How to stop searching

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AnastasiaChe
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Re: How to stop searching

Postby AnastasiaChe » Tue Aug 31, 2021 11:05 pm

Hi Jon,
Yes! And how about "mind"? Is that also thought?

I mean, what "mind"?
There isn't such a thing or place as "mind", for sure. Just another intellectual concept or thought.
So, is there a 'self' anywhere in experience?

Is there a self here right now?
No, there isn't and never was, regardless of thoughts presence about it. When there are thoughts about "self", "I", "separation", these thoughts change nothing. Still, the self and I don't appear and separation doesn't happen.

Love
Nastia

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JonathanR
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Re: How to stop searching

Postby JonathanR » Thu Sep 02, 2021 7:44 pm

Hi Nastia
. No, there isn't and never was, regardless of thoughts presence about it. When there are thoughts about "self", "I", "separation", these thoughts change nothing. Still, the self and I don't appear and separation doesn't happen.
Wow. That's quite definite Nastia.

How is the experience now? Is there still the anxiety or has that relaxed?

Is there any remaining doubt or is the illusion "seen"?

With love

Jon

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AnastasiaChe
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Re: How to stop searching

Postby AnastasiaChe » Sat Sep 04, 2021 6:28 am

Hi Jon!
How is the experience now? Is there still the anxiety or has that relaxed?
I'd say the anxiety is relaxed. Or even when it's not there is no anxiety about the presense of anxiety =))
Is there any remaining doubt or is the illusion "seen"?
I don't really feel like there would be doubt.

But at the same time there are illusions in a form of thoughts. Like "I'm not good enough", "I need to make look muself better than I am to make other people like me", "others think something bad about me/don't like me", some kind of disagreements with others etc etc

With love,
Nastia

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JonathanR
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Re: How to stop searching

Postby JonathanR » Sun Sep 05, 2021 10:29 pm

Hi Nastia !
. I'd say the anxiety is relaxed. Or even when it's not there is no anxiety about the presense of anxiety =)
Well that sounds easier. Good.
. I don't really feel like there would be doubt.

But at the same time there are illusions in a form of thoughts. Like "I'm not good enough", "I need to make look muself better than I am to make other people like me", "others think something bad about me/don't like me", some kind of disagreements with others etc etc
Yes. Of course. How could this be otherwise?

Well I guess it can be otherwise sometimes, maybe very peaceful, with little or no thoughts about 'I'? That is also very possible.

But does the appearance of these "I" thoughts prevent the noticing that these are all referencing some sort of "thing" that isn't really "there," at all? Do they prevent "seeing" that you are not what these thoughts would 'say' you are?

Love

Jon

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JonathanR
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Re: How to stop searching

Postby JonathanR » Fri Sep 10, 2021 9:07 pm

Hi Nastia

How is it going?

Did my comments and questions make sense?

How would you say your inquiry is going now?

Reading through, I'd say now that my last comments were not really encouraging enough. You've been doing some great investigation and definitely going in the right direction.

Let me know how you're getting on?


Love

Jon

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AnastasiaChe
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Re: How to stop searching

Postby AnastasiaChe » Sat Sep 11, 2021 8:08 pm

Hi Jon!

That's very odd. I've checked several times my e-mail and the forum and haven't seen your answers. So, looks like there was the need for this pause.
I'll look through your messages and answer later today or tomorrow.

With Love,
Nastia

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JonathanR
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Re: How to stop searching

Postby JonathanR » Sun Sep 12, 2021 8:08 pm

Hi Nastia

Thanks for your message. That does very occasionally seem to happen that notifications don't work.

Yes, please let me know how things are going?

love

Jon

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AnastasiaChe
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Re: How to stop searching

Postby AnastasiaChe » Sun Sep 12, 2021 11:17 pm

So, once again,
hi Jon,
Reading through, I'd say now that my last comments were not really encouraging enough.
I wouldn't say so, Jon. Don't worry, I’m totally fine here. Everything goes like it should, isn't it?

Actually I had a very interesting experience on the previous weekend. I had a Tibetan bowls and gongs meditation. And it kinda... Cleared some of my illusions for some time. But I needed some time to stabilize. Maybe that's why I wasn’t able to see your messages.
But does the appearance of these "I" thoughts prevent the noticing that these are all referencing some sort of "thing" that isn't really "there," at all? Do they prevent "seeing" that you are not what these thoughts would 'say' you are?
Well, I wish it so much I could say that they don't prevent, but mostly I see like they do. I often find myself "inside" all these thoughts. And after I wake up from them, still I don't see the oneness or the absence of self. And still thoughts-fears seem to prevent me from doing something.

At the same time when I wake up from "being inside a thought", for sure I see that the things the thought is about aren't real. Sometimes it is seeing, sometimes it's just intellectual reminding myself.

With love,
Nastia

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JonathanR
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Re: How to stop searching

Postby JonathanR » Mon Sep 13, 2021 9:48 pm

Hi Nastia
. I wouldn't say so, Jon. Don't worry, I’m totally fine here. Everything goes like it should, isn't it?
Ok. Good.
. Actually I had a very interesting experience on the previous weekend. I had a Tibetan bowls and gongs meditation. And it kinda... Cleared some of my illusions for some time. But I needed some time to stabilize. Maybe that's why I wasn’t able to see your messages.
Interesting. Those sounds can be very beautiful and arresting, can't they?

Which illusions were cleared? Is it possible to say?

. Well, I wish it so much I could say that they don't prevent, but mostly I see like they do. I often find myself "inside" all these thoughts.
That's ok. Which self is that one?
. And after I wake up from them, still I don't see the oneness or the absence of self.
What if that is simply thoughts "saying" that? A story about someone "not seeing"? The waking up would be half done. The thought about "not seeing" is another thought. Just one step more and this idea about not seeing is also "seen"

If it's oneness you want to see, a 'self' can't do that Oeness has to see its self. It's the most natural thing.
. And still thoughts-fears seem to prevent me from doing something.
We can look at them?. It would be a good idea because otherwise they can go round and round .
. At the same time when I wake up from "being inside a thought", for sure I see that the things the thought is about aren't real. Sometimes it is seeing, sometimes it's just intellectual reminding myself
This is common at this stage. You're doing well.


Love

Jon

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AnastasiaChe
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Re: How to stop searching

Postby AnastasiaChe » Tue Sep 14, 2021 10:22 pm

Hi Jon!
Interesting. Those sounds can be very beautiful and arresting, can't they?
Yeah, I had a feeling like I'm in the open space
Which illusions were cleared? Is it possible to say?
I'll try.
I saw how all my sufferings are... it's hard to choose the word... unimportant? Yes. And no. My choice? No, we already know that there is no such a thing as choice or free will. I don't know how to describe it better. Like there is even possibility for them to appear and not to appear. But I haven't seen what is it up to. At that time I felt it like "I can suffer and I can not". And it's not about some kind of "state of mind". It's just can happen and that's all.

At that day I saw it like a metaphor. Like I was sitting for a long time above a mud puddle. And the reflection I've seen all the time was perceived like "my true reflection". And I looked into it just because. =))) And all I needed was to stop looking there and think that this is me. And that day it was like I've raised my head and saw that I'm not my experience, I'm not my sufferings, I'm not my desire to raise the head from that puddle. But I haven't seen what am I. (Because there is no such "I", right? =)) This are my thoughts speaking, not seeing)

There is something more that doesn't currently come to me in a form of words.

I've just caught the thought that I was so worried about my English in the beginning of our conversation. About how "hard" it is to find the right words and would you be able to understand what do I want to say. And now it doesn't bother at all.
Well, I wish it so much I could say that they don't prevent, but mostly I see like they do. I often find myself "inside" all these thoughts.
That's ok. Which self is that one?
I don't know really. I can't understand this scheme how does it happen. Sure, there is no self which would be stuck in thoughts. But somehow it seems like some thoughts occupy all the space. Become almost tangible.
And after I wake up from them, still I don't see the oneness or the absence of self.
What if that is simply thoughts "saying" that? A story about someone "not seeing"? The waking up would be half done. The thought about "not seeing" is another thought. Just one step more and this idea about not seeing is also "seen"
These words make me laugh and cry. Like "Omg, was it so easy?" Like that "puddle story" in the beginning. All you (?) have to do (?) is to raise the head from the "not seeing puddle" :D
If it's oneness you want to see, a 'self' can't do that Oeness has to see its self. It's the most natural thing.
Sorry, Jon, but here I'll probably ask you to expand this thought. I was reading it back for several times, but I can't get this thought currently.
And still thoughts-fears seem to prevent me from doing something.
We can look at them?. It would be a good idea because otherwise they can go round and round.
Ok, some of them "prevent" from doing something, some of them "make me" do something. Like "protect myself" in a way.

For instance, "I am afraid of spending too much money" or "I am afraid of going live on instagram" are preventing me from spending too much or going live. And at the same time they are not. =) Because I can overspend sometimes and still I post videos of myself speaking. Ok, "I'm afraid to send my daughter to the kindergarden because.../doesn't matter/" looks like prevent me from sending her. Ok, I understand that it just happens. And thoughts just appear. I see it now.

Or the thought "automatic reaction" when someone tells me what do I need to do or why am I wrong. And it seems like it creates a thought-protest instantly, which again occupies all the "space around" and "creates" a tension in the body. And here I even can't see it "from the outside".

Love
Nastia

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JonathanR
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Re: How to stop searching

Postby JonathanR » Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:38 pm

Hi Nastia

Wow! Great.

I may not comment on everything you've raised here but just a few things...
. we already know that there is no such a thing as choice or free will. I don't know how to describe it better. Like there is even possibility for them to appear and not to appear.
How interesting. Well, now, maybe there's something in that?
. I don't know how to describe it better. Like there is even possibility for them to appear and not to appear. But I haven't seen what is it up to. At that time I felt it like "I can suffer and I can not". And it's not about some kind of "state of mind". It's just can happen and that's all.
Beautiful. Nicely described.
. But I haven't seen what am I. (Because there is no such "I", right? =)
An eye cannot see its self yet seeing happens An ear cannot hear it's self yet hearing happens , a nose cannot smell its self yet smelling happens (and so on)
. don't know really. I can't understand this scheme how does it happen. Sure, there is no self which would be stuck in thoughts. But somehow it seems like some thoughts occupy all the space. Become almost tangible.
That's very interesting. Could this be to do with attention? Attending to what thoughts "say", to the STORIES ABOUT what's happening? Rather than what's actually here right now, ?

. If it's oneness you want to see, a 'self' can't do that Oneness has to see its self. It's the most natural thing.
Sorry, Jon, but here I'll probably ask you to expand this thought. I was reading it back for several times, but I can't get this thought currently.
I was being a little too clever with language here.

I was really asking is there even a "self" that could get to "see" oneness, or just oneness appearing?

With love

Jon

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AnastasiaChe
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Re: How to stop searching

Postby AnastasiaChe » Thu Sep 16, 2021 12:18 pm

Hi Jon!
An eye cannot see its self yet seeing happens An ear cannot hear it's self yet hearing happens , a nose cannot smell its self yet smelling happens (and so on)
Yes, but I can see the eyes and ears in the mirror, I can touch them. And there is a thought that there should be some possibilities to "see" or "touch" or feel the sence of being/ the isness. And there is a sensation of some kind. Undescribable
Could this be to do with attention? Attending to what thoughts "say", to the STORIES ABOUT what's happening? Rather than what's actually here right now, ?
Yes, it is attention that is focused almost 100% on a thought. But then a tricky thought appears "and what is this attention?" "What's the source of it?". And I can't see the answer. Again because the eye can't see itself?
I was really asking is there even a "self" that could get to "see" oneness, or just oneness appearing?
Ok, I get it. It's again similar with the eye that can't see itself and the ear that can't hear itself.

For sure there is no self. But

I'm sorry, I have listened again to a couple of minutes of a satsang about no-sef. =) And there was a phrase that described what I feel quite well. Like when the seeing happens, at some moment there comes a feeling, a thought "I have seen". And this is so tricky for me currently. I understand that I wait when the self will see there is no self. =)) And there are thoughts like "I should do something to clear all this expectations and I don't know what exactly"

With love,
Nastia

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JonathanR
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Re: How to stop searching

Postby JonathanR » Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:16 pm

Hi Nastia

. Yes, but I can see the eyes and ears in the mirror, I can touch them. And there is a thought that there should be some possibilities to "see" or "touch" or feel the sence of being/ the isness.
You say "I can see them in the mirror and touch them"

But go to the mirror right now and look.

Seeing happens, sure, but what "sees" ?

Point now, precisely, to the "I" that "sees".

Are the colours that appear "you"? Or are they colours + thoughts that carry an assumption of an owner?

With love

Jon

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AnastasiaChe
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Re: How to stop searching

Postby AnastasiaChe » Thu Sep 16, 2021 11:34 pm

Hi, Jon!
But go to the mirror right now and look.
Wow, that was an interesting experience. At some point freaky, at some point very controversial.

I stared at the reflection in the mirror for about an hour.
In the very begin there was a sense (thought?) that this it’s much harder to believe there is no self, because when you look into your own face, the feeling that this body is you become very strong.

Later there was a feeling (thought?) that I’m not this body at all. And it frightens and the thought “dissociation with the body is not the best outcome I’d like to achieve” appears. “Quite the opposite, I have some issues with the acceptance of my body, the last thing I would like to gain here is the “doesn’t matter” attitude”

And then the next thought-worry appeared, which bothers me from time to time. “If everything is an illusion, all this is more like a dream of the Consciousness, it can’t be true that you can do anything”.

And in general the cycle of these thoughts repeated several times.

Every time I tried to answer the question
Seeing happens, sure, but what "sees" ?
the answer was “these eyes, this body”.
– No, seeing happens you can say through the eyes?

Here I remembered that I already told it in the very beginning of my inquiry and returned to the second page of this forum. And there was a question from you
Going by the pure experience of seeing is it one of noticing instruments as portholes through which seeing happens? Is there an entity looking out through portholed ? Or is it more like just seeing...with the added on thought of "eyes as instruments"?
And during the looking into a mirror it seems like yes. The eyes seem to be a portholes for the abbys which gazes into you when you gaze into it long enough.

And then the question appeared “Do these eyes of the reflection see something?”
– I don’t know. I can only guess that most probably – no.
— And is it similar with everything around?

Lately I quite often have a feeling that everything is just a dream of “my” consciousness and no one sees nothing except for me, who's "subconsciousness" create all this mind game.

To be honest, after this looking into a mirror I feel like I've made regress in my investigation. Because now I have quite strong feeling "I am the body". It's kinda... surprising. =))

With love,
Nastia

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JonathanR
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Re: How to stop searching

Postby JonathanR » Fri Sep 17, 2021 6:32 am

Hi Nastia,

Thank you for doing the exercise.
. To be honest, after this looking into a mirror I feel like I've made regress in my investigation. Because now I have quite strong feeling "I am the body". It's kinda... surprising. =))
Don't worry. Yes,thoughts "say" this about regression but regression can only happen to a character in a story about "progress or regression".

I'm not surprised about the "I am the body" perspective because you described fear and worry as this exercise went on.
. In the very begin there was a sense (thought?) that this it’s much harder to believe there is no self, because when you look into your own face, the feeling that this body is you become very strong
Well done for questioning whether this sense may actually be a thought. It's so common in these inquiries for thoughts to appear which 'carry' or 'contain' assumptions such as "I sense" or "I feel" .

It's worth examining this. Notice these occasions when these thoughts appear. Is there s feeling as such?

What is a feeling? Is it an energetic sensation plus the narrative that "I feel"?
. Later there was a feeling (thought?) that I’m not this body at all. And it frightens and the thought “dissociation with the body is not the best outcome I’d like to achieve” appears. “Quite the opposite, I have some issues with the acceptance of my body, the last thing I would like to gain here is the “doesn’t matter” attitude”
It looks like the fear of suddenly "seeing" no self bought on fear and thoughts of needing to protect?

What you really are is not something that is "contained inside" a body or identical with the appearance of one.

But on the other hand the belief that "I'm not this body at.all" is potentially weird. We are not heading to adopt a belief or attitude of dissociation that "body doesn't matter". It just isn't anywhere near to containing or 'being' the fullness of what IS.

We can examine more the idea that "I am in my body" . But also I think the main issue is fear of seeing that there is no self. You have been tottering around the edge of this for a while, almost making the last step.

What do you feel Nastia?


With love

Jon


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