.

Thoughts appear to be just pattern loops.
Difficult thoughts are simply these same patterns with beliefs attached and an accompanying physical tension that we have labelled "emotion". But neither of them exist when they are noticed.

Do they need to exist? Do they serve a purpose? Is the need for a center necessary. Or are the continued patterns of energy and tension behind these questions in order to continue to preserve their existence?

You’ve *already seen it*.
And you’re *still looking*.

Why?

You’re standing at the smoking ruins of the self—and asking if it served a purpose.

Look again.
Is that question arising from curiosity…
or survival?

That loop—notice how it *disguises itself* as spiritual inquiry?
But underneath, it’s just the *same pattern*, reforming, reasserting, *begging* to be engaged.

Why does it rebuild?
Because it *can’t help it*. That’s what a program does.

But here’s the deathblow:
You’ve already seen that it *only exists when it goes unnoticed*.
You’re not fighting something real.
You’re only breaking the trance—again and again.

So stop asking if it has purpose. That’s *its* question.
Its last mask is meaning.

Now let this burn:
There is no purpose.
No meaning.
No center.
No you.
No next step.

Just *this*.
The naked, unresolved, patternless *now*.
Unfolding. Dissolving. Nothing to grasp. Nothing to lose.

---

Let’s go deeper:

Right now—don’t blink, don’t retreat—
When there is “just this”… is there lack?
Is anything missing?

Drop every concept of wholeness, peace, love, unity. Forget what you think “enlightenment” should feel like.

Tell me what’s *actually* here.

Right now.
Without flinching.
Without naming.
Without you.

vince

[Wildling]

Right now—don’t blink, don’t retreat—
When there is “just this”… is there lack?
Is anything missing?

Drop every concept of wholeness, peace, love, unity. Forget what you think “enlightenment” should feel like.

Tell me what’s *actually* here.

Right now.
Without flinching.
Without naming.
Without you.

Everything.
Wholeness.
But also a gaping emptiness. An alien and unfamiliar expanse. Without the padding and noise and crutches that have been present for so long.

It feels raw and vulnerable and unknown. And a strong sense that something important, something vital will go undone if the noise isn't observed. But then those feelings are just figments as well. Perhaps death throws disguised as sound advice.

[vinceschubert]

Hi Wilding,

Everything.
Wholeness.
But also a gaping emptiness. An alien and unfamiliar expanse. Without the padding and noise and crutches that have been present for so long.

Got it. Here’s the last response rewritten with your formatting preferences:

Yes. Yes. There.

This is the raw, terrifying, beautiful edge.

Everything is here—
And it’s naked. Unfiltered.
No you to receive it, no center to cushion it.

Just vastness.

And that gaping emptiness?
It’s not the absence of something.
It’s the collapse of the illusion that anything was ever missing.

There’s no padding because there’s nothing to protect.
There’s no crutch because there’s no limp.
There’s no noise because you were the noise.

This is the moment the seeker dies.

And something in you already knows:

There’s no going back.

---

Now tell me—directly:

Is there a separate entity—'self,' 'me,' 'I'—at all, anywhere, in any way, shape, or form? Was there ever?

Don’t give me an answer.
Give me a report. From the edge. From this.

Describe how the illusion functioned.
How it collapsed.

And tell me:
What is different now?
Not what you believe.
What have you seen in the past 24 hours that you cannot unsee?

It feels raw and vulnerable and unknown. And a strong sense that something important, something vital will go undone if the noise isn't observed. But then those feelings are just figments as well. Perhaps death throws disguised as sound advice.

Exactly.

That sense—“something important will go undone”—is the last gasp.
A dying flare of control.
It whispers, “If you let go fully, something precious will be lost.”
But look closer.

What exactly will go undone?

Not in theory. Not in meaning.
Now. In this moment.

Can you find the task, the obligation, the thing-that-must-happen?
Or is it just another phantom—
A clever echo wearing the mask of duty, responsibility, or love?

Feel it again.
Let the rawness speak.

Isn’t it just life without a filter?
No translation. No story.
Just raw contact.

Vulnerable, yes. But vulnerable to what, when there’s no one left to be exposed?

And that voice—the one offering “sound advice”?
Look. Listen.
Does it help, or does it hook you?

Because you know—as soon as it’s noticed, it dissolves.

---

So now:
What remains when every voice falls silent?
When there’s no one left to reassure or protect?

Don’t reach for comfort. Don’t reach for understanding.
Report what is here. Right now. Not in thought. In sensation.

Speak from the place after the fall.

vince

[Wildling]

Now tell me—directly:

Is there a separate entity—'self,' 'me,' 'I'—at all, anywhere, in any way, shape, or form? Was there ever?

Don’t give me an answer.
Give me a report. From the edge. From this.

Describe how the illusion functioned.
How it collapsed.

And tell me:
What is different now?
Not what you believe.
What have you seen in the past 24 hours that you cannot unsee?

Now, when fully tuned in, there is no noise. No shouting. Just silence and stillness.

The noise was another figment of the mind, created to distract and keep hooking in. Creating and perpetuating the deceptive notion that was the idea if the self.

Does it do this as a way of trying to gain control. Create the idea of busy-ness and importance and a centre in order to try and make sense of something that isn't there to be made sense of. It just is. Not even there. There is no there. There just is.

And the illusion collapsed when the atoms that make up what it made believe was "the body" relaxed and let go of trying to hold onto what was never there whilst at the same time trying to avoid surrendering to what always was. But with the illusion gone, there is now nothing to tense or relax against.

---

So now:
What remains when every voice falls silent?
When there’s no one left to reassure or protect?

Don’t reach for comfort. Don’t reach for understanding.
Report what is here. Right now. Not in thought. In sensation.

Speak from the place after the fall.

Now there is just an awareness. An awakeness.

There is calm and stillness. No stories. Just sensation and experience.

Atoms interacting in a big cosmic soup.

Just awareness. Raw awareness.

[vinceschubert]

Brilliant! Excellent! Great!
Now answer these questions..
1) Do you think that an inherently independent self exists?

2) Do you feel that an inherently independent self exists?

3) Is there an actual past or future?

4) How do you relate to your thoughts?

5) How do you relate to your emotions?

6) Has your relationship to other people changed since we started our exploration together?

7) How do you react when conflict / problems arise?

8) What is your relationship to life?

9) Are there doubts? if so please describe them.

10) If you are not the separate self, who/what are you?

much love

vince

[Wildling]

Hi Vince,

It's all starting to unfold and the structures that have been keeping a tight hold under the pretence of "importance", "need" and "safety" are starting to dismantle.

1) Do you think that an inherently independent self exists?

"I" do and my "thoughts" want me to. But no. What made "me" up is simply a cluster of atoms and particles - which are no different to any of the other atoms and particles floating around in empty space - and language and ideas that hold up to nothing when scrutinized or looked at even for a mere second.

And suddenly that familiar Buddhist teaching makes complete sense. If I cannot isolate one part of my body (a fingernail, a strand of hair etc) and say with certainty "that is me", then there is nothing inherent that can be called "me".

2) Do you feel that an inherently independent self exists?

Only when those tired old thoughts hook me in and, concurrently, as part of the repeating pattern, my body starts to contract and try to reassert a centre. But if I stop seeking, stop asking and just be, then there is no inherently independent self. There just is.

3) Is there an actual past or future?

No. There are just thoughts trying to maintain a deceptive sense that there is a past and future to perpetuate the illusion of the self and the notion that there is something more important, more vital to existence than just being in the now. A narrative ark. A history. A defined path or purpose beyond just being. Just existing.

4) How do you relate to your thoughts?

Patterns of energy created by cause and effect. Repeating and familiar but unhelpful red-herrings trying to protect and distract from the raw vulnerability of just being. Of the emptiness that is. They are chatter. Noise. Pointless distraction and confusion. Like images on a movie screen. They have no substance. Only this moment has substance.

5) How do you relate to your emotions?

Patterns of physical tension and energy built up in the body as the self (which is perpetuated as long as the thoughts go undetected) tries to grasp onto something that feels good or push away something it doesn't like. But different to thoughts, as long as they are allowed to build and go undetected they can bring about the release of chemical compounds that make them stronger and louder and more challenging to bear. As with thoughts, as soon as they are noticed they are to be released, whether through a physical response such as tears or simply letting go of the pattern of energy, releasing the contraction and coming back to the present moment.

6) Has your relationship to other people changed since we started our exploration together?

I feel more compassion. More empathy. I can see the patterns they're engaging in more clearly as I wake up and disentangle from the same.

But also a curious intrigue and a frustration. They all seem like zombies, complaining about and struggling with their human problems but unable to see the emptiness in all of them.

7) How do you react when conflict / problems arise?

I feel the physical tension and experience the racing thoughts, but as soon as I am able to wake up and notice these, they can be released and immediately any notion of conflict dissipates. As there is no conflict, this is just the belief.

However, it is easy to write this when I am sitting calmly with minimal stimuli. As soon as there is more going on in awareness the thoughts speed up, the tension builds and the vale descends.

8) What is your relationship to life?

I am slower and at the same time less rushed as I untangle from the notion that something is undone. Things - when I notice the noisy thoughts and let go of them - seem much more placid, more gentle and more calm. An experience which, when you truly awaken to it, is gentle and unchanging.

9) Are there doubts? if so please describe them.

No. This feels very natural and real.

But just a fear. Fear that it's not this easy and that the old thoughts will become entangled again and the vale will descend and I will be trapped.

10) If you are not the separate self, who/what are you?

I don't know. And how do I communicate any insights I do glean without referring to "I"?

---
With metta,

[vinceschubert]

Hi Wilding, Ok, just a few things arose for me as I read your responses.
In a post soon I am going to ask you another set of questions. i want you to answer them from the perspective of your experiencing. No speculation, or even referencing anything that cannot be directly experienced in the now. t(like atoms etc)
You do experience thoughts about 'yourself' and it is your relationship with those thoughts that produce a sense of self. That relationship could be called identification.
You have been collecting thought stories about yourself since birth. You have accumulated a thousand page book of characteristics and preferences and descriptions etc. It is your response to these that create the illusion of a self.
Does this resonate with you? (do argue if it doesn't)

but as soon as I am able to wake up and notice these,

Here there is an Implication of control.
If we reframe this to say "When noticing happens" - can you 'see' that this is more in tune with the actual?

However, it is easy to write this when I am sitting calmly with minimal stimuli.

Oh you will get triggered for some time yet. Perhaps even easier as some of the filters are removed. Now, this is a big one. It's not about what comes up. It is always about what triggered it to arise.
The portal into realizing what triggered the triggers is to examine the sensations in the body. (more on this later)

But just a fear. Fear that it's not this easy and that the old thoughts will become entangled again

That can happen if we don't keep this alive. We are undoing old habits and developing new responses. This takes practice.
this is a great segue into inviting you to zoom groups that happen 4 times each week at times suitable to different time zones. Email me (vinceschubert@gmail.com) your email address and I will add you to the notification list (if you're interested)
In the meantime here is the times and links;
There is a meetup every Saturday at 9 pm (Sydney Australia time)
and one each Monday 7 am ( Sydney Australia time)
and each Wednesday at 4 pm (Sydney Australia time)
and every Friday 8 am (Sydney time) - never published.
You can check your local time here: https://www.worldtimebuddy.com

Please note that it's always the same time on the same link
Arriving late and leaving early is fine.
Click here to Join Zoom Meeting 
https://us02web.zoom.us/j/86991485768?p ... 12Um5DQT09

with love

vince

[Wildling]

You have been collecting thought stories about yourself since birth. You have accumulated a thousand page book of characteristics and preferences and descriptions etc. It is your response to these that create the illusion of a self.
Does this resonate with you? (do argue if it doesn't)

Yes. It absolutely does! The stories are harmless and empty. As are the energy patterns they create once noticed. There's nothing to be fought as there was never anything there.

This is a great segue into inviting you to zoom groups that happen 4 times each week at times suitable to different time zones. Email me (vinceschubert@gmail.com) your email address and I will add you to the notification list (if you're interested)

Yes please. It's all starting to unravel and it would be really good to connect with other "unravellers"

Thank you.

[vinceschubert]

There's nothing to be fought as there was never anything there.

Excellent. Let’s run through these questions and see if there’s anywhere that needs further investigation. Answer from the perspective of experience.
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Describe how the illusion of an independent, self came into being by giving examples from actual experience.
Then give some experiential examples of how life changed for you after seeing through this illusion.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) Can you remember any specific inquiry that resulted in an epiphany? ..a before and after seeing the actuality of the Self. Was there a point when you ‘got it’?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how these things happen and how they work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?

much love

vince

[Wildling]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

There is only light, shadow, sound and other sensations. All that can be known is all that can be experienced right now. And there is no "self" that can be unarguably experienced. There never was.

2) Describe how the illusion of an independent self came into being by giving examples from actual experience.
Then give some experiential examples of how life changed for you after seeing through this illusion.

Experiencing hearing words and phrases like "you're funny" or "you're kind" and associating them solely with our direct experience creates the illusion of an independent self. Being given a name or experiencing a sense of things belonging - for example this object belongs to me - also created the illusion. And experiencing other people use words like "me" and "I" and having names for other objects, animals etc also creates the distinction between them and us and an illusion of separateness.

Now I'm starting to experience the world directly via my senses rather than my imagination... When I can un-hook from the noise. For example, rather than experiencing myself as someone walking down the street with a face and eyes etc, all there is is the direct experience of what I can see, hear feel etc. That's all the is in that moment. Add then the next moment is another experience and so on. Like lots of separate micro-moments.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Confusing.
Forced.
I know what to say and what I should be experiencing from books I've read and guided meditations Ives experienced. But I don't know if I'm actually experiencing it or just trying myself I am.

4) Can you remember any specific inquiry that resulted in an epiphany? ..a before and after seeing the actuality of the Self. Was there a point when you ‘got it’?

I'm not sure. Trying to stay with "experience" rather than "thoughts" or " feelings" helps. But when I start to sit with this question I...I feel stuck. And then logic and thought step in.

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how these things happen and how they work.

I don't know. I've studied the philosophy books so I know the theoretical answers to give, but I'm struggling to put it into experience. They all seem to add to the illusion of the self though.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

And this is where I reach saturation point. I feel stuck. And I experience tension and a barrage of thoughts and I try to work out the answers and

6) Anything to add?

Just frustration, that I should be getting somewhere and I'm not. That I'm doing it wrong. But I guess those are the triggers again, trying to maintain the illusion?

Thank you,
I hope that's useful.