LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That what we consider to be 'me' or the 'doer/seer' does not in reality exist but is rather an illusory actor generated and reinforced by ignorance, false beliefs, societal/cultural upbringing etc. The root cause of suffering is the belief that we are individual entities/'subjects', separated from the 'objects' outside of us.
What are you looking for at LU?
I experienced an initial profound insight almost 10 years ago, but I had no support or guidance at the time and the ego and personality construct eventually returned and I lost my way on the path for some time. Recently I have deepened my understanding, and feel a rising anticipation of a coming change, but feel unable to stay focused on the necessary inquiry.
What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I am not entirely sure, but I hope to at least be motivated to continue my inquiry with some regularity and intensity, and be redirected in the right direction when I stray, when I get confused or become deluded in any way.
What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
20+ years of irregular meditation, traditional yoga, non-dual study, advaita, zen, etc. I have never studied/practiced over an extended period of time with a teacher outside of yoga, although I attended a vipassana 10 day retreat. As mentioned before, I had what I considered to be something like a 'kensho' experience nearly 10 years ago. If I remember correctly I was listening to Francis Lucille speak and suddenly I felt my 'self' begin to die, or dissolve, quite suddenly. I experienced a lot of fear and resisted at the end, somehow stopping short of 'completing the experience', but I seemed to have stopped in a state where I was completely understanding of the fact that I did not exist in the way I thought I had, and that everything that was happening was happening without 'my' involvement and always had, and that every action I performed unfolded without the involvement of any 'one'. In any case, for about 1 week I was left in a pleasant state of expansive awareness, although I was kind of disorientated and struggled with some normal activities. Once I remembered who I had been, I started to reconstruct the ego, so to speak. I was unable to integrate or deepen the experience and so I think out of fear 'I' retreated from it.
On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10
Ready to Finish The Job
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vinceschubert
- Posts: 5624
- Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:02 am
- Location: Australia
- Contact:
Re: Ready to Finish The Job
Hey TD, vince here. i will help you with this enquiry.
The first thing is we are not looking to re-establish that pleasant state of expansive awareness. You may experience a new version of it, but we are not chasing it.
You have two things going for you. 1. that experience & 2. an intellectual understanding of the illusion of a self.
Now - forget those things and everything that you have learned.
What we are going to discover is how that ego reconstruction occurred.
You’re not new. You’ve seen the illusion fracture. You even watched yourself rebuild the prison.
Now let’s stop pretending.
You say “fear stopped me.”
Let’s name it.
Right now—what is fear?
Drop the label. Drop the story. Drop what you think fear is.
Where is it?
What does it actually feel like?
What makes it “fear” and not just raw sensation?
Look closely. Don't flinch.
And notice: does a self feel the fear—or is that just another story about fear?
You said:
> “I understood I did not exist in the way I thought I had.”
That sentence is poison. That’s how the ego rebuilt itself. Not through denial—but through conceptualization. You made the mystery into an “understanding.” Into an event. Something past. Something to revisit or deepen. That’s the trap.
So I’m asking plainly, right now:
Is there a ‘you’ at the center of experience in any way, shape, or form?
Find it.
Not the idea of it. Not the narrative of retreating.
Is there an entity here that experiences, chooses, or controls?
Where is it?
Don’t think. Report from the trenches.
And stay with it. Do not tell me more stories until you looked directly and tell me exactly what’s there—and what’s missing.
vince
The first thing is we are not looking to re-establish that pleasant state of expansive awareness. You may experience a new version of it, but we are not chasing it.
You have two things going for you. 1. that experience & 2. an intellectual understanding of the illusion of a self.
Now - forget those things and everything that you have learned.
What we are going to discover is how that ego reconstruction occurred.
You’re not new. You’ve seen the illusion fracture. You even watched yourself rebuild the prison.
Now let’s stop pretending.
You say “fear stopped me.”
Let’s name it.
Right now—what is fear?
Drop the label. Drop the story. Drop what you think fear is.
Where is it?
What does it actually feel like?
What makes it “fear” and not just raw sensation?
Look closely. Don't flinch.
And notice: does a self feel the fear—or is that just another story about fear?
You said:
> “I understood I did not exist in the way I thought I had.”
That sentence is poison. That’s how the ego rebuilt itself. Not through denial—but through conceptualization. You made the mystery into an “understanding.” Into an event. Something past. Something to revisit or deepen. That’s the trap.
So I’m asking plainly, right now:
Is there a ‘you’ at the center of experience in any way, shape, or form?
Find it.
Not the idea of it. Not the narrative of retreating.
Is there an entity here that experiences, chooses, or controls?
Where is it?
Don’t think. Report from the trenches.
And stay with it. Do not tell me more stories until you looked directly and tell me exactly what’s there—and what’s missing.
vince
Re: Ready to Finish The Job
Hello Vince, thank you deeply for taking the time to help me.
You asked me not to tell any more stories, but in the 10 days since I applied for the guidance here I had another experience. I seemed to have been ripe. It lasted a few days, I will spare you the details, In any case, I became again embroiled in the stories of the self. There was some interpersonal conflict and then physical sickness, it drew me away so strongly....back into suffering.
You said:
You say “fear stopped me.”
Let’s name it.
Right now—what is fear?
That first experience was 10 years ago. I cannot observe, right now, what that fear was, but if I compare it to what I know now, or with another feeling like anticipation or annoyance, anxiety or anger, then I would say it is a primarily a bodily sensation, a kind of contraction.
You ask:
Is there a ‘you’ at the center of experience in any way, shape, or form?
- Everything in my awareness is one of these things. Thought/memory, shape, form, bodily sensation, sound etc, and I can identify intellectually with the awareness that is aware of them and see the rest as 'not my true self',
...but the doubt always remains, in two parts:
1. I ultimately AM a separate self, Those thoughts and bodily sensations DO constitute a separate self and is a valid self, worthy of protection. Why not?
2. The freedom I was abiding in for several days recently was simply a kind of 'hack' or 'trick' that I managed to pull off with some kind of philosophical gymnastics.
You asked:
Is there an entity here that experiences, chooses, or controls?
- Maybe. Maybe the entity, this person who thinks and feels and acts is emergent from the feelings and thoughts, etc. As valid as the software that emerges from the ones and zeros.
I have been inside the truth of it, but my mind, my ego can't help playing devils advocate regarding the truth.
A few days ago all of this was completely clear. I had no doubts. I laughed because I could see I had just spent 40 years suffering non-stop for no reason!
And then it was gone, just a memory.
Yesterday your words stuck me powerfully . YOU ARE NOT NEW.
Yes! I know! Nothing changed in me fundamentally between the state of freedom and the state of entrapment! But I'm stuck again in the belief that I exist!
You asked me not to tell any more stories, but in the 10 days since I applied for the guidance here I had another experience. I seemed to have been ripe. It lasted a few days, I will spare you the details, In any case, I became again embroiled in the stories of the self. There was some interpersonal conflict and then physical sickness, it drew me away so strongly....back into suffering.
You said:
You say “fear stopped me.”
Let’s name it.
Right now—what is fear?
That first experience was 10 years ago. I cannot observe, right now, what that fear was, but if I compare it to what I know now, or with another feeling like anticipation or annoyance, anxiety or anger, then I would say it is a primarily a bodily sensation, a kind of contraction.
You ask:
Is there a ‘you’ at the center of experience in any way, shape, or form?
- Everything in my awareness is one of these things. Thought/memory, shape, form, bodily sensation, sound etc, and I can identify intellectually with the awareness that is aware of them and see the rest as 'not my true self',
...but the doubt always remains, in two parts:
1. I ultimately AM a separate self, Those thoughts and bodily sensations DO constitute a separate self and is a valid self, worthy of protection. Why not?
2. The freedom I was abiding in for several days recently was simply a kind of 'hack' or 'trick' that I managed to pull off with some kind of philosophical gymnastics.
You asked:
Is there an entity here that experiences, chooses, or controls?
- Maybe. Maybe the entity, this person who thinks and feels and acts is emergent from the feelings and thoughts, etc. As valid as the software that emerges from the ones and zeros.
I have been inside the truth of it, but my mind, my ego can't help playing devils advocate regarding the truth.
A few days ago all of this was completely clear. I had no doubts. I laughed because I could see I had just spent 40 years suffering non-stop for no reason!
And then it was gone, just a memory.
Yesterday your words stuck me powerfully . YOU ARE NOT NEW.
Yes! I know! Nothing changed in me fundamentally between the state of freedom and the state of entrapment! But I'm stuck again in the belief that I exist!
-
vinceschubert
- Posts: 5624
- Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:02 am
- Location: Australia
- Contact:
Re: Ready to Finish The Job
Hi TD,
You came in with experience—decades of seeking, glimpses of freedom, and the memory of falling back into identification.
You pointed to:
- A deep experience of no-self 10 years ago.
- A recent period of freedom and clarity.
- The return of doubt, fear, identity, and suffering.
- A persistent belief: “Maybe I am a self.”
- A fear that your freedom was just a trick.
We stripped it all down. Here's what we uncovered:
1. Fear is not personal. It’s bodily contraction + thought. Without the label, it’s just sensation.
2. The “mind” or “ego” doesn’t do anything. There is no thinker of thoughts, no controller of choices, no self orchestrating experience.
3. The identity of “I am awareness” is still a mask. It’s just a more spiritual version of the false self.
4. All doubt depends on a belief in a separate self. When you look directly, that self is never found—only thoughts *about* a self.
5. The memory of awakening is not awakening. The claim “It’s gone” is just another thought arising in what never left.
6. Nothing was ever lost. The ordinary, quiet, raw mess right now *is* it. No special state, no bliss required.
7. There is no shift necessary. You don’t need to break through. You just need to stop grasping at the story that says you’re not there yet.
8. The belief “I exist” is just a thought. It carries sensation, yes—but the “self” it points to is never found.
And the final blow:
The thought “I’m stuck again” is itself the veil.
When that’s let go of, nothing is missing.
And nothing ever was.
There is no self. There never was.
This is it. Ordinary. Raw. Unchanging.
No escape. No arrival. Just this.
Now—what could possibly be added?
vince
You came in with experience—decades of seeking, glimpses of freedom, and the memory of falling back into identification.
You pointed to:
- A deep experience of no-self 10 years ago.
- A recent period of freedom and clarity.
- The return of doubt, fear, identity, and suffering.
- A persistent belief: “Maybe I am a self.”
- A fear that your freedom was just a trick.
We stripped it all down. Here's what we uncovered:
1. Fear is not personal. It’s bodily contraction + thought. Without the label, it’s just sensation.
2. The “mind” or “ego” doesn’t do anything. There is no thinker of thoughts, no controller of choices, no self orchestrating experience.
3. The identity of “I am awareness” is still a mask. It’s just a more spiritual version of the false self.
4. All doubt depends on a belief in a separate self. When you look directly, that self is never found—only thoughts *about* a self.
5. The memory of awakening is not awakening. The claim “It’s gone” is just another thought arising in what never left.
6. Nothing was ever lost. The ordinary, quiet, raw mess right now *is* it. No special state, no bliss required.
7. There is no shift necessary. You don’t need to break through. You just need to stop grasping at the story that says you’re not there yet.
8. The belief “I exist” is just a thought. It carries sensation, yes—but the “self” it points to is never found.
And the final blow:
The thought “I’m stuck again” is itself the veil.
When that’s let go of, nothing is missing.
And nothing ever was.
There is no self. There never was.
This is it. Ordinary. Raw. Unchanging.
No escape. No arrival. Just this.
Now—what could possibly be added?
vince
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