Walking through the locked door

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JonathanR
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Re: Walking through the locked door

Postby JonathanR » Wed Jun 30, 2021 8:16 am

Hi Dave

Thanks for your reply.
. Could you please say precisely what it is about the inquiry that makes it serious?
You persuaded me to drop any light-heartedness or humour as it was not helping our communication
It has nothing to do with levity or seriousness. Or of a need to be po-faced.

Did you notice what it was, in those cases, that I was challenging you about? If so could you please tell me what the issue really was, precisely?

. Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen?
please describe these things and how each works, from direct experience
Although there is an illusion of choice and control, in reality, things just happen.
Choices are made, a chain of events takes place, based on the laws of physics, including an element of randomness and unpredictability.
Apart from mentioning the laws of physics you still haven't addressed the questions.

At this point please give examples from life, (today preferably) that demonstrate or reveal how (each of) decision, intention, free will, choice and control happen?

Also, how is it known, from direct experience that anything happens "based in the laws of physics?".

With love

Jon

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JonathanR
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Re: Walking through the locked door

Postby JonathanR » Fri Jul 02, 2021 6:22 am

Hello Dave

Just to let you know that I'm going to be "off grid" for a couple of days. I won't have internet access until Monday , though I'll have it until around mid day today (Friday)

Speak soon

Jon

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DaveBadger
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Re: Walking through the locked door

Postby DaveBadger » Fri Jul 02, 2021 7:03 am

OK thanks Jon,

That will give me the weekend to ponder your questions

Dave
For the joy of it all

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JonathanR
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Re: Walking through the locked door

Postby JonathanR » Sun Jul 04, 2021 7:54 pm

Hi Dave

I've been thinking of saying that all this time that I have been firing challenging questions at you I've been aware of having had to become very strict and somewhat relentless. But I want you to know that I'm actually in there with you and that I have your back. I'm only doing this as a matter of necessity.

It probably seems very frustrating and probably you find yourself trying to think up answers? This is the wrong approach. Don't answer any of my questions from thinking. Answer from your hands, feet, gut...anywhere except mind.



Namaste

Love

Jon

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DaveBadger
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Re: Walking through the locked door

Postby DaveBadger » Mon Jul 05, 2021 7:06 am

Good morning Jon,

Thank you for your reassurance. Our exchange had seemed to become somewhat adversarial and therefore uncomfortable.
I understand the need for your approach now.
It has nothing to do with levity or seriousness. Or of a need to be po-faced.
Did you notice what it was, in those cases, that I was challenging you about? If so could you please tell me what the issue really was, precisely?
You were challenging me when I was using humour or metaphor as a distraction from the main thrust of the question.
Often I did this because I just didn't know what else to say. No words came in direct reply, there was just a blankness, so the only way I had available to me was to answer indirectly. I was not trying to be obtuse.
Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.
Decisions are made. I drive to work, I can take one of several routes. I decide to go one way or the other based on what?
Sometimes on information or observations, sometimes on a whim.

Intentions are formed in response to circumstances. I intend to get to work on time. Sometimes my actions don't match the intentions, out of change of circumstances (something unexpected delays me) or because of laziness or lack of diligence.

It seems that there is free will but much of the time it is very limited by circumstances.

Choice is the range of options available to me on driving to work. I don't know what else to say about it.

It seems that I have some control over what happens in life but ultimately the outcome is rarely what I might predict.

Some thought has gone into these answers despite your plea that it shouldn't. Without the thoughts, no answer comprehensible comes.

I'm really trying my best with all this Jon, but I'm often baffled by the process. Actually, flummoxed might be a better word.

Thank you again for your unending patience.

Dave
For the joy of it all

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DaveBadger
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Re: Walking through the locked door

Postby DaveBadger » Mon Jul 05, 2021 7:09 am

Correction:
Without the thoughts, no comprehensible answer comes.

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JonathanR
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Re: Walking through the locked door

Postby JonathanR » Tue Jul 06, 2021 10:09 am

Hi Dave

My apologies for slowness. I had difficulty accessing LU Gate
. You were challenging me when I was using humour or metaphor as a distraction from the main thrust of the question.
Often I did this because I just didn't know what else to say. No words came in direct reply, there was just a blankness
Blankness is absolutely fine. If blankness is happening report that. It's not helpful for our work here to invent things to say so as to avoid saying "it's blankness"

Because I have no other way of guiding you than to be able to take what you say as a close reflecting your actual experience.
. Decisions are made. I drive to work, I can take one of several routes. I decide to go one way or the other based on what?
Sometimes on information or observations, sometimes on a whim.
When you say "I drive to work" , what is it that does this?
. Sometimes my actions don't match the intentions
How do you know that these actions are "yours"?
. It seems that there is free will but much of the time it is very limited by circumstances.
Please give me a couple of examples of free will (as it seems) in practice?
. It seems that I have some control over what happens in life but ultimately the outcome is rarely what I might predict.
What predicts?
. Some thought has gone into these answers despite your plea that it shouldn't. Without the thoughts, no answer comprehensible comes.
.

Interesting.

Stick with this Dave. As I've said, I'm giving you my best

Love

Jon

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DaveBadger
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Re: Walking through the locked door

Postby DaveBadger » Thu Jul 08, 2021 6:48 am

Good morning Jon,
When you say "I drive to work" , what is it that does this?
There is a body and mind, that others call Dave, that gets into the car and drives.
How do you know that these actions are "yours"?
I don't know this - but it feels like it
Please give me a couple of examples of free will (as it seems) in practice?
Deciding to take one route to work, or another.
Tea or coffee.
What predicts?
The predictions are just thoughts which appear along with many others and influence the decisions made.

I'm really struggling with this Jon.
I've given the best answers that I can but they are as a result of thoughts and I recognise that.
No thoughts, no answers.
What's to do here?

Dave

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JonathanR
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Re: Walking through the locked door

Postby JonathanR » Thu Jul 08, 2021 4:35 pm

Hello Dave


.
. When you say "I drive to work" , what is it that does this?
There is a body and mind, that others call Dave, that gets into the car and drives.
Does an automaton drive to work?

What "does" this driving

Is there aliveness during this?

(The way to notice is to check the experience next time it's actually going on).

I would like you to look closely at the next question Dave. Not using brain power to think up an answer but by taking in the question and really asking it a few times and noticing what comes up...
. Please give me a couple of examples of free will (as it seems) in practice?
Deciding to take one route to work, or another.
Tea or coffee.
If there were free will, as such, wouldn't there have to be a "willer", a "chooser", a "decider"?

If that were so, how could there be no self?

Catch the "decision" the very moment it is made. Do you notice some thing, entity, literally making a decision? ...

Or do decisions appear, happen, from some indeterminate dimension, but, with thoughts that claim decidership, which "say". "I will decide" or "I decided"?

With choosing tea or coffee there are two alternatives. Somehow tea may be "chosen" over coffee (or the opposite). Choices happen, that's clear, as do decisions, but once again, notice the very moment , the "choice-point" . Who or what creates that choice ? What is it that "does the choosing"?

Or are choices happening all the time but with thoughts appearing saying "my choice", "I will choose" or "I chose"? The best way to investigate is to look for any clues right here and now in this very moment , because otherwise, thinking will all be in terms of commentary ABOUT what is assumed to happen and what actually goes on will not be seen.
. I'm really struggling with this Jon.
I've given the best answers that I can but they are as a result of thoughts and I recognise that.
No thoughts, no answers.
What's to do here?
Notice the space in which no answers appear.

Love

Jon

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DaveBadger
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Re: Walking through the locked door

Postby DaveBadger » Thu Jul 08, 2021 5:39 pm

Hi Jon,
Does an automaton drive to work?
What "does" this driving
Yes an automaton, often with no relevant thoughts going on, it just drives to the destination.
Even when there are decisions to be made, to overcome unexpected circumstances, these are just made, by the automaton.
This automaton is quite clever and has been programmed, many moons ago by a driving instructor, and since by years of experiences and mistakes made.
Is there a self in there - no, on looking a see that there isn't, "Dave", the driver, is just a machine made of meat.
Is there aliveness during this?
There is aliveness during this, but there is not a feeling of aliveness doing this.
The aliveness is witnessing Dave as he changes gears etc.
If there were free will, as such, wouldn't there have to be a "willer", a "chooser", a "decider"?
If that were so, how could there be no self?
Yes I see that, and I see how it relates to the meat machine driving the car.

It makes the driver just a zombie, with me the witness of the Zombie's actions.
This is starting to make sense to me now.
Zombie Dave chooses tea or coffee and I look on with amusement and simply experience the taste of the drink.

This is starting to resemble the way things are for me much of the time. I just needed confirmation to see it.
Notice the space in which no answers appear.
Yes.

Namaste

Dave
For the joy of it all

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JonathanR
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Re: Walking through the locked door

Postby JonathanR » Fri Jul 09, 2021 11:02 pm

Hi Dave

. Dave", the driver, is just a machine made of meat.
So there's still an entity here? Albeit a machine-like one?
. The aliveness is witnessing Dave as he changes gears etc.
So "you" imagine yourself to be "awareness, witnessing" a separate, machine-like meat robot entity called "Dave"?

Are you sure ?

Love

Jon

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DaveBadger
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Re: Walking through the locked door

Postby DaveBadger » Fri Jul 09, 2021 11:23 pm

Good evening Jon,
So there's still an entity here? Albeit a machine-like one?
It seems like there are many entities here, the automaton, the steering wheel, the car, the road, the sky.
So "you" imagine yourself to be "awareness, witnessing" a separate, machine-like meat robot entity called "Dave"?
Are you sure ?
No, I'm not sure. It feels like this is a step along the road for me, and a later step might be different again.
There is though a feeling of freedom in being the awareness.

Dave
For the joy of it all

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JonathanR
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Re: Walking through the locked door

Postby JonathanR » Sat Jul 10, 2021 7:59 am

Hello Dave


. So "you" imagine yourself to be "awareness, witnessing" a separate, machine-like meat robot entity called "Dave"?
Are you sure ?
No, I'm not sure. It feels like this is a step along the road for me, and a later step might be different again.
There is though a feeling of freedom in being the awareness.
So there's definitely an idea of a self that takes steps along a road?

And an idea of being awareness watching stuff happen from some subtly separated position?


Jon

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DaveBadger
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Re: Walking through the locked door

Postby DaveBadger » Sat Jul 10, 2021 8:07 am

So there's definitely an idea of a self that takes steps along a road?

And an idea of being awareness watching stuff happen from some subtly separated position?
Yes, that's the way it is.

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JonathanR
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Re: Walking through the locked door

Postby JonathanR » Sat Jul 10, 2021 8:43 am

. And an idea of being awareness watching stuff happen from some subtly separated position?
Yes, that's the way it is.
What separation?


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