Walking through the locked door

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DaveBadger
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Re: Walking through the locked door

Postby DaveBadger » Sat Jul 10, 2021 5:23 pm

Hi Jon,
What separation?
Now that is a very good question.

Although there seemed to be a separation, on looking for it I can't find it.
If there is a separation I certainly can't define it, describe it or measure it in any way.

So, if there is no separation between awareness and experience.
Then there can be no separate self, only awareness, experiencing.
QED
I like that.

Dave
For the joy of it all

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JonathanR
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Re: Walking through the locked door

Postby JonathanR » Sun Jul 11, 2021 9:14 am

Hi Dave

. Then there can be no separate self, only awareness, experiencing.
Does awareness "experience"?

If so what is it that is not it that it "experiences" ?


Love

Jon

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DaveBadger
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Re: Walking through the locked door

Postby DaveBadger » Sun Jul 11, 2021 11:21 am

Hi Jon,
Does awareness "experience"?

If so what is it that is not it that it "experiences" ?
No, it seems that awareness and experiencing are different words for the same thing.

Well no, that's not quite true, there cannot be experiencing without awareness but there can be awareness without experiencing so they are not quite the same.
Having said that, awareness without experiencing means awareness of the blankness, which is still an experience, happening within awareness. so are they the same thing or not? I'm not sure, Maybe it doesn't matter?

All of this is going on without the need for a separate self though and that has to be noteworthy.

I've left in my workings-out in case they are useful to you.

Love

Dave
For the joy of it all

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JonathanR
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Re: Walking through the locked door

Postby JonathanR » Sun Jul 11, 2021 9:57 pm

Hi Dave

. Having said that, awareness without experiencing means awareness of the blankness, which is still an experience, happening within awareness. so are they the same thing or not? I'm not sure, Maybe it doesn't matter?
Would you say that "happening within awareness" is another idea that could be dropped, or simplified to just "happening" ?


This "happening within awareness" is an idea that can easily harbour the belief "within my awareness".

If we were to drop the label "awareness", could you possibly rewrite your statement (above)? That might be interesting to try.


Love

Jon

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DaveBadger
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Re: Walking through the locked door

Postby DaveBadger » Mon Jul 12, 2021 6:27 am

Greetings Jon.
A grey day this morning but beautiful for all that,
If we were to drop the label "awareness", could you possibly rewrite your statement (above)? That might be interesting to try.
Sometimes there is an experience of blankness.

Namaste

Dave
For the joy of it all

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JonathanR
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Re: Walking through the locked door

Postby JonathanR » Mon Jul 12, 2021 10:35 pm

Hi Dave

Hmm..bit grey and wet today. Ha ha. Roll on summer.

What about dropping the conceptualisation around "awareness" ? I mean the idea that everything happens 'in it'?

This way of reasoning does imply that there's something like a container or a medium, like water, air or space. Then it follows that "everything is happening" in this medium or container, but also that there could possibly be an outside to this container and/or an "experiencer" of it.

What if, instead of things "happening in awareness" everything is just, well, happening?

In the end, it might be argued, it's just an argument about words. If that's the case though, why mix in extra concepts to describe what's going on?

One can speak or think in terms of "everything happens in awareness and there is only THAT". or it can be said that everything just happens. Is there a difference?

Love

Jon

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DaveBadger
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Re: Walking through the locked door

Postby DaveBadger » Tue Jul 13, 2021 7:09 am

A very good morning to you Jon,

This particular version of paradise has grey skies :-)
One can speak or think in terms of "everything happens in awareness and there is only THAT". or it can be said that everything just happens. Is there a difference?
We could also remove the container by saying "there is only awareness"

And we can remove the notion of time from "everything just happens" by reducing it to "everything is".
This then brings us down to "beingness" which has to be the heart of the matter.

There's not much we can say about beingness, except that it isn't personal.

Love

Dave
For the joy of it all

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JonathanR
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Re: Walking through the locked door

Postby JonathanR » Fri Jul 16, 2021 6:02 am

Hi Dave

. We could also remove the container by saying "there is only awareness"

And we can remove the notion of time from "everything just happens" by reducing it to "everything is".
This then brings us down to "beingness" which has to be the heart of the matter.

There's not much we can say about beingness, except that it isn't personal.
So where does this leave us?

What do you really want from our conversation? From your inquiry here?


love

Jon

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DaveBadger
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Re: Walking through the locked door

Postby DaveBadger » Fri Jul 16, 2021 8:38 am

Good morning Jon,
What do you really want from our conversation? From your inquiry here?
I was hoping for some means of seeing no-self clearly.
I understand it at an intellectual level but it is not firmly rooted in my being.
Maybe it's not possible for me to do it this way, by text dialogue.
There have been many times when we seem to have been dancing around each others words.
There have also been times when I have felt a breakthrough realisation which has been very helpful.
I have a few friends who live no-self and I have regular meetings with them which also helps.
Maybe I just need to wait and it will eventually sink in.

Whatever we decide to do I thank you again for your patience and generosity and I regret any frustration which I have given you.

Namaste

Dave
For the joy of it all

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JonathanR
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Re: Walking through the locked door

Postby JonathanR » Fri Jul 16, 2021 10:10 pm

Hi Dave
. Whatever we decide to do I thank you again for your patience and generosity and I regret any frustration which I have given you.
Oh god Dave. No. It may be frustrating sometimes but who cares? I love the attempt anyway. No apology needed.
. I was hoping for some means of seeing no-self clearly
The view is not obstructed except thinking makes it seem as though it is.
. I understand it at an intellectual level but it is not firmly rooted in my being.
It isn't about us Dave. It isn't a "my experience". How could it ever be rooted in a "my being"?

It never will be rooted in your being any more than it always has been and always will be. There's literally nothing a "you" could do to alter this. That's why there's nothing to do, nothing to develop, nothing to become.
. Maybe it's not possible for me to do it this way, by text dialogue
It's about "seeing" not doing. But I think that some of us guides are going to start offering video or zoom guiding, so that might be worth watching out for?
. There have also been times when I have felt a breakthrough realisation which has been very helpful.
That's very positive.
. I have a few friends who live no-self and I have regular meetings with them which also helps.
Maybe I just need to wait and it will eventually sink in.
Maybe. You know , for some people it isn't actually complicated at all but just seems so and then with a little more time the penny drops, It happens .

Thanks very much for your reply and your appreciation.

We can continue or take a break and return to this later in, if you wish?


Love

Jon

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DaveBadger
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Re: Walking through the locked door

Postby DaveBadger » Sat Jul 17, 2021 7:52 am

Thank you Jon,

Good morning to you.
It may be frustrating sometimes but who cares? I love the attempt anyway. No apology needed.
I'd like to continue then if that's OK with you.
The view is not obstructed except thinking makes it seem as though it is.
I like this reply, I'm sure it's true, although I'm not sure what to do about it - maybe nothing?
There's literally nothing a "you" could do to alter this. That's why there's nothing to do, nothing to develop, nothing to become.
Fair enough
Maybe. You know , for some people it isn't actually complicated at all but just seems so and then with a little more time the penny drops, It happens.
Yes, I'm just waiting for that penny to drop.
some of us guides are going to start offering video or zoom guiding, so that might be worth watching out for?
I think this would be good for me if you decide to do this.

Namaste

Dave
For the joy of it all

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JonathanR
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Re: Walking through the locked door

Postby JonathanR » Sun Jul 18, 2021 11:04 pm

Hi Dave

I'm very glad you wish to continue. I'm just taking a day or two "off" and will get back to you soon.

Best wishes

Jon

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DaveBadger
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Re: Walking through the locked door

Postby DaveBadger » Mon Jul 19, 2021 8:24 am

OK Jon

Dave

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JonathanR
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Re: Walking through the locked door

Postby JonathanR » Tue Jul 20, 2021 7:23 am

Hello Dave

Smashing weather lately 🌞.
. The view is not obstructed except thinking makes it seem as though it is.
I like this reply, I'm sure it's true, although I'm not sure what to do about it - maybe nothing?
Well, there's definitely a message in this somewhere.

I don't know if it would be at all helpful but I remember in the first year after the Gate, reading a few zen sayings that had seemed like nonsense before. They now made sense! Almost overnight. But at the time my favourite was Lonchempa, who said various things including 'Dont meditate! Don't meditate! Don't cage your mind". That struck me as rather radical but there's a message there. Another thing he said (probably to the bewilderment of some monks) was that " there is absolutely no difference whatsoever between the consciousness of an enlightened being and that of an unenlightened one " ! Another little gem.
. Maybe. You know , for some people it isn't actually complicated at all but just seems so and then with a little more time the penny drops, It happens.

Yes, I'm just waiting for that penny to drop.
Better not to be waiting. Waiting implies that the view is imagined to not be already clear and that something ought to happen that isn't already happening.

So what is "the penny"?


Love

Jon

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DaveBadger
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Re: Walking through the locked door

Postby DaveBadger » Tue Jul 20, 2021 8:42 am

Hi Jon,

Another scorcher in prospect.
'Don't meditate! Don't meditate! Don't cage your mind".
I used to have a regular, morning meditation practise based on a Tibetan Buddhist group I had attended.
The call to do this meditation has gradually waned and I no longer feel motivated to do anything in particular in the morning except to sit quietly.
My life in general feels more meditative than it used to be and this feels natural to me now.
The only part of the Tibetan practise that I still keep up is prostrations, but this is mainly as an exercise to keep my back strong.
" there is absolutely no difference whatsoever between the consciousness of an enlightened being and that of an unenlightened one "
I can't argue with this, I probably don't fully grasp though it as it leaves me a little non-plussed.
Better not to be waiting. Waiting implies that the view is imagined to not be already clear and that something ought to happen that isn't already happening.
So what is "the penny"?
Ha yes. For me the waiting is not so much an eager anticipation but more an amused noticing of whatever does happen, when it does. I also don't expect this penny dropping (the realisation of no-self) to be anything special by way of an event.

As a matter of interest I did have a spiritual experience a few years back where I suddenly saw the one-ness of everything.
It only lasted a few seconds but it was very lovely. This is not something I'm craving to get back to. If it happens it happens, if not, no dig deal. I don't set any great store by it but it helped me to know that an experience of oneness is possible and that at the time it felt like truth.

Dave
For the joy of it all


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