The True Liberation

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shozeb
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Re: The True Liberation

Postby shozeb » Sun Sep 19, 2021 12:10 pm

Hi Warissem

I have repeated the exercise several times and following are my answers based only on the direct experience, without involving any thoughts.
What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing?
Can't find anything/anyone that is choosing which hand to raise. It looks arbitrary or without involving my will/control, "I" does not know how this choosing happens and based on what, who does it? looks like choosing is done by someone else at some other place, "I" can only see the hand being raised, not involved in choosing.
What is it that is controlling the hand?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
Can't find anyone/anything who is controlling the hand, no "controller" is found that is controlling the hand movements.
Can anything be found that makes the hand move?
Nothing found that is making the hand move. There is only the seeing/knowing of the hand being moved.
How is the decision made?
Looks like decision is not made "locally" (by "me"), it is made somewhere else, "I" only sees/knows the affect of that decision (raising of the hand), does not know about the decision.

Thank you and best regards
-Shozeb

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warissem
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Re: The True Liberation

Postby warissem » Sun Sep 19, 2021 6:14 pm

Hi Shozeb
Can't find anything/anyone that is choosing which hand to raise. It looks arbitrary or without involving my will/control, "I" does not know how this choosing happens and based on what, who does it?
Is there a need for a doer ? How about a cat moving or another animal?

looks like choosing is done by someone else at some other place, "I" can only see the hand being raised, not involved in choosing.
This is a train of thoughts. Commentaries, not direct experience.

Can't find anyone/anything who is controlling the hand, no "controller" is found that is controlling the hand movements.
Good observations.

Nothing found that is making the hand move. There is only the seeing/knowing of the hand being moved.
Yes.


Looks like decision is not made "locally" (by "me"), it is made somewhere else, "I" only sees/knows the affect of that decision (raising of the hand), does not know about the decision.

Is there a you ? If so, where is it ?

Warissem

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shozeb
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Re: The True Liberation

Postby shozeb » Sun Sep 19, 2021 8:30 pm

Hi Warissem
Can't find anything/anyone that is choosing which hand to raise. It looks arbitrary or without involving my will/control, "I" does not know how this choosing happens and based on what, who does it?
Is there a need for a doer ? How about a cat moving or another animal?
No, As previously observed there is no "I" or doer here, it's already happening without a doer, so there is no need for a doer. Same can happen to cat and other animals, moving and living without an actual doer inside.
looks like choosing is done by someone else at some other place, "I" can only see the hand being raised, not involved in choosing.
This is a train of thoughts. Commentaries, not direct experience.
ok, direct answer is that there is no one found actually doing this choosing.
Looks like decision is not made "locally" (by "me"), it is made somewhere else, "I" only sees/knows the affect of that decision (raising of the hand), does not know about the decision.
Is there a you ? If so, where is it ?
No, there is no "me" here, no doer. I was actually referring to ego/mind when I used the words "I"/"me" which we know is an illusion just created by the thoughts :)
OK, so from direct experience, there is no decision, there is only the knowing that a hand is raised then the other one and so on.

Thank you and best regards
-Shozeb

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warissem
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Re: The True Liberation

Postby warissem » Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:04 pm

Hi Shozeb

Great, you are going slowly but surely.

There is an exercise for you. Sit down comfortably and close your eyes : there is hearing of sounds, voices, or whatever.

Is there a separation between sounds and the knowing of them ?

Is there a you, Shozeb, between the sounds and the knowing of them ?

Is there a hearer of sounds ? Was it ever ?

You can take time to do a similar exercise to seeing, tasting, smelling and sensations.

Best wishes

Warissem

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shozeb
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Re: The True Liberation

Postby shozeb » Tue Sep 21, 2021 6:01 pm

Hi Warissem

I think we already did this same exercise some time ago but I have again observed these things and following are my answers.
Is there a separation between sounds and the knowing of them ?
No, there is no separation, both happen at the same time, in fact hearing doesn't happen without knowing. it only happens when there is knowing of the sounds.
Is there a you, Shozeb, between the sounds and the knowing of them ?
No, there is no me/Shozeb here between the two. Knowing happens without my involvement/effort or any need of me.
Is there a hearer of sounds ? Was it ever ?
No, no hearer found, there is only (the action/process of) hearing (or knowing), there was never a hearer.
You can take time to do a similar exercise to seeing, tasting, smelling and sensations.
There is exactly the same experience with these also, there is only knowing about these and no doer in between.

Thank you and best regards
-Shozeb

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warissem
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Re: The True Liberation

Postby warissem » Wed Sep 22, 2021 2:24 pm

Hi Shozeb

There are some questions for you :

Are you happy with what you found? What has changed, what hasn’t changed in normal everyday life?

What do you notice different in relationships with close people?

Is seeking still going on and if so, what are you looking for?

Can you say with a big fat yes, that it is clear, a separate self is an illusion?

Feel free to expose any doubt about this staff.

Best wishes

Warissem

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shozeb
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Re: The True Liberation

Postby shozeb » Wed Sep 29, 2021 6:39 pm

Hi Warissem
Are you happy with what you found? What has changed, what hasn’t changed in normal everyday life?
Yes, There is all acceptance of what was found. I had heard/read about this but the exercises have made it more clear to me. However There is no visible change in the everyday life, I still do my daily job, take care of my kids/family and other relations as before however there is less focus on "I" doing everything and there is more acceptance of whatever way the things go in daily life.
What do you notice different in relationships with close people?
There isn't much difference so far, I do my daily job, take care of the family, enjoy time whenever possible and worry less about daily matters.
Is seeking still going on and if so, what are you looking for?
Yes, to some extent. Who is it that gets the "knowing" of all these phenomena through 5 senses? where exactly does this "knowing" happens?
Can you say with a big fat yes, that it is clear, a separate self is an illusion?
Yes, it is clear that a separate self is an illusion because there is no "I" found when there is a close observation through direct experience. In daily life however I still work as a separate "I" but internally I am clear it's just an illusion and does not exist. There is only "knowing" of the phenomena and no one performing those.

Thank you and Best Regards
-Shozeb Sharif

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warissem
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Re: The True Liberation

Postby warissem » Thu Sep 30, 2021 10:51 am

Hi Shozeb

Fine. These are the final questions. Take your time to give answers through direct experience.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Give in your own words what the illusion of separate self is and how it shows up in experience. Also, through your inquiry, what is different now?

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

5) a) Describe decision. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

Describe intention, free will. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

Describe choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?

Best wishes

Warissem

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shozeb
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Re: The True Liberation

Postby shozeb » Sat Oct 09, 2021 3:45 pm

Hi Warissem

Following are the answers based on direct experience.
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?
No, there is no separate entity 'self' or 'me' that I could find during the exercises or in my direct daily experience. So it's clear that there is no separate self that exists in/as this body. Based on what I recognized through exercises it never existed ever.
2) Give in your own words what the illusion of separate self is and how it shows up in experience. Also, through your inquiry, what is different now?
Illusion of separate self is to consider or believe that a separate self/me exists that is separate from other "mes", having its own free will, choices and control over his life and wants to "achieve" certain goals in life. This illusion is actually created by the "thoughts" that keep reinforcing this belief in daily life situations. Through the inquiry I tried to find this separate self in body/around and its involvement in receiving information through 5 senses and taking decisions based on those. It was realized that there is no "me" involved in any of these experiences and in decision making. All of these happen just automatically and spontaneously without the involvement of any "me" in between.
3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
Before the inquiry, I only heard about this but there was no clear realization of it. With the inquiry it has become more clear to me now that how different life processes keep happening and "I" am no where in between carrying out those.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?
I think continuously with doing exercises related to 5 senses and then the one with decision making, it became more clear.
5) a) Describe decision. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

Describe intention, free will. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

Describe choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.
I think all of these fall in the same category. These mean to choose, prefer or exercise one thing over the other in certain life situations based on your free will or ability to choose and decide. This is also an illusion created by "thoughts" (Red is my favorite, I will go with Red. etc.) or sometimes decisions are spontaneous and we only know when these have "happened". Sometimes our choices are based on our past experiences that shape up a particular preference over the other.
Few days ago, I was going in car with my family that near a square another car suddenly came from our left at a high speed and crossed in front of us towards right. I was driving and wasn't expecting it but by the time I realized my foot had already applied full brakes and we were able to stop. I did not apply any control or choice to apply the brakes, in fact before I could decide the action that I need to take at that time, action was already performed.
b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.
Since "I" do not exist therefore I am not responsible for anything. No I, no free will or control to be responsible for. All the life phenomena are happening automatically without any need of "I".
6) Anything to add?
There is a thinking that since "I" do not exist then "who" is it that is seeking. So probably this seeking should stop now/at some point to not reinforce the illusion of separate "I" and help clearly see through this illusion of separate "me".

Thank you and best regards
-Shozeb

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warissem
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Re: The True Liberation

Postby warissem » Sat Oct 09, 2021 5:10 pm

Hi Shozeb

You said "since there is no I, then ...."

It is a logical assumption. Have you SEEN for sure that there is definitely no you, no Shozeb in any shape or form?

Thank you

Warissem

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shozeb
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Re: The True Liberation

Postby shozeb » Fri Oct 15, 2021 9:40 pm

Hi Warissem
You said "since there is no I, then ...."
It is a logical assumption. Have you SEEN for sure that there is definitely no you, no Shozeb in any shape or form?
I actually wrote this by relating it to my answer in earlier questions where I made clear by directly saying that there is no Shozeb or "I" found.

I couldn't find it in thoughts generation/controlling, in experiencing the world through 5 senses and in decision making etc., so all I can say is that it doesn't exist because I am not able to find it or see it in action, in any form, in any area of my life.

Thank you and best regards
-Shozeb

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warissem
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Re: The True Liberation

Postby warissem » Sat Oct 16, 2021 3:08 pm

Hi Shozeb

I submitted your answers for other guides for further questions if any or confirmation. It will take few days.

Best wishes

Warissem

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shozeb
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Re: The True Liberation

Postby shozeb » Sun Oct 17, 2021 12:05 pm

Hi Warissem

Thank you for your time and efforts.

Best Regards
-Shozeb

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warissem
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Re: The True Liberation

Postby warissem » Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:36 pm

Hi Shozeb

You said :
There is a thinking that since "I" do not exist then "who" is it that is seeking. So probably this seeking should stop now/at some point to not reinforce the illusion of separate "I" and help clearly see through this illusion of separate "me".

Other guides want you to be clearer about it. As I put the question in my last post, I emphasized on the logical assumption "since I do not exist then who is it that is seeking ?" I understand that it is just a thought. In the second part of your answer you said " So probably this seeking should stop now/at some point to not reinforce the illusion of separate "I" and help clearly see through this illusion of separate "me"."

I can understand with other guides that the seeking is still continuing and you have not seen clearly through the illusion of a separate self. Don't believe that you have seen through it if it is not the case. Now elaborate your answer about seeing through the illusion of a separate self, is there someone reading these words on the screen ?

Try to give the answers once per day. Thank you.

Warissem

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shozeb
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Re: The True Liberation

Postby shozeb » Sun Oct 17, 2021 8:28 pm

Hi Warissem

Yes, this is correct that seeking is still continuing and I have not seen clearly through the illusion of a separate self.

Whenever you ask me if a separate self exists, I mentally revisit all of my inquiries/exercises where I couldn't find any separate "I" in any of those, so I logically conclude that "I" do not exist because I was never able to find it during those exercises. So it's still a mental understanding and not a permanent "experience" where the separate "I" is gone forever (I heard such experience exists). So in my daily routine life I still act as a separate "I" performing my daily life roles (husband, father, employee etc.) but whenever I "think" deeply about "I" or try to "experience" it directly or try to find it, there is no separate "I" found.

Thank you
-Shozeb

P.S.: Site is working very slow these days, and it takes few minutes to show or submit a response.


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