Walking through the locked door

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JonathanR
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Re: Walking through the locked door

Postby JonathanR » Wed Jul 21, 2021 12:59 pm

Hi Dave

. The only part of the Tibetan practise that I still keep up is prostrations, but this is mainly as an exercise to keep my back strong.
Oh prostrations sound great. And a great idea for maintaining back strength. Meditation can be good too if that's what's going on Why not? But I mentioned the Lonchempa quote because he was getting at the 'caging' aspect of perpetual expectation , of any sort really.
. there is absolutely no difference whatsoever between the consciousness of an enlightened being and that of an unenlightened one "
I can't argue with this, I probably don't fully grasp though it as it leaves me a little non-plussed.
I take from this that he's pointing to expectations again...to all ideas about how enlightenment should look, be experienced, or what it should mean.

There are many times in Buddhist literature in which the Buddha is supposed to have stressed that "It's not this and it's not that. Nor is it both this and that nor is it neither this nor that. In this way he covered every possible way that the rational mind could latch on to a concept for, well.... Where are the words?
. For me the waiting is not so much an eager anticipation but more an amused noticing of whatever does happen, when it does. I also don't expect this penny dropping (the realisation of no-self) to be anything special by way of an event
Noticing of whatever does happen. Nice 😊
. As a matter of interest I did have a spiritual experience a few years back where I suddenly saw the one-ness of everything.
It only lasted a few seconds but it was very lovely. This is not something I'm craving to get back to. If it happens it happens, if not, no dig deal. I don't set any great store by it but it helped me to know that an experience of oneness is possible and that at the time it felt like truth.
Sounds beautiful.

What is not happening that should?


With love

Jon

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DaveBadger
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Re: Walking through the locked door

Postby DaveBadger » Thu Jul 22, 2021 6:44 am

Top o' the mornin' to you Jon,
What is not happening that should?
The penny dropping.
It somehow feels as though the penny is on it's way down, but the gravity is very low in Daveworld so it may be some time before it lands.

Dave
For the joy of it all

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JonathanR
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Re: Walking through the locked door

Postby JonathanR » Fri Jul 23, 2021 8:08 pm

Hello Dave
. What is not happening that should?
The penny dropping.
Well there's your expectation in a nutshell. The idea that something hasn't happened that should.

"Penny dropping" is a metaphor. Like all metaphors there's a danger that it will be taken literally, that there must be some experience that corresponds to the "penny" and that the "dropping" corresponds to getting the experience.
. It somehow feels as though the penny is on it's way down, but the gravity is very low in Daveworld so it may be some time before it lands.
What you describe here is simply an entertaining story about an imaginary guy. It's symbolic language
again.

Very much like your "locked door" with a "you" on one side and an enlightened teacher on the other. None of this is actually happening. It's a form of entertainment and the fun is believing in it. This is why I regularly ask you what it is that you really want?

You may be very happy to be dreaming of "Dave in Daveworld"..

(By the way, if that's the case that's perfectly ok but then this conversation may never reach a conclusion).

Love

Jon

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DaveBadger
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Re: Walking through the locked door

Postby DaveBadger » Fri Jul 23, 2021 8:24 pm

Good evening Jon,
The penny dropping.
Well there's your expectation in a nutshell. The idea that something hasn't happened that should.
Fair enough, I see what you're saying here.
You may be very happy to be dreaming of "Dave in Daveworld"..
To be honest I am very happy in this dream.
However something keeps nagging me to wake up.
I would like to wake up, but the dream is very compelling and I can't shake myself out of it despite your best efforts.

Love

Dave

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JonathanR
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Re: Walking through the locked door

Postby JonathanR » Sat Jul 24, 2021 11:07 am

Hi Dave

To be honest I am very happy in this dream.
However something keeps nagging me to wake up.
I would like to wake up, but the dream is very compelling and I can't shake myself out of it despite your best efforts.
Well, it's not as if the dream will not keep appearing. Whats called for is recognition of illusion as illusion. That can be instantaneous.


love

Jon

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JonathanR
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Re: Walking through the locked door

Postby JonathanR » Mon Jul 26, 2021 10:28 pm

. To be honest I am very happy in this dream.
However something keeps nagging me to wake up.
I would like to wake up, but the dream is very compelling and I can't shake myself out of it despite your best efforts.
Well, this could go on for a long time. "You" won't "wake up". Sorry to break the news.

It's a dream about dreaming and a dream about waking up. It's all thoughts ABOUT "waking up" or "not waking up".Do you see this? None of this is at all real.

We've talked about language. Words are suggestive of realities that can get believed in without actually having any basis in what's happening at all.
.
"Enlightenment" for example. Fine. It's an idea about, well, what, exactly? A story about "waking up"? What does that mean? Still less "my waking up". These metaphors may as well be sleeping tablets to ensure the illusion is never recognised.

So I'd say to you, if you're interested enough , niggled enough to want to explore , drop notions of "waking up' (which is spiritual pie in the sky). Just chuck out all those thoughts about 'attainment' . They are very unhelpful beliefs.

Instead, turn with real interest towards what's here now, without labels, without interpretations, without recourse to metaphors.


Love

Jon

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DaveBadger
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Re: Walking through the locked door

Postby DaveBadger » Tue Jul 27, 2021 6:54 am

Morning Jon,

OK what's here now (as I sit in my cabin with eyes closed) is a quietness of mind, plus a regular knocking on the door of thoughts wanting to be let in. Unexpectedly, if I stop resisting them and welcome them in they stop knocking and just wait patiently outside.

Dave
For the joy of it all

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JonathanR
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Re: Walking through the locked door

Postby JonathanR » Tue Jul 27, 2021 9:03 am

Morning Dave

. OK what's here now (as I sit in my cabin with eyes closed) is a quietness of mind, plus a regular knocking on the door of thoughts wanting to be let in. Unexpectedly, if I stop resisting them and welcome them in they stop knocking and just wait patiently outside.
It sounds as though, with eyes closed, there is an idea about a mind that would be quiet but for the knocking of thoughts on some sort of door?. Somehow, in this account, thoughts were imagined to be on the "outside" of a "quiet mind", making a noise from the outside?

Is that actually what happens? Where is "the door"? Is it possible to prevent the appearance of a thought that is already happening? Where, exactly, is the "knocking" taking place?

Anyway, it sounds good about not resisting thoughts, since they were actually turning up.

But then, what about this idea that thoughts "wait quietly outside"? Isn't that a bit of embroidery? Outside of where? How can it be known that a thought is "waiting outside"?


With love

Jon

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DaveBadger
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Re: Walking through the locked door

Postby DaveBadger » Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:09 pm

Hi Jon,
It sounds as though, with eyes closed, there is an idea about a mind that would be quiet but for the knocking of thoughts on some sort of door?. Somehow, in this account, thoughts were imagined to be on the "outside" of a "quiet mind", making a noise from the outside?

Is that actually what happens? Where is "the door"? Is it possible to prevent the appearance of a thought that is already happening? Where, exactly, is the "knocking" taking place?
The knocking on a door is metaphorical. The actual experience is hard to describe. There is no noise, no door, no inside or outside even, although there is a feeling of it being in my head, it's just an urgent impulse for the thought to be allowed to be the centre of attention.

Dave
For the joy of it all

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JonathanR
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Re: Walking through the locked door

Postby JonathanR » Tue Aug 03, 2021 10:23 am

Hi Dave

I've been on the road recently and ran out of mobile internet access. The WiFi is useless where I am but perhaps will be good enough for me to send this message?

It may be a few days before I can post. My apologies

Jon

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DaveBadger
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Re: Walking through the locked door

Postby DaveBadger » Tue Aug 03, 2021 11:30 am

No worries Jon.

I'm interested to know here you are though to be that much off grid these days.
My guess North Korea? or maybe Mongolia? lol

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JonathanR
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Re: Walking through the locked door

Postby JonathanR » Fri Aug 06, 2021 10:47 am

Various campsites in the Lakes without a signal. And my mobile data has run out!

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JonathanR
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Re: Walking through the locked door

Postby JonathanR » Mon Aug 09, 2021 8:17 am

Hello Dave


Sorry for the delay. I do have some WiFi today, though again, probably not for a few days after this.
. Instead, turn with real interest towards what's here now, without labels, without interpretations, without recourse to metaphors.
You remember I suggested this? And you said..
. OK what's here now (as I sit in my cabin with eyes closed) is a quietness of mind, plus a regular knocking on the door of thoughts wanting to be let in. Unexpectedly, if I stop resisting them and welcome them in they stop knocking and just wait patiently outside.
Leaving aside your metaphorical use of language which doesn't help at all in your inquiry ...

A couple of things.

Its good to notice that unexpected result from stopping resisting.

What is it that actually "does" the resistance at these times? (For this, it's best to notice when it's actually happening and not answer from thinking about it)

The second thing is that you described a particular type of situation in which eyes were closed and there was little noise. A kind of 'spiritual' or meditative circumstance. These times can have merits but I suggest that you also look at what's here, now, without labels, without closing eyes or doing anything particularly special to "get there" .


Love

Jon

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DaveBadger
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Re: Walking through the locked door

Postby DaveBadger » Mon Aug 09, 2021 9:57 pm

Hi Jon,

What's here now is just "living".
It's "life" doing its thing, appearing as stuff, doing what stuff does.

Dave
For the joy of it all

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JonathanR
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Re: Walking through the locked door

Postby JonathanR » Thu Aug 12, 2021 10:18 pm

Hi Dave

. What's here now is just "living".
It's "life" doing its thing, appearing as stuff, doing what stuff does.
Is stuff ok? Is it relaxing, or is there still a niggle about 'stuff'?


Love

Jon


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