Here we go

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FranD
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Re: Here we go

Postby FranD » Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:58 pm

I am confused and frustrated about how to respond to you. If I use the word "I" you respond with the same kind of question that I'm having trouble with. You said if I had trouble to discuss it here. Can you help in some other way?
Fran

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warissem
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Re: Here we go

Postby warissem » Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:32 pm

Hi Fran

There is no worry to use the word "I". I want to know where you are at, about this nonduality staff.

For that, I want an answer to this question based on certainty. The answer must be a conviction for you.

Is there a separate self, a you, in any shape or form ? Please elaborate your answer.

Thank you

Warissem

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FranD
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Re: Here we go

Postby FranD » Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:08 pm

Hi Fran

There is no worry to use the word "I". I want to know where you are at, about this nonduality staff.

For that, I want an answer to this question based on certainty. The answer must be a conviction for you.

Is there a separate self, a you, in any shape or form ? Please elaborate your answer.

Thank you

Warissem
As I said before, I know from experience - bothy meditation and occasional waking experiences - that there is no separate, unchanging "object" at the center of experience called self. No controller, doer. I know that things are not as they are perceived by the senses. They are not separate and unchanging any more than self.

When I look, there is only a flow of changing sights, sounds, touch sensations, smells, tastes and mental arisings. In my experience, mind is the easiest experience of identification, where the sense of self often seems to be located. But I know and experience that the mind is not separate or unchanging, not a thing.

While there are times when I experience these seeming "truths", I don't live there all the time. I often have a "voice in my head". I speak in words that include "I, me, and my" because of a need to to operate in the conventional, commonly agreed upon world with others.

I very much appreciate Buddha's summary in the Bahiya Sutta: "Herein, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: 'In the seen will be merely what is seen; in the heard will be merely what is heard; in the sensed will be merely what is sensed; in the cognized will be merely what is cognized.' In this way you should train yourself, Bahiya. "When, Bahiya, for you in the seen is merely what is seen... in the cognized is merely what is cognized, then, Bahiya, you will not be 'with that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'with that,' then, Bahiya, you will not be 'in that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'in that,' then, Bahiya, you will be neither here nor beyond nor in between the two. Just this is the end of suffering." Buddha says "train" yourself, which suggests deliberate mental activity to bring awareness more and more into the recognitions he lists. Mental training. Isn't direct inquiry and pointing a method of training the attention to experience/ recognize certain things? Isn't this what is being done here?

About this nonduality stuff, this is what I want clearer experience of. Yes, I desire that. I believe it is what is actually happening "underneath" the misperceptions and meaning-making.

That's all for now. By the way, where do you live?
Fran

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warissem
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Re: Here we go

Postby warissem » Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:15 am

Hi Fran

After having read your last post, I see that awakening had already happened. That is, there is knowing of being aware. This forum has its limitations : the goal is to make you see for sure that there is no you, no Fran, no separate self. After having seen that, sure I, me, my, ... continue to pop up as thoughts but you don't believe in them anymore. However, there is still this sense of self, these old reactions and habits, which are still here. It is due to conditioning, old tendencies, ... Now, you want to get rid of the old system of functioning (which is suffering) and function on the basis of the new perspective (no separate self, no me ). If you are at this stage, let me know.

Warissem

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FranD
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Re: Here we go

Postby FranD » Tue Sep 14, 2021 2:20 pm

Hi Warissem,

Yes, that is all correct.

Best,
Fran

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warissem
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Re: Here we go

Postby warissem » Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:27 pm

Hi Fran

Then there is an awakening but you expect something to happen. Why ? The expectation of something to happen (end of suffering, enlightenment or whatever ) is due to your lectures, videos and audios of so called advaita teachers who describe a "state", a stillness, a peace, less thoughts, ... You are projecting these states and it is not your experience. A thought arises : "something is missing". or "this is not for me". Those are thoughts, just see them as thoughts. There is knowing of being aware, isn't it? Just stay firm as this knowing, as this being aware, what do you want next? It is like putting your feet on the mount Everest and you think about higher summits.

It is time to give you the last questions and elaborate a little on them :

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Give in your own words what the illusion of separate self is and how it shows up in experience. Also, through your inquiry, what is different now?

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?

Best wishes

Warissem

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FranD
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Re: Here we go

Postby FranD » Thu Sep 16, 2021 11:02 pm

Hi Fran

Then there is an awakening but you expect something to happen. Why ? The expectation of something to happen (end of suffering, enlightenment or whatever ) is due to your lectures, videos and audios of so called advaita teachers who describe a "state", a stillness, a peace, less thoughts, ... You are projecting these states and it is not your experience. A thought arises : "something is missing". or "this is not for me". Those are thoughts, just see them as thoughts. There is knowing of being aware, isn't it? Just stay firm as this knowing, as this being aware, what do you want next? It is like putting your feet on the mount Everest and you think about higher summits.

It is time to give you the last questions and elaborate a little on them :

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

No, never was.

2) Give in your own words what the illusion of separate self is and how it shows up in experience.

Through conditioning from one's earliest days, and as language and vocabulary expands, one is increasingly living in a world of words and constructs, less and less in direct experience. They also live as if some things are directly related to them - "my car, "my job". I want or don't want ____" There's the sense that "I" make decisions and am in control of myself.

Also, through your inquiry, what is different now? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Thoughts arise, but not as strongly, they don't grip, including judgments, like and dislikes. More time spent in just awareness, seeing the insubstantiality of thoughts and other "things". Greater relaxation. No thoughts of past.. thinking or planning only as needed. Frequent moments during activity of what I call falling back into awareness. Overall sense of well-being. More frequent times of just noticing sights, sounds... More in the present, less in the head. Less reactivity. Whatever the situation, I just respond as needed, unless no response is needed.

Visually seeing things more acutely, as if with a sharper focus. Today - I'm eating, I see the food, the fork, plate, table with sharper vision.... I see the arms and hands as I do the other objects just named - none more "personal" or "me" than the others. Without the usual desire, aversion, doership, ownership, things are just the way they are.

3) How does it feel to see this?

Relaxing, free.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

The inquiries here, listening to a couple interviews with Sachyadhana (Kevin Shanilec); listening to two teachings by a well known Dzogchen master.

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Things happen because of an inestimably long interplay of causes and conditions.
SODA PIE - Streams Of Dependently Arising Phenomena Interacting Eternally :)

Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.
Today, I felt sensations of hunger, an image of a burrito arose, approaching the burrito restaurant I drove in...

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.
In a way there is no me who is "responsible". Things (including me) are happening out of causes and conditions.
A thought answer to this question is that whatever the situation, I respond as needed

6) Anything to add?
Not at this time.

Best wishes

Warissem

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warissem
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Re: Here we go

Postby warissem » Fri Sep 17, 2021 12:15 pm

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?
No, never was.
2) Give in your own words what the illusion of separate self is and how it shows up in experience.
Through conditioning from one's earliest days, and as language and vocabulary expands, one is increasingly living in a world of words and constructs, less and less in direct experience. They also live as if some things are directly related to them - "my car, "my job". I want or don't want ____" There's the sense that "I" make decisions and am in control of myself.
Also, through your inquiry, what is different now? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
Thoughts arise, but not as strongly, they don't grip, including judgments, like and dislikes. More time spent in just awareness, seeing the insubstantiality of thoughts and other "things". Greater relaxation. No thoughts of past.. thinking or planning only as needed. Frequent moments during activity of what I call falling back into awareness. Overall sense of well-being. More frequent times of just noticing sights, sounds... More in the present, less in the head. Less reactivity. Whatever the situation, I just respond as needed, unless no response is needed.

Visually seeing things more acutely, as if with a sharper focus. Today - I'm eating, I see the food, the fork, plate, table with sharper vision.... I see the arms and hands as I do the other objects just named - none more "personal" or "me" than the others. Without the usual desire, aversion, doership, ownership, things are just the way they are.
3) How does it feel to see this?
Relaxing, free.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?
The inquiries here, listening to a couple interviews with Sachyadhana (Kevin Shanilec); listening to two teachings by a well known Dzogchen master.
5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Things happen because of an inestimably long interplay of causes and conditions.
SODA PIE - Streams Of Dependently Arising Phenomena Interacting Eternally :)
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.
Today, I felt sensations of hunger, an image of a burrito arose, approaching the burrito restaurant I drove in...
b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.
In a way there is no me who is "responsible". Things (including me) are happening out of causes and conditions.
A thought answer to this question is that whatever the situation, I respond as needed
6) Anything to add?
Not at this time.

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FranD
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Re: Here we go

Postby FranD » Fri Sep 17, 2021 7:40 pm

Dear Warrisem,
Thank you for re-formating.

Fran

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warissem
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Re: Here we go

Postby warissem » Sat Sep 18, 2021 9:38 am

Hi Fran

A guide wants to know the answers in your own words for this :

5) Describe decision. What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples

Describe intention. What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples

Describe free will. What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples

Describe choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples

Give your answers through direct experience.

Thank you

Warissem

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Chandra4Now
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Re: Here we go

Postby Chandra4Now » Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:17 pm

Hi Fran

A guide wants to know the answers in your own words for this :
5) Describe decision. What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples
It’s a mental process intended to arrive at a conclusion to some question. EG, I have decided to return some things to the store.
Describe intention. What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples
It’s a thought, sometimes with added emotional fuel, to do something. EG, I intend to meditate for 45 minutes today.
Describe free will. What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples
I am able to make my own decisions and chose what I want.
Describe choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples
Choice is a thought that says one can pick one or more options. EG, I choose to go to the gym this morning.
Control is a concept that things can be made to do certain things according to one’s will. I can control what speed I drive the car.

These are all words, concepts trying to explain how/why things happen, trying to believe that "I" possess free will and can control events, that I really exist and am at the center of "my" life. When believed, they lead to more thoughts and stories. More thoughts get involved in the stories, like a dog chasing its tail. Thinking goes round and round...
Give your answers through direct experience.
When looked at, things seem to happen on their own, one thing after another arises and passes without an Intender, Chooser, Decider, or Controller with Free Will. Without a self.

E.G., Yesterday I was planting in the garden. I saw the hands and felt the sensations in the body, doing what they were doing, as if they had a mind of their own, knew just what to do.

EG., I had dinner, felt the textures and tasted the flavors, saw the hands and arms, felt pleasure and gratitude… It was all happening on its own.

EG., Right now, words are coming to mind and fingers are typing them.

Thank you
Warissem
Thank you.

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warissem
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Re: Here we go

Postby warissem » Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:55 pm

Hi Fran

There is still a subject "I" used in your answers. What is this "I" ?

Is there a controller, a decision maker ?

What is reading this questions ? Is Fran giving answers to the questions ?

Are you the decision maker ? When there are a glass of water and a glass of orange juice, you take one of them : how does the choice happen ? Is there Fran choosing ?

Keep looking at direct experience

Warissem

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Chandra4Now
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Re: Here we go

Postby Chandra4Now » Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:26 pm

Hi Fran
There is still a subject "I" used in your answers. What is this "I" ?
It seemed the use of I was cleared up in the series of responses dated September 13. There seemed to be agreement that "I" was OK to use and has a function in communication. You said, "There is no worry to use the word "I". I want to know where you are at, about this nonduality stuff. For that, I want an answer to this question based on certainty. The answer must be a conviction for you. Is there a separate self, a you, in any shape or form ? Please elaborate your answer."

The answer seemed to satisfy you that No, there is no self over here.
Your response to the answer was, "After having read your last post, I see that awakening had already happened. That is, there is knowing of being aware. This forum has its limitations : the goal is to make you see for sure that there is no you, no Fran, no separate self. After having seen that, sure I, me, my, ... continue to pop up as thoughts but you don't believe in them anymore. However, there is still this sense of self, these old reactions and habits, which are still here. It is due to conditioning, old tendencies, ... Now, you want to get rid of the old system of functioning (which is suffering) and function on the basis of the new perspective (no separate self, no me ). If you are at this stage, let me know."

Your more recent questions asked to "describe" a series of words. The answers gave definitions/ descriptions with examples of how they could be used in sentences.

Then, after, saying, "These are all words, concepts trying to explain how/why things happen...", the nature of the answers changed to express direct experience, as suggested: "E.G., Yesterday I was planting in the garden. I saw the hands and felt the sensations in the body, doing what they were doing, as if they had a mind of their own, knew just what to do.
EG., I had dinner, felt the textures and tasted the flavors, saw the hands and arms, felt pleasure and gratitude… (as if) It was all happening on its own."

Is it not OK to give these examples with a pronoun?
Is there a controller, a decision maker?
Answered in the previous response: "When looked at, things seem to happen on their own, one thing after another arises and passes without an Intender, Chooser, Decider, or Controller with Free Will. Without a self."

What is reading this questions ? Is Fran giving answers to the questions?
There is no "Fran".
It is a series of letters assigned to a "male human being".
Are you the decision maker ? When there are a glass of water and a glass of orange juice, you take one of them : how does the choice happen ?
Any number of conditions at the time.
Is there Fran choosing ?
What do you mean by Fran?

Warissem

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Chandra4Now
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Re: Here we go

Postby Chandra4Now » Fri Sep 24, 2021 4:46 pm

Hi Warissem,

What's happening? Are you OK?

Chandra4Now

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warissem
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Re: Here we go

Postby warissem » Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:32 pm

Hi Fran

I am OK thank you. You are invited to join the Unleashed group in facebook. This dialog will go to the archives and you can consult it.

Best wishes

Warissem


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