Heartsongtruth

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Animitta
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Re: Heartsongtruth

Postby Animitta » Mon Aug 30, 2021 6:45 am

Is there really a "differentiated' object?
Or only thinking says so & you believe it?
This is much like looking for any separation between butt & chair and finding none.
Sensation in the butt defines what is chair experientially, and chair pressure defines consciousness of a butt. Everything is experienced and differentiated awareness of sensations by relation to contact.
Hand on Desk
Please close your eyes for this exercise, just notice any ‘mental’ images or thoughts that appear and put them aside.
Place a hand on a desk or table (flat surface) - Close your eyes.
Now 'go to' the feeling/sensation which we would normally refer to as 'hand on desk' and answer from what you can FIND in Direct Experience.
1) How many things do you find? Are there two things (hand and desk) or is there one thing – sensation?
One thing, sensations
2) Can a ‘feeler’ be found in 'what is being felt'?
NO
3) Do you notice 'one thing feeling another thing'? Or is there just 'a sensation'?
Just sensation. Areas of varied sensations.
4) Do you find an 'I', a body, a hand 'feeling' . . . or is there just 'a sensation'?
Just sensation.
What do you find?
There is sensations but if there is no movement, the contact on the surface goes away and only temperature and the movement of circulation inside the hand becomes aparent
Can an INHERENT FEELER be found? Would anything that is suggested as the feeler, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?
There is no feeler only sensation and awareness, sharp or general.

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Anastacia42
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Re: Heartsongtruth

Postby Anastacia42 » Mon Aug 30, 2021 12:50 pm

Good morning, Amritatta,

I have no idea what this meant:
Sensation in the butt defines what is chair experientially, and chair pressure defines consciousness of a butt. Everything is experienced and differentiated awareness of sensations by relation to contact.
What, exactly, is differentiated here? That is, do you find 2 separate things or only Sensation?

All good on the exercise. How does it feel to find only one thing, Sensation?

Loving,
~ Stacy

"Stop acting so small. You are the universe in ecstatic motion."

~ Rumi

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Animitta
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Re: Heartsongtruth

Postby Animitta » Thu Sep 02, 2021 6:57 am

I have no idea what this meant:
Sensation in the butt defines what is chair experientially, and chair pressure defines consciousness of a butt. Everything is experienced and differentiated awareness of sensations by relation to contact.
What, exactly, is differentiated here? That is, do you find 2 separate things or only Sensation?
What I meant was that sensations are experienced in relations to other sensations, if the attention focuses long enough on one sensation with relationship to another it either goes away, like stairing at a colored wall for a long time it turns grey, or more detailed sensations that encompass the gross sensation reveal.
All good on the exercise. How does it feel to find only one thing, Sensation?
Inhabiting just the awareness of sensation eventually leads to a sense of space going away and there is left just an ocean of sensations some louder, some quieter. Although only one sensation appears in awareness in a single moment the sensation arises and passes in relationship to the arising and passing of other sensations. It feels like it is defined or marked by it's difference of comparison to other sensations.

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Anastacia42
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Re: Heartsongtruth

Postby Anastacia42 » Thu Sep 02, 2021 1:06 pm

Good morning!

Excellent. This is the first exercise where you've dropped into sensation, LOOKED and given simple Direct Experience replies to the questions. This is progress! Please answer ALL exercises as simply and directly as you did this one!

Yes! One thing. Sensation.

Reading that did not make my head hurt.

Have you read Gateless Gate Crashers? It may be downloaded from Resources, Books here. Or Liberation Unleashed? That one is found on Amazon.

Keeping to the simple LOOKING & Direct Experience replies as you did for Hand on Desk. please do the Doership Exercise from a few days ago again.

Loving,
~ Stacy

"Stop acting so small. You are the universe in ecstatic motion."

~ Rumi

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Animitta
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Re: Heartsongtruth

Postby Animitta » Sat Sep 04, 2021 4:44 am

Have you read Gateless Gate Crashers? It may be downloaded from Resources, Books here. Or Liberation Unleashed? That one is found on Amazon.
I have not read either yet. Will read at some point.
Keeping to the simple LOOKING & Direct Experience replies as you did for Hand on Desk. please do the Doership Exercise from a few days ago again.
So, when the view on the right is seen, do you have the ‘choice’ not to see?

There is no ability to turn seeing off. Although have to make effort not to look around and label.
Same thing with the view on the left, can you NOT see the view on the left?
Sight is there. THere is no choice otherwise.
Same thing with the view in front with cl.osed eyes, can you NOT see the ‘black space’?
If I can wrangle the mind to focus on sight with eyes closed then there is only black space. When eyes are closed the attention goes either towards thought or the body and sensations.
Can you turn off seeing?
No but can be less or more attentive towards sight.
What did the 'chooser' choose? Did a 'self' choose something?
There is only choice of focusing the attention on sight and note when it is distracted from sight.
If you are unable to choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?
There is a choice of attention.

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Anastacia42
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Re: Heartsongtruth

Postby Anastacia42 » Sat Sep 04, 2021 11:35 am

Good morning,

Much better, but I'm amazed at how much thinking content (lies) you can pack into a few words!

IGNORE THE CONTENT OF THOUGHT It's all lies.
There is a choice of attention.
Really? Is there? Or is that just a story your mind tells & is then believed?

You probably are no better than most of us at keeping any kind of focus without being distracted, right? Do you "choose" these distractions (yes or no... no long answers!) Or do they just show up randomly & you can't control them at all?

Notice the lack of control.

Notice the nothingness.


Report simple Sensory experience only.

Loving,
~ Stacy

"Stop acting so small. You are the universe in ecstatic motion."

~ Rumi

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Anastacia42
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Re: Heartsongtruth

Postby Anastacia42 » Sat Sep 04, 2021 11:36 am

Also, it will possibly help for you to read the book. It is all examples of people who saw no self. Role models may be useful.
~ Stacy

"Stop acting so small. You are the universe in ecstatic motion."

~ Rumi

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Animitta
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Re: Heartsongtruth

Postby Animitta » Sun Sep 05, 2021 9:37 am

Really? Is there? Or is that just a story your mind tells & is then believed?
When put into words and shared it becomes a story. Reflecting on anything becomes a story. That being said there is effort and no effort. Effort towards and efforts away does imply choice.
You probably are no better than most of us at keeping any kind of focus without being distracted, right? Do you "choose" these distractions (yes or no... no long answers!) Or do they just show up randomly & you can't control them at all?
There is efforts and where there is effort there is choice. Choice does not imply a self but does imply that something goes against the grain of patterns and tendencies or goes with patterns and tendencies. I realize there is a place where this all breaks down when totally abiding in the present moment but that does not take away from the fact that conscious minds reflect and make choices upon reflections.
Notice the lack of control.

Often without cultivation with total surrender also comes total sleep/unconsciousness and reactivity. Ultimately total release of control is the goal, but from a place of cultivation, not disintegration. Possibly both.
Notice the nothingness.
Without noting there is nothingness. Noticing nothingness isn't noticing at all. Yet I do believe it is possibly to abide in nothingness when I get out of the way.

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Animitta
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Re: Heartsongtruth

Postby Animitta » Sun Sep 05, 2021 9:55 am

“The only people who ever see the truth, and step through that Gateless Gate are those who decide to take responsibility for finding out what the truth really is.” (Gateless Gatecrashers, p.10)
In this quote from the introduction of Gateless Gatecrashers, what exactly is taking responsibility for what? So there is no-self, yet there is personal responsibility. Is that not a choice, and if so, what is the choosing/choice-making faculty?

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Anastacia42
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Re: Heartsongtruth

Postby Anastacia42 » Sun Sep 05, 2021 12:47 pm

Good morning
I realize there is a place where this all breaks down when totally abiding in the present moment but that does not take away from the fact that conscious minds reflect and make choices upon reflections.
Explain & describe the exact step-by-step mechanism of choice, of choosing. How precisely do you "choose?"

If you examine this story closely enough, you will find no "conscious mind" to reflect or make choices.


In this quote from the introduction of Gateless Gatecrashers, what exactly is taking responsibility for what? So there is no-self, yet there is personal responsibility. Is that not a choice, and if so, what is the choosing/choice-making faculty?
This is the same as the use of the word "I" or "me" when we know there is no "me." It is a convenience of language in this illusory, made-up story of a relative world that has no Direct or Actual existence, but is merely content of thought. Choice is the same - a convenience, just another thought story. There is no "personal responsibility" in Direct or Actual Experience. It cannot be found. But looking & not finding can flip you into the visceral awareness of no self that you seek here.

Do not take my word for this, you must LOOK & (not) find it for yourself.
What is the choosing/choice-making faculty?
You tell me. What is found?

If this is frightening, please let me know, because fear & expectations are the only things preventing your SEEING.

Much love,
~ Stacy

"Stop acting so small. You are the universe in ecstatic motion."

~ Rumi

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Animitta
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Re: Heartsongtruth

Postby Animitta » Mon Sep 06, 2021 11:11 pm

Explain & describe the exact step-by-step mechanism of choice, of choosing. How precisely do you "choose?"
If you examine this story closely enough, you will find no "conscious mind" to reflect or make choices.
If I am present oriented observing direct absolute experience, yes there is just phenomena arising and passing, but from that level of observation there can be no more examination of causality, cause and effect. On a relative level there is causality and there is some consistencies within the realm of causality that can be comprehended in two ways, present oriented arising of phenomena, or relative relations of cause and effect which needs a consciousness to hold a perception of a past moment as it effects the present moment and turns into the preceding moment. From a present oriented observation there is only present moment, present moment, present moment. There is no way to correlation choice because that faculty has been shut down.

The choice comes from a past experience or code being imputed onto the present moment with the element of intention or will, which is asserting something on or over something considered to be other and malleable. From a present oriented faculty of observation there is no choice. Choice only occurs at the meta software level of cognition.
You tell me. What is found?
I see the absolute as the hardware of existence and the choice making faculty is operating at a software level of reality.
If this is frightening, please let me know, because fear & expectations are the only things preventing your SEEING.
I do experience the truth when observing from an absolute level of experience, when all thoughts quiet and all that there is this present moment with out any gripping of residue of a past moment or an imagined future moment, but I also do not feel the need to tear apart the functional operations of the computational mind at the meta levels of cognition. Although I do agree it does not exists in a substantial manner once so ever.

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Anastacia42
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Re: Heartsongtruth

Postby Anastacia42 » Tue Sep 07, 2021 12:01 am

If you want to see no self, you must stay in now & the absolute.

If you don't want to see no self, then keep arguing for the relative & for the story of causality.
Although I do agree it does not exists in a substantial manner once so ever.
Those are thoughts, theories, not a lived experience. And true.

Stop sabotaging your clarity & let go of the stories and do the pointers Now & Here in the absolute or you might as well give up. What you're looking for does not exist where or how you're looking.

Please read this:

http://www.liberationunleashed.com/reso ... r-seeker/

Loving,
~ Stacy

"Stop acting so small. You are the universe in ecstatic motion."

~ Rumi

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Anastacia42
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Re: Heartsongtruth

Postby Anastacia42 » Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:48 am

Hi Amritatta,

Still there? Ready to try again?

Yes, this is all outside of your usual methods of thinking and analyzing. This is sensing, using only the 5 senses & ignoring the content of thought.

Can you do that?

Much love,
~ Stacy

"Stop acting so small. You are the universe in ecstatic motion."

~ Rumi

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Animitta
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Re: Heartsongtruth

Postby Animitta » Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:38 am

Yes, this is all outside of your usual methods of thinking and analyzing. This is sensing, using only the 5 senses & ignoring the content of thought.

Can you do that?
Surely can!!! 👍

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Anastacia42
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Re: Heartsongtruth

Postby Anastacia42 » Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:56 pm

Good morning,

How is the reading going? The books contain examples of threads where the client saw no self successfully. Us that helping?

I would like for you to read through your entire thread again and compare it to how conversations go in one of the books.


Here's your next pointer:

Palm Flipping Exercise

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.

2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience.

Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:

How is the movement controlled?

Does a thought control it?

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

How is the decision made to turn the hand over?


Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

Who or what ​ chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?


Loving,
~ Stacy

"Stop acting so small. You are the universe in ecstatic motion."

~ Rumi


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